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 bullyboy wrote:
Chaos force takes Cypher, makes him warlord.....immediately has ability to add an assassin to the army

Oh gak...Cypher might too big of a drag though.

Looks like they saw how good the new GSC characters were at assassinations and decided the super assassins needed a bump.

They look good for there points, not super broken but actually useful.

I think it's the ability to pick and choose the best one depending on opponent that may be a little too much though, heavy list tailoring at the start of a match seems like a bad idea.

Can’t wait to make 16 attacks with an eversor, consolidate 6” make 16 more then blow up 6”

As an Imperium player, why wouldn't you just hold 85pts aside and take one every game? They do look to be CP hungry, but it's not exactly like Imperium is starved for CP.

A Vindicare can easely even gain you CP in the course of the game, and pay for his own stratagems by killing characters.

The nice part is I can sorta make a Brigade or two Battalions with Skitarii. Creating conversions for one of each Assassin might be a good amount of fun!

Kommisar wrote:Can’t wait to make 16 attacks with an eversor, consolidate 6” make 16 more then blow up 6”

It's one bonus attack per kill, not even per hit. With either a completely vanilla power sword or a worse lightning claw, you're not going to be killing six models with his initial attacks. A couple of guardsmen or about a primaris marine each time he fights isn't exactly insane.

Galas wrote:A Vindicare can easely even gain you CP in the course of the game, and pay for his own stratagems by killing characters.

He's spending one CP a turn (assuming you're planning on double tapping) on top of the one to bring him in the first place. He only generates one per kill (and at effective ~D3, you'll need two turns per character you care about killing) since you still have to pay for the strat to gain them, which limits you to a max of one refunded per turn and, likely, only one every other turn or so.

Let's not run around like the sky is falling, none of these are that insane. The best part is the ability to pick the one you'll need that fight, but without that you'd never take such situationally useful utility pieces anyway.

It looks like the Culexus is pretty dang durable. Enemies count as being WS and BS 6 when trying to hit him, and no psychic power effect him.

Yesssssss my Vindicare will finally see more action!

 cuda1179 wrote:
It looks like the Culexus is pretty dang durable. Enemies count as being WS and BS 6 when trying to hit him, and no psychic power effect him.

Eh, just drown him in something cheap. Either your chaff eventually clubs him to death (besides the ws/bs thing he's less durable than a combat squad of tac marines) or he spends all game punching a few guardsmen to death. He's not a fan of flamers, though, as those don't care a whit about bs.

It is a little funny that one of the best counters to a Culexus seems to be a Vindicare, though, as he ignores everything his brother assassin has to protect him (hits on a flat 2+ regardless of bs/modifiers, ignores invuls, can target characters).

The Vindicare looks great, the addition of the Headshot rule is pretty sweet. Headshot is essentially the same as the psychic power Psychic Maelstrom, but without having to roll to see if the power goes off, and it's in addition to the already D3 damage.

It's like getting Smite + Maelstrom off from a Primaris Psyker, just limited to only infantry as a target.

So instead of taking Psykers to try to do mortal wounds, just take a Vindicare, and cast "level 10 Bullet!"

I'm happy with the Callidus. 2 dmg phase sword and that -1 to hit strategem that pretty much guarentees a successful charge. Does it cancel overwatch too, or do 6's always hit regardless?

Correct me if I'm wrong
Bring on a Vindicare (-1cp)
Use Double Kill (-1cp) target low wound characters, with Head Shot has a chance of killing both
Use Priority Threat Neutralised on both (-2cp) (+4cp)
Gain a Assassin, kill two enemy characters, come out even on command points.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong
Bring on a Vindicare (-1cp)
Use Double Kill (-1cp) target low wound characters, with Head Shot has a chance of killing both
Use Priority Threat Neutralised on both (-2cp) (+4cp)
Gain a Assassin, kill two enemy characters, come out even on command points.

You can't use a stratagem more than once per turn, so you cannot get more than 2 CP (3 if killing a warlord) back from him.

He's also going to only average ~2-3 damage per turn, so while good, it's not guaranteed he'll kill stuff.

I think the stratagem is more about selling models. If you do not know what you need....most players will want the whole cast to choose from. So this just helps feed the marketing.

I was wrong.

 p5freak wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
For 1 CP, I can get an assassin without having to have a dedicated attachment for them? No more Aux detachment for - CP? So I can have my 3 detachments AND an assassin?

Even better, because its used during deployment, you could add 10 of them Its not limited by the only one stratagem per phase rule

Read it again, you can use the stratagem only once per battle.

Spoletta wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
For 1 CP, I can get an assassin without having to have a dedicated attachment for them? No more Aux detachment for - CP? So I can have my 3 detachments AND an assassin?

Even better, because its used during deployment, you could add 10 of them Its not limited by the only one stratagem per phase rule

Read it again, you can use the stratagem only once per battle.

Yes, sorry.

Slight change to the Culexus as I believe the original rules for his -2 to psychic tests didn't affect friendly models and now it does.

 Trimarius wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:Headshot looks entirely stupid also. Goodbye any Ork character. I'm rapidly losing faith in GWs ability to balance this game.

How is that an issue for Ork characters, specifically? It works out to be about three damage a shot, on average. It's not great for Weird Boyz, with all that self-inflicted damage, but that's neither new nor unique to Orks.

Well the vast majority of our characters only have 4W and a 6+ so do the maths. Oh and we don't get to take a KFF against it either. It's way over the top.

Well the vast majority of our characters only have 4W and a 6+ so do the maths. Oh and we don't get to take a KFF against it either. It's way over the top.

I don't see that hes much better vs orks than anything else, noone gets their invul save and even marines are reduced to a 6+ for their armour. I suppose terminator still have a okish save but then again so do megaarmoured boss/mech.

With these guys and the genestealer cults on the rise it would appear that gw is trying to discourage the mass bluffing characters meta or at least give some tools against it. Not a bad thing over all as the game would be better if more actual standard units were used.

Would CP generation by this mechanic fall under the normal CP generation restriction, ie one per battle round?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:Headshot looks entirely stupid also. Goodbye any Ork character. I'm rapidly losing faith in GWs ability to balance this game.

How is that an issue for Ork characters, specifically? It works out to be about three damage a shot, on average. It's not great for Weird Boyz, with all that self-inflicted damage, but that's neither new nor unique to Orks.

Well the vast majority of our characters only have 4W and a 6+ so do the maths. Oh and we don't get to take a KFF against it either. It's way over the top.

That's the same situation of many other factions. A librarian is 4W, like a Lt. The only difference between shooting a marine char or an Ork is a 6+ save.

This actually gives some more value to primaris chars, as they have an additional wound.

All AM chars are 4w too.

torblind wrote:
Would CP generation by this mechanic fall under the normal CP generation restriction, ie one per battle round?

Yes.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Well the vast majority of our characters only have 4W and a 6+ so do the maths. Oh and we don't get to take a KFF against it either. It's way over the top.

I don't see that hes much better vs orks than anything else, noone gets their invul save and even marines are reduced to a 6+ for their armour. I suppose terminator still have a okish save but then again so do megaarmoured boss/mech.

With these guys and the genestealer cults on the rise it would appear that gw is trying to discourage the mass bluffing characters meta or at least give some tools against it. Not a bad thing over all as the game would be better if more actual standard units were used.

Its probably because Orks have an over reliance on their characters to get around glaring weaknesses and the megarmoured boss doesn't exist outside of index. A save of any sort is infinitely better than no save. To be clear, this hurts any faction with low save, low wound characters.

For Orks specifically;

A SAG Big Mek is virtually mandatory to combat armour. Vindicares make him redundant.

A weirdboy is mandatory to get Boyz across the board. One perils means average Vindicares rolls kills you. Guaranteed.

A KFF Big Mek/MA Mek is mandatory to help with durability.

We can only use Grot Shields once per round (if we're lucky) so that doesn't help when the enemy can fire at two characters at once.

This reeks of GW creating an overpowered mess because they are unsure his to fix assassins. No army should be able to list tailor to their opponent on the fly. It's so obviously a poor design decision it even looks stupid when written down. Its introducing more mechanic breaking elements to the game and taking us closer and closer to the balance mess of 7th.

By the way the assassins could easily be the nail in the coffin for the ynnari at the competitive level.

Catlady, farseers, warlocks...so many good targets for many of the assassins.

I can easily see many imp list taking the full assassination force (and why you wouldn't for only 340?) and then using the stratagem to double down on the most needed assassin.

Another list which is heavily impacted by this list is the Tsons SCD. I will just spend a CP and put a culexus as the nearest target during deployment.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

Well the vast majority of our characters only have 4W and a 6+ so do the maths. Oh and we don't get to take a KFF against it either. It's way over the top.

I don't see that hes much better vs orks than anything else, noone gets their invul save and even marines are reduced to a 6+ for their armour. I suppose terminator still have a okish save but then again so do megaarmoured boss/mech.

With these guys and the genestealer cults on the rise it would appear that gw is trying to discourage the mass bluffing characters meta or at least give some tools against it. Not a bad thing over all as the game would be better if more actual standard units were used.

Its probably because Orks have an over reliance on their characters to get around glaring weaknesses and the megarmoured boss doesn't exist outside of index. A save of any sort is infinitely better than no save. To be clear, this hurts any faction with low save, low wound characters.

For Orks specifically;

A SAG Big Mek is virtually mandatory to combat armour. Vindicares make him redundant.

A weirdboy is mandatory to get Boyz across the board. One perils means average Vindicares rolls kills you. Guaranteed.

A KFF Big Mek/MA Mek is mandatory to help with durability.

We can only use Grot Shields once per round (if we're lucky) so that doesn't help when the enemy can fire at two characters at once.

This reeks of GW creating an overpowered mess because they are unsure his to fix assassins. No army should be able to list tailor to their opponent on the fly. It's so obviously a poor design decision it even looks stupid when written down. Its introducing more mechanic breaking elements to the game and taking us closer and closer to the balance mess of 7th.

You realise that summoning for chaos also allows you to list tailor right?

But i gotta agree, charachter requiring armies now will face some significant threat.

I would actually be in favor of MORE list tailoring,it's a good thing for the game.

WM/H in the end was forced to accept this too.

Spoletta wrote:
I would actually be in favor of MORE list tailoring,it's a good thing for the game.

WM/H in the end was forced to accept this too.

one of the issues is that GW will forget about this for 6 months, and then a bunch of armys are left stuffed for an edition again.
With WM/H they do seem to at the very least design every faction to be playing the same game.

So i am sad to see it come like this, When a edition change. Or a full book and mini release for a bunch of army would have been better.
Something like a campagn book that try and give everyone a little something would have been great with this.

Not Online!!! wrote:

You realise that summoning for chaos also allows you to list tailor right?

Indeed but summoning is not automatic so there is a justified risk to that list tailoring, right?

Apple fox wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I would actually be in favor of MORE list tailoring,it's a good thing for the game.

WM/H in the end was forced to accept this too.

one of the issues is that GW will forget about this for 6 months, and then a bunch of armys are left stuffed for an edition again.
With WM/H they do seem to at the very least design every faction to be playing the same game.

So i am sad to see it come like this, When a edition change. Or a full book and mini release for a bunch of army would have been better.
Something like a campagn book that try and give everyone a little something would have been great with this.

Exactly. List tailoring is fine when all armies are able to do it to the same extent or if there is an element of risk/reward.

Just as Apple fox has said, GW will leave this to Imperium players only and other factions will be gak outta luck, effectively playing a different game.