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2019/02/28 21:19:21
Subject: Re:Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
All the various model kits for the standard space marines are "free money" for GW: no new dies to be made, just pound out plastic.
I would agree that a terribly slow phase-out with "non-optimal" rules for them will help point people to the new hotness of any Primarus Marine models to help pay off those expensive new dies for the models.
I heard the rumor that the "plan" is like with 30k of having entire units with the same weapon to make gameplay easy/fast than sprinkling in special and heavy weapons in a squad and that is how Primarus seems to function.
My Black Templar ancient mainly metal army is not quite ready to become Squat, my plan is I have other armies and all spare Primarus I have are Deathwatch for now.
They just do not have enough variety at this time to be all that useful other than DW gave them a bit of a leg-up.
The way I look at it: Primaris will need new everything, in particular I am thinking vehicles.
This may take a very long time.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2019/02/28 21:33:36
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: I mean, I really don't think that Catachans should be S4, but that's kinda another discussion.
The Marines have been described as seven feet (or a bit more) tall in the fluff for ages, so now that we finally have models that are actually scaled to be that tall compared to the normal humans, it is a bit weird that some people think it looks 'wrong.'
thing is even if we ignore catachans, S4 has some marked variation, Primaris Marines are noticably stronger, with implants that enhance their strength, but are STILL S4 so... yeah. granted I think the enhanced STR is, oddly, designed to justify the INCREASED ATTACKS primaris get
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/02/28 21:34:38
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Insectum7 wrote: Anyone happen to have a pic of a metal SOB next to a Sisters of Silence model?
Metal SoB are pretty short, SoS are really tall. I own both, but no pictures for you, since my SoS are currently on the other side of the nation [also, they haven't been out of their box since the edition dropped].
Sisters of Silence are taller than other models by like a head, though. Like, almost absurdly tall.
I don't have a picture of them standing next to Sisters of Battle but I do have one standing next to a Custodian from back when I was doing them up:
Spoiler:
It's not the best angle, but it's the only picture I could find in my records of one standing with another model. A guardsman comes up to the Custodian's chest, she comes up to his shoulder, and SoB are about as big as Guardsmen, so she's about a head taller than other models. She stands over Space Marines.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/02/28 21:56:04
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/02/28 21:57:32
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Yep, they are scaled to be about seven and half feet tall, which is good size for Space Marines.
We're supposed to assume that a Catachan guardsman is just as strong as an 8 foot tall genetically engineered super soldier. Size matters when determining strength. Primaris are nonsense in size.
How are they nonsense in size when the models are finally scaled to the size the marines are in the fluff?
This is ultimately an issue of the granularity of the game system. Strength runs within a certain scale, that scale is all whole numbers, and the strength scale really doesn't represent all the aspects of strength in a real world context.
You have Strength 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc... Where strength 3 is a typical human and strength 4 is the typical space marine. There is however a spectrum of human strength in between. Where do characters portrayed in cinema by Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone fall on this spectrum? - Because that's ultimately what Catachans are suppose to be. Their portrayed strength is more than average, being fictional, their fictional characters' strength is arguably on the edge human possibility, but just inside superhuman. For GW that's enough to justify it. There are however living individuals stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger was at his peak, who could also be regarded similarly as Strength 4 humans.
Your hang up though is ultimately a question of what does strength 4 mean when a space marine and a Schwarzenegger analogue are both strength 4? And then what does it mean to be a space marine, if they are "only strength 4"?
To put it in a different context... you have two military jets... both capable of Mach 1.2, this is like our strength value, a threshold line in the sand. One of those jets has to fly with afterburners to achieve that speed, the other can do it just cruising and without afterburners. The aircraft with afterburners will typically have to slow down and turn off their afterburners after an amount of time or risk permanent damage. This is our Catachan. The aircraft flying in cruise can do it until it runs out of fuel or gets shot down. This is our marine... although to continue the analogy this jet not only super cruises its an armored tank with a nearly infinite fuel supply and that is ultimately as much of what makes a space marine super human.
The average soldier performs all the different weight lifting in the ball park of 125lbs to 150lbs; that is what strength 3 represents. Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak was performing all the different lifts in a weight range of 525lbs to 750lbs. He could be kitted as a fully equipped soldier and additionally carry an average sized soldier equally equipped without necessarily hitting his peak strength. This is easily in the realm of picking up an unladen person and throwing them or knocking them so hard they're catching some air. His workouts were typically 5 hours a day, which speaks to his level of endurance to perform in this generally high domain. The man generally regarded as the strongest man in the world, Björnsson, the man who played "the Mountain" in the Game of Thrones tv show... he is our closest human analogue to a Space Marine, where he's 440lbs 6ft-9in and he performs many of his lifts and challenges at 900lbs+, but deadlifts 1000lbs+ and performs a log carry at 1400lbs+. I will use him as a baseline to ultimately compare how far removed in "strength" a space marine might be.
Space Marines, like normal people vary in size and capabilities, and through fiction have run the gambit... so any comparison has to keep that in mind, and assume much of the most over the top descriptions of marines are extreme outliers. GW's most often stated stats on a space marine is that unarmored they are minimally 7ft tall and weigh in at 700lbs. The weight difference to Bjornsson is 260lbs, but that includes the generally larger scale, their black carapace and other implants, 20 extra organs, their increased bone density, and only after the extra muscle they have over Bjornsson.
Bones for a typical human compose 15% of our overall weight, for a 700lbs normal human that would be 107lbs. Space marines however have increased bone density as part of their toughness... human bone density is typically around 1.24 g/cm^3, while the largest land mammal, the elephant, is 1.7g/cm^3... this is about 30% greater and I think serves as a good approximation for a marine. This makes a space marine's bones roughly 146lbs of their weight... meaning of the 260lbs difference 78lbs of that is additional bone mass.
In a similar way we can account for the added mass of a space marines organs and skin from just being larger... you get an additional 26lbs for the additional skin and 36lbs for the larger, otherwise natural, organs. At this point you have to attempt to account for the implanted space marine organs. Going by their descriptions we can infer the mass of these different organs relative to particular analogous standard human organs; without giving you a spread sheet it ends up coming to about an additional 56lbs. From this we can assume the remaining mass difference of a space marine is pure added muscle, but its really only 64lbs.
When we take the mass of Bjornsson's constituent parts we're left with 200lbs +/-20lb of him is muscle. And if we add up the constituent parts of a space marine he ends up at 264lbs +/- 20lbs of muscle. A space marine has 30% more muscle mass than the strongest man in the world.
We know a space marine receives lots of hormones, but we don't know if their muscles aren't just bigger but different. But just going by this muscle mass a space marine can dead lift and squat a full sized sedan, completely off the ground by himself. Bjornsson can only turn that sedan over on its side. Schwarzenegger can only lift the front end while the rear wheels stay on the ground.
Of a space marine's 700lbs, beyond a normal human a good amount of what makes a marine is going into that toughness 4, but just as much does make it into that Strength 4. But I think the aspect of strength and what makes a marine a marine, isn't as much their peak strength as it is their high endurance. The average Strength 3 guardsmen, can't lift a car but compared to a body builder that soldier can perform at their modest peak level for longer. While a Schwarzenegger or Catachans might be Strength 4 realistically this represents a surge strength, an occasional and concerted effort of peak performance that can't be sustained for as long as a space marine can. So while a marines relative mass and size might make you think they should just be stronger, a lot of the gain is really their endurance and toughness. A lot of it is also peak potential and longevity; at 200 years old a space marine could likely have trained themselves even further beyond that baseline performance, even further beyond human.
So if it helps you think about it, Strength 4 is a bench mark and not a proportional measure of all aspects of strength. If we lined up everything that was Strength 4 in order of strength this Catachan is at one end of the spectrum while space marines are at the other. Strength 4 is "can what this model represent lift a car?" Where strength 5 is a higher threshold that even primaris, despite being stronger than a typical marine can't quite reach... maybe that threshold is to punch a car some distance, I don't know. Its abstract to a degree so you have to give it elbow room.
Top that off, the marine is sardined into a suit of poweredarmor that at the very least has an exoskeleton structure that offsets its weight and allows the marine to react at a speed at last matching being unarmored. I wouldn’t doubt the armor’s exoskeleton gives the marine even further enhanced strength (as well as NBC and vacuum protection). It’s also one of the most protective armor on the battlefield, beaten only by even heavier marine armor such as Gravis and Dreadnought armor. It makes me chuckle when people say the armor looks bulky - it is, considering it has the potential to stop auto cannon rounds! To me, primaris look more like they are giants inside a suit of armor whereas old marines are scaled as if they are wearing t-shirts, bell-bottoms and 80’s shoulderpads.
It never ends well
2019/02/28 22:15:21
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Personally I think this is the time to buy. Because I am having my Primaris White Scars commission painted, being able to do them a couple of boxes at a time is really making the cost far easier for me. I realize everyone may not have that in mind, but for those who do, this is a good time to get the 4-7 characters you might want and the basic troops and so on built and painted. Just like with my Stormcast, I expect in a year or two the line will be a lot more flushed out as time goes on.
As for the aesthetics, I really think it's useless to argue about something like that. Many people like them, many people don't. It doesn't really seem to matter however, as this is what they are and how they look, that's not likely to change. You cannot please everyone.
2019/02/28 22:40:11
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Yep, they are scaled to be about seven and half feet tall, which is good size for Space Marines.
We're supposed to assume that a Catachan guardsman is just as strong as an 8 foot tall genetically engineered super soldier. Size matters when determining strength. Primaris are nonsense in size.
How are they nonsense in size when the models are finally scaled to the size the marines are in the fluff?
This is ultimately an issue of the granularity of the game system. Strength runs within a certain scale, that scale is all whole numbers, and the strength scale really doesn't represent all the aspects of strength in a real world context.
You have Strength 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc... Where strength 3 is a typical human and strength 4 is the typical space marine. There is however a spectrum of human strength in between. Where do characters portrayed in cinema by Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone fall on this spectrum? - Because that's ultimately what Catachans are suppose to be. Their portrayed strength is more than average, being fictional, their fictional characters' strength is arguably on the edge human possibility, but just inside superhuman. For GW that's enough to justify it. There are however living individuals stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger was at his peak, who could also be regarded similarly as Strength 4 humans.
Your hang up though is ultimately a question of what does strength 4 mean when a space marine and a Schwarzenegger analogue are both strength 4? And then what does it mean to be a space marine, if they are "only strength 4"?
To put it in a different context... you have two military jets... both capable of Mach 1.2, this is like our strength value, a threshold line in the sand. One of those jets has to fly with afterburners to achieve that speed, the other can do it just cruising and without afterburners. The aircraft with afterburners will typically have to slow down and turn off their afterburners after an amount of time or risk permanent damage. This is our Catachan. The aircraft flying in cruise can do it until it runs out of fuel or gets shot down. This is our marine... although to continue the analogy this jet not only super cruises its an armored tank with a nearly infinite fuel supply and that is ultimately as much of what makes a space marine super human.
The average soldier performs all the different weight lifting in the ball park of 125lbs to 150lbs; that is what strength 3 represents. Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak was performing all the different lifts in a weight range of 525lbs to 750lbs. He could be kitted as a fully equipped soldier and additionally carry an average sized soldier equally equipped without necessarily hitting his peak strength. This is easily in the realm of picking up an unladen person and throwing them or knocking them so hard they're catching some air. His workouts were typically 5 hours a day, which speaks to his level of endurance to perform in this generally high domain. The man generally regarded as the strongest man in the world, Björnsson, the man who played "the Mountain" in the Game of Thrones tv show... he is our closest human analogue to a Space Marine, where he's 440lbs 6ft-9in and he performs many of his lifts and challenges at 900lbs+, but deadlifts 1000lbs+ and performs a log carry at 1400lbs+. I will use him as a baseline to ultimately compare how far removed in "strength" a space marine might be.
Space Marines, like normal people vary in size and capabilities, and through fiction have run the gambit... so any comparison has to keep that in mind, and assume much of the most over the top descriptions of marines are extreme outliers. GW's most often stated stats on a space marine is that unarmored they are minimally 7ft tall and weigh in at 700lbs. The weight difference to Bjornsson is 260lbs, but that includes the generally larger scale, their black carapace and other implants, 20 extra organs, their increased bone density, and only after the extra muscle they have over Bjornsson.
Bones for a typical human compose 15% of our overall weight, for a 700lbs normal human that would be 107lbs. Space marines however have increased bone density as part of their toughness... human bone density is typically around 1.24 g/cm^3, while the largest land mammal, the elephant, is 1.7g/cm^3... this is about 30% greater and I think serves as a good approximation for a marine. This makes a space marine's bones roughly 146lbs of their weight... meaning of the 260lbs difference 78lbs of that is additional bone mass.
In a similar way we can account for the added mass of a space marines organs and skin from just being larger... you get an additional 26lbs for the additional skin and 36lbs for the larger, otherwise natural, organs. At this point you have to attempt to account for the implanted space marine organs. Going by their descriptions we can infer the mass of these different organs relative to particular analogous standard human organs; without giving you a spread sheet it ends up coming to about an additional 56lbs. From this we can assume the remaining mass difference of a space marine is pure added muscle, but its really only 64lbs.
When we take the mass of Bjornsson's constituent parts we're left with 200lbs +/-20lb of him is muscle. And if we add up the constituent parts of a space marine he ends up at 264lbs +/- 20lbs of muscle. A space marine has 30% more muscle mass than the strongest man in the world.
We know a space marine receives lots of hormones, but we don't know if their muscles aren't just bigger but different. But just going by this muscle mass a space marine can dead lift and squat a full sized sedan, completely off the ground by himself. Bjornsson can only turn that sedan over on its side. Schwarzenegger can only lift the front end while the rear wheels stay on the ground.
Of a space marine's 700lbs, beyond a normal human a good amount of what makes a marine is going into that toughness 4, but just as much does make it into that Strength 4. But I think the aspect of strength and what makes a marine a marine, isn't as much their peak strength as it is their high endurance. The average Strength 3 guardsmen, can't lift a car but compared to a body builder that soldier can perform at their modest peak level for longer. While a Schwarzenegger or Catachans might be Strength 4 realistically this represents a surge strength, an occasional and concerted effort of peak performance that can't be sustained for as long as a space marine can. So while a marines relative mass and size might make you think they should just be stronger, a lot of the gain is really their endurance and toughness. A lot of it is also peak potential and longevity; at 200 years old a space marine could likely have trained themselves even further beyond that baseline performance, even further beyond human.
So if it helps you think about it, Strength 4 is a bench mark and not a proportional measure of all aspects of strength. If we lined up everything that was Strength 4 in order of strength this Catachan is at one end of the spectrum while space marines are at the other. Strength 4 is "can what this model represent lift a car?" Where strength 5 is a higher threshold that even primaris, despite being stronger than a typical marine can't quite reach... maybe that threshold is to punch a car some distance, I don't know. Its abstract to a degree so you have to give it elbow room.
Top that off, the marine is sardined into a suit of poweredarmor that at the very least has an exoskeleton structure that offsets its weight and allows the marine to react at a speed at last matching being unarmored. I wouldn’t doubt the armor’s exoskeleton gives the marine even further enhanced strength (as well as NBC and vacuum protection). It’s also one of the most protective armor on the battlefield, beaten only by even heavier marine armor such as Gravis and Dreadnought armor. It makes me chuckle when people say the armor looks bulky - it is, considering it has the potential to stop auto cannon rounds! To me, primaris look more like they are giants inside a suit of armor whereas old marines are scaled as if they are wearing t-shirts, bell-bottoms and 80’s shoulderpads.
The way I've thought of it when it comes to power armor and its "strength enhancement".... because of the black carapace and how the power armor interfaces with the marines, they have a lot of control over the armor. They've been described as using that control to lock the joints and servos to brace themselves when shooting particularly heavy weapons.
To think about the advantage this controlled rigidity gives them... we can use Bruce Lee as an example, in addition to being strong much of his personal training was to control his muscles so that even when he punched you from an inch away, he was using all the muscles throughout his body to drive that punch. So a space marine is basically able to use his power armor to assist him to do something akin to that... but not only when punching. Additionally in punching and everything else, the rigidity means there wouldn't be any bounce back... a marine fist hits and connects and delivers 100% of the force behind it. So while power armor compensates for its weight, and allows a space marine to take full advantage of their reflexes, it wouldn't need to supplement his strength much if at all if it instead makes the force he applies that much more efficient.
2019/02/28 22:57:56
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Currently Scouts un-powered are also S4. However they are also plenty lighter. I think the Marine-in-armor bonus strength is because they have that power-supply backpack+armor, and more notably they can easily carry their heavy weapons with lots of extra ammunition or requisite power supplies. Compare the Scout with a Heavy Bolter and small box of ammo to the Marine with a Heavy Bolter and the piles of extra ammo and chain feed. One could assume that a power armored marine can more easily lug more supplies around.
Insectum7 wrote: Anyone happen to have a pic of a metal SOB next to a Sisters of Silence model?
Metal SoB are pretty short, SoS are really tall. I own both, but no pictures for you, since my SoS are currently on the other side of the nation [also, they haven't been out of their box since the edition dropped].
Sisters of Silence are taller than other models by like a head, though. Like, almost absurdly tall.
I don't have a picture of them standing next to Sisters of Battle but I do have one standing next to a Custodian from back when I was doing them up:
Spoiler:
It's not the best angle, but it's the only picture I could find in my records of one standing with another model. A guardsman comes up to the Custodian's chest, she comes up to his shoulder, and SoB are about as big as Guardsmen, so she's about a head taller than other models. She stands over Space Marines.
Not quite what I was looking for but the given description is good enough for now. Thanks!
Maybe I can dig up a SOB and get lucky with what people bring this weekend. Sometimes the SOS make an appearance.
Aren't Escher like, giant women, just like Goliats? They are taller than normal necromunda humans like Orlocks.
If you want modern "normal human" GW scale, just look at things like Skitarii and Genestealer Cultists, both for male and female. Things like Goliaths from Necromunda or various chaos miniatures from AoS are not "Normal slim humans", but "ultra muscular taller humans"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 23:27:25
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/02/28 23:38:34
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Insectum7 wrote: Currently Scouts un-powered are also S4. However they are also plenty lighter. I think the Marine-in-armor bonus strength is because they have that power-supply backpack+armor, and more notably they can easily carry their heavy weapons with lots of extra ammunition or requisite power supplies. Compare the Scout with a Heavy Bolter and small box of ammo to the Marine with a Heavy Bolter and the piles of extra ammo and chain feed. One could assume that a power armored marine can more easily lug more supplies around.
Insectum7 wrote: Anyone happen to have a pic of a metal SOB next to a Sisters of Silence model?
Metal SoB are pretty short, SoS are really tall. I own both, but no pictures for you, since my SoS are currently on the other side of the nation [also, they haven't been out of their box since the edition dropped].
Sisters of Silence are taller than other models by like a head, though. Like, almost absurdly tall.
I don't have a picture of them standing next to Sisters of Battle but I do have one standing next to a Custodian from back when I was doing them up:
Spoiler:
It's not the best angle, but it's the only picture I could find in my records of one standing with another model. A guardsman comes up to the Custodian's chest, she comes up to his shoulder, and SoB are about as big as Guardsmen, so she's about a head taller than other models. She stands over Space Marines.
Not quite what I was looking for but the given description is good enough for now. Thanks!
Maybe I can dig up a SOB and get lucky with what people bring this weekend. Sometimes the SOS make an appearance.
Here's a Sister and Custodian picture I just took.
Spoiler:
You can see, her head is about chest high on him, and the SoS in the earlier picture isn't too much shorter. Unfortunately, I don't bring my SoS with me everywhere, since they're pretty bad, so I can't take a side-by-side SoB and SoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 23:40:56
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/02/28 23:43:24
Subject: Re:Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
I think the real answer to the question posed in the thread title is, 'do you want support for old marines to continue?' If you do, keep buying them, show GW that the market still wants them. I expect a lull in new boxes of them until GW has time to gauge the long term sales response to the introduction of primaris.
2019/03/01 13:14:00
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Galas wrote: Aren't Escher like, giant women, just like Goliats? They are taller than normal necromunda humans like Orlocks.
If you want modern "normal human" GW scale, just look at things like Skitarii and Genestealer Cultists, both for male and female. Things like Goliaths from Necromunda or various chaos miniatures from AoS are not "Normal slim humans", but "ultra muscular taller humans"
No, they're just modeled on tippy-toes and they're all wearing heels.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/03/01 13:59:19
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
I want to see the continuation of classic marines, I think the Space Marines as a faction are more interesting with the distinctive division of old marines vs Primaris.
If GW phases out old marines in favor of just Primaris I think it would really narrow the way Space Marines play, for the worse. On the other hand there have always been those players that wanted space marines to feel more overtly high tech and Primaris fill that desire. If that’s something you want, great.
I’ve always had one issue with GWs approach to SM the last couple of editions... unit bloat... things like the centurions and some of the other units that feel forced and like someone going down a checklist of things that make other armies distinctive and designing the space marine equivalent. Marines have ended up with a lot of redundancy and could stand to phase out some units... so replacing things with Primaris is a good thing.
Ultimately I’d like to see classic marines kept in game, with some units phased out, but a narratively driven and game play driven intent to elevate SM... For example as time goes on if a greater proportion of marines are Primaris some chapters may see all their conventional marines gradually becoming veterans without as many conventional marines being created... for such an SM chapter basic Tactical/Assault/Devastator Squads might not be available any more but Sternguard/Vanguard/Centurion are... or a chapter that only bestow Primaris enhancements on their veterans retain Tactical/Assault/Devastator but not Sternguard/Vanguard/Centurions... the point is it’s a choice that needs to have a clearly articulated idea behind it.
2019/03/01 16:32:13
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Zustiur wrote: I think the real answer to the question posed in the thread title is, 'do you want support for old marines to continue?' If you do, keep buying them, show GW that the market still wants them. I expect a lull in new boxes of them until GW has time to gauge the long term sales response to the introduction of primaris.
My answer would be “switch everything to Primaris, already”. And that is coming from someone who has some 400+ Oldmarines, with models stretching back to the RT01 marines, vehicles and even a handful of 3rd party marines.
It never ends well
2019/03/01 17:13:05
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Zustiur wrote: I think the real answer to the question posed in the thread title is, 'do you want support for old marines to continue?' If you do, keep buying them, show GW that the market still wants them. I expect a lull in new boxes of them until GW has time to gauge the long term sales response to the introduction of primaris.
My answer would be “switch everything to Primaris, already”. And that is coming from someone who has some 400+ Oldmarines, with models stretching back to the RT01 marines, vehicles and even a handful of 3rd party marines.
My answer would be to keep the two lines running. And that's from someone with 30+ years in The Hobby. I have from RTB01 to Dark Vengeance marines. The models have gotten demonstrably better. I do have Primaris as well, and they are excellent models but suck on the table.
What would really hurt is if GW "Thunderwarriors" the older marines - the real Space Marines and primaris marines are written into the fluff to co-exist, so GW would have to resolve the two factions in the fluff if they intend to quit production of one or the other.
2019/03/01 17:19:25
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Crimson wrote: Yep, they are scaled to be about seven and half feet tall, which is good size for Space Marines.
We're supposed to assume that a Catachan guardsman is just as strong as an 8 foot tall genetically engineered super soldier. Size matters when determining strength. Primaris are nonsense in size.
How are they nonsense in size when the models are finally scaled to the size the marines are in the fluff?
This is ultimately an issue of the granularity of the game system. Strength runs within a certain scale, that scale is all whole numbers, and the strength scale really doesn't represent all the aspects of strength in a real world context.
You have Strength 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc... Where strength 3 is a typical human and strength 4 is the typical space marine. There is however a spectrum of human strength in between. Where do characters portrayed in cinema by Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone fall on this spectrum? - Because that's ultimately what Catachans are suppose to be. Their portrayed strength is more than average, being fictional, their fictional characters' strength is arguably on the edge human possibility, but just inside superhuman. For GW that's enough to justify it. There are however living individuals stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger was at his peak, who could also be regarded similarly as Strength 4 humans.
Your hang up though is ultimately a question of what does strength 4 mean when a space marine and a Schwarzenegger analogue are both strength 4? And then what does it mean to be a space marine, if they are "only strength 4"?
To put it in a different context... you have two military jets... both capable of Mach 1.2, this is like our strength value, a threshold line in the sand. One of those jets has to fly with afterburners to achieve that speed, the other can do it just cruising and without afterburners. The aircraft with afterburners will typically have to slow down and turn off their afterburners after an amount of time or risk permanent damage. This is our Catachan. The aircraft flying in cruise can do it until it runs out of fuel or gets shot down. This is our marine... although to continue the analogy this jet not only super cruises its an armored tank with a nearly infinite fuel supply and that is ultimately as much of what makes a space marine super human.
The average soldier performs all the different weight lifting in the ball park of 125lbs to 150lbs; that is what strength 3 represents. Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak was performing all the different lifts in a weight range of 525lbs to 750lbs. He could be kitted as a fully equipped soldier and additionally carry an average sized soldier equally equipped without necessarily hitting his peak strength. This is easily in the realm of picking up an unladen person and throwing them or knocking them so hard they're catching some air. His workouts were typically 5 hours a day, which speaks to his level of endurance to perform in this generally high domain. The man generally regarded as the strongest man in the world, Björnsson, the man who played "the Mountain" in the Game of Thrones tv show... he is our closest human analogue to a Space Marine, where he's 440lbs 6ft-9in and he performs many of his lifts and challenges at 900lbs+, but deadlifts 1000lbs+ and performs a log carry at 1400lbs+. I will use him as a baseline to ultimately compare how far removed in "strength" a space marine might be.
Space Marines, like normal people vary in size and capabilities, and through fiction have run the gambit... so any comparison has to keep that in mind, and assume much of the most over the top descriptions of marines are extreme outliers. GW's most often stated stats on a space marine is that unarmored they are minimally 7ft tall and weigh in at 700lbs. The weight difference to Bjornsson is 260lbs, but that includes the generally larger scale, their black carapace and other implants, 20 extra organs, their increased bone density, and only after the extra muscle they have over Bjornsson.
Bones for a typical human compose 15% of our overall weight, for a 700lbs normal human that would be 107lbs. Space marines however have increased bone density as part of their toughness... human bone density is typically around 1.24 g/cm^3, while the largest land mammal, the elephant, is 1.7g/cm^3... this is about 30% greater and I think serves as a good approximation for a marine. This makes a space marine's bones roughly 146lbs of their weight... meaning of the 260lbs difference 78lbs of that is additional bone mass.
In a similar way we can account for the added mass of a space marines organs and skin from just being larger... you get an additional 26lbs for the additional skin and 36lbs for the larger, otherwise natural, organs. At this point you have to attempt to account for the implanted space marine organs. Going by their descriptions we can infer the mass of these different organs relative to particular analogous standard human organs; without giving you a spread sheet it ends up coming to about an additional 56lbs. From this we can assume the remaining mass difference of a space marine is pure added muscle, but its really only 64lbs.
When we take the mass of Bjornsson's constituent parts we're left with 200lbs +/-20lb of him is muscle. And if we add up the constituent parts of a space marine he ends up at 264lbs +/- 20lbs of muscle. A space marine has 30% more muscle mass than the strongest man in the world.
We know a space marine receives lots of hormones, but we don't know if their muscles aren't just bigger but different. But just going by this muscle mass a space marine can dead lift and squat a full sized sedan, completely off the ground by himself. Bjornsson can only turn that sedan over on its side. Schwarzenegger can only lift the front end while the rear wheels stay on the ground.
Of a space marine's 700lbs, beyond a normal human a good amount of what makes a marine is going into that toughness 4, but just as much does make it into that Strength 4. But I think the aspect of strength and what makes a marine a marine, isn't as much their peak strength as it is their high endurance. The average Strength 3 guardsmen, can't lift a car but compared to a body builder that soldier can perform at their modest peak level for longer. While a Schwarzenegger or Catachans might be Strength 4 realistically this represents a surge strength, an occasional and concerted effort of peak performance that can't be sustained for as long as a space marine can. So while a marines relative mass and size might make you think they should just be stronger, a lot of the gain is really their endurance and toughness. A lot of it is also peak potential and longevity; at 200 years old a space marine could likely have trained themselves even further beyond that baseline performance, even further beyond human.
So if it helps you think about it, Strength 4 is a bench mark and not a proportional measure of all aspects of strength. If we lined up everything that was Strength 4 in order of strength this Catachan is at one end of the spectrum while space marines are at the other. Strength 4 is "can what this model represent lift a car?" Where strength 5 is a higher threshold that even primaris, despite being stronger than a typical marine can't quite reach... maybe that threshold is to punch a car some distance, I don't know. Its abstract to a degree so you have to give it elbow room.
Damn, dude.
#theydidthemath
2019/03/04 01:41:12
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
After looking over the leaked stuff for the next box-set I'm suddenly inclined to say "No, don't stop buying old marines until GW figures out what the heck it's going for with Primaris marines. Those are some schizophrenic unit designs."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 02:28:13
After looking over the leaked stuff for the next box-set I'm suddenly inclined to say "No, don't stop buying old marines until GW figures out what the heck it's going for with Primaris marines. Those are some schizophrenic unit designs."
what' schitzo about it?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/03/05 02:49:59
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
After looking over the leaked stuff for the next box-set I'm suddenly inclined to say "No, don't stop buying old marines until GW figures out what the heck it's going for with Primaris marines. Those are some schizophrenic unit designs."
what' schitzo about it?
I mean, deep strikers with heavy weapons, a second wave of primaris releases and they still don't have a dedicated anti-tank unit but they have FOUR count em FOUR units if you want infantry armed with nothing but S4 bolt weapons.
I will grant eliminators seem pretty solid tbh. I like the flexibility there. don't know the point costs, but assuming you can get 4 for 80 points, they do solidly more damage than a vindicare against most targets with executioner rounds, and the option to ignore cover and - to hit instead is a nice little bit of flexibility.
infiltrators are just scouts but bad. libby will entirely depend on the obscuration discipline, but, I suspect, it will be the new meta for space marine HQs simply because he is simply equipped and most probably has some kind of -1 to hit power (literally annot be worse than librarius discipline and SMs really need a viable 3rd cheap HQ. he's not mobile but he deep strikes which is nice.)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/03/05 10:12:58
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
After looking over the leaked stuff for the next box-set I'm suddenly inclined to say "No, don't stop buying old marines until GW figures out what the heck it's going for with Primaris marines. Those are some schizophrenic unit designs."
what' schitzo about it?
They kind of a look like tactical . At least to me, and some people at my store. the old primaris were chunky enough, with those huge ugly bolters, but you could not mistake them for a tactical. The new not-scouts, look very much like scouts. And the not-tacticals, look very much like tacticals.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/03/05 13:19:40
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
So, my question: Primaris are like 8-9 feet tall? And Primaris Scouts? Who can't spot Gregor Kilgane in power armor hiding in the bushes? This is dumb.
2019/03/05 13:55:20
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
After looking over the leaked stuff for the next box-set I'm suddenly inclined to say "No, don't stop buying old marines until GW figures out what the heck it's going for with Primaris marines. Those are some schizophrenic unit designs."
what' schitzo about it?
Lets take a long-range and relatively cheap heavy weapon that doesn't want to move and put it on the over-priced and high-speed Inceptor platform. Lets also take the only really on-meta anti-skimmer tank heavy weapon Primaris have recieved and give it specifically anti-infantry rules.
Three characters in Phoebos armor; two have Advanced Deploy, one Deep Strikes.
Four releases with AD so you can put most of your army in range for a turn-one charge. One marginally decent melee weapon between them. And you can deny enemy overwatch fire for that turn-one charge if you don't use the DS you're paying for on one of the other two releases.
It's kind of a mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 14:01:25
Nope they are. Standard human is between 5-6 feet, standard astartes is between 7-8. Standard primaris are 8-9. Same height as Custodes and Ogryn.
No. Normal marines are about seven feet, Primaris and Custodes are about seven and half, eight at most. Ogryns are bigger than that. Look at the art, the Primaris are depicted only a tiny bit taller than normal marines, it is barely noticeable. Just like in the model form they're only tiny bit taller than the new upscaled chaos marines (that's the new 'normal marine' scale.)
Nope they are. Standard human is between 5-6 feet, standard astartes is between 7-8. Standard primaris are 8-9. Same height as Custodes and Ogryn.
No. Normal marines are about seven feet, Primaris and Custodes are about seven and half, eight at most. Ogryns are bigger than that. Look at the art, the Primaris are depicted only a tiny bit taller than normal marines, it is barely noticeable. Just like in the model form they're only tiny bit taller than the new upscaled chaos marines (that's the new 'normal marine' scale.)
Or go by the literature. The new primaris marines stand at least a foot over standard marines, there is one who is able to look Bobby in the eye (Bobby doesn't have armor on) which makes him close to 9' tall. Primaris are basically primarch level physicality.
2019/03/05 16:15:50
Subject: Should we all just avoid buying Space Marines?
Zustiur wrote: I think the real answer to the question posed in the thread title is, 'do you want support for old marines to continue?' If you do, keep buying them, show GW that the market still wants them. I expect a lull in new boxes of them until GW has time to gauge the long term sales response to the introduction of primaris.
As someone who plans to start up a Black Templar army who owns 0 space marines, I have absolutely no interest in primaris. While I do appreciate their increased size as they are now as tall as space marines should be, the new primaris models are too busy. Their lore is what really gets me though. Its bad. Really, really, really bad. Dark Angels & Space wolves welcoming primaris with open arms no questions asked? Right. Cawl creating superior warriors than the emperor himself who is nothing short of a god? Right.
In the event the old marines go the way of the dodo, I'll just find alternative means to buy them.
ty!
