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 Lance845 wrote:
This is a dumb straw man argument.

The "social contract" of people meeting in public is non existent. Shocking maybe? But people can go out into public unwashed. They are free to. They will suffer the consequences of their lack of cleanliness when people tell them they smell bad. But regardless of all that, a game is not the same as being clean. Not being clean has societal repercussions like diseases. I don't think your going to catch anything from some grey plastic. Your argument does not compute. What is needed to play the game is 100% in the rule book. And if people decided it would be cool to get together a do nude 40k (Like skinny dipping but games!) they are free to get together and do some nude 40k and they would still be playing the exact same game that you do.

The state of their cleanliness is not a factor. And the state of their models paintedness isn't either.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the reasons for mandatory bathing are, or that they are very good reasons, the only thing that matters is that "you must bathe regularly" is not a rule found in the 40k rulebook and yet it is a near-universal truth that a person who does not bathe regularly will be removed from whatever space is hosting a 40k game. It is indisputable fact that the rules for playing a game of 40k go beyond what is written in the rulebook, so "painting isn't in the rulebook" is a meaningless argument. I don't care if it is or isn't in the rulebook, I want any store/club/whatever that I associate with to have a policy that unpainted models are not permitted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
No, it's not. "It's not in the rulebook" is the only statement of ANY value when playing a game. We are not talking about a painting competition.

Can you cite the rules in the 40k rulebook prohibiting the use of loaded dice? Would you consider it reasonable for a player to use loaded dice in a game and defend their behavior with "the rules don't say I have to use fair dice"?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This is a dumb straw man argument.

The "social contract" of people meeting in public is non existent. Shocking maybe? But people can go out into public unwashed. They are free to. They will suffer the consequences of their lack of cleanliness when people tell them they smell bad. But regardless of all that, a game is not the same as being clean. Not being clean has societal repercussions like diseases. I don't think your going to catch anything from some grey plastic. Your argument does not compute. What is needed to play the game is 100% in the rule book. And if people decided it would be cool to get together a do nude 40k (Like skinny dipping but games!) they are free to get together and do some nude 40k and they would still be playing the exact same game that you do.

The state of their cleanliness is not a factor. And the state of their models paintedness isn't either.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the reasons for mandatory bathing are, or that they are very good reasons, the only thing that matters is that "you must bathe regularly" is not a rule found in the 40k rulebook and yet it is a near-universal truth that a person who does not bathe regularly will be removed from whatever space is hosting a 40k game. It is indisputable fact that the rules for playing a game of 40k go beyond what is written in the rulebook, so "painting isn't in the rulebook" is a meaningless argument. I don't care if it is or isn't in the rulebook, I want any store/club/whatever that I associate with to have a policy that unpainted models are not permitted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
No, it's not. "It's not in the rulebook" is the only statement of ANY value when playing a game. We are not talking about a painting competition.

Can you cite the rules in the 40k rulebook prohibiting the use of loaded dice? Would you consider it reasonable for a player to use loaded dice in a game and defend their behavior with "the rules don't say I have to use fair dice"?

It is not indisputable. I am disputing it. Prove me wrong. YOU can choose to create additional barriers to entry all you want. People have been posting "No girls allowed" signs on their tree houses for thousands of years. YOU creating that criteria is simply that. YOU doing so. It has no impact on the activity itself except to shrink the pool of people you have to play with and potentially turn away new comers when they see your elitism. The first of those I could not care less about. The second is a travesty we all suffer the consequences of.

It's also explicitly stated that you do NOT need to paint models.

It's not a grey area, according to the rulebook.

Bathing is nothing that is related to 40K specifically and therefore has no place in the 40K rulebook. Your example of loaded dice is a bit better, but it's also a rule that goes beyond 40K (and if you go by GW you'd only use the dice they provide as these are the only dice mentioned in the rulebook - and these are not loaded )

Anything wargaming related, like painting, has a place, and GW has adressed that with the Paragraph insaniak posted. But because you don't like what they put in the rulebook you dismissed it.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bathing is nothing that is related to 40K specifically and therefore has no place in the 40K rulebook. Your example of loaded dice is a bit better, but it's also a rule that goes beyond 40K (and if you go by GW you'd only use the dice they provide as these are the only dice mentioned in the rulebook - and these are not loaded )

Anything wargaming related, like painting, has a place, and GW has adressed that with the Paragraph insaniak posted. But because you don't like what they put in the rulebook you dismissed it.

No its because GW doesn't Define tradition of war-gaming, and its like peregrine said, why do you think GW would say that?, there not speaking from a gamers point of view obviously.

 Stormatious wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bathing is nothing that is related to 40K specifically and therefore has no place in the 40K rulebook. Your example of loaded dice is a bit better, but it's also a rule that goes beyond 40K (and if you go by GW you'd only use the dice they provide as these are the only dice mentioned in the rulebook - and these are not loaded )

Anything wargaming related, like painting, has a place, and GW has adressed that with the Paragraph insaniak posted. But because you don't like what they put in the rulebook you dismissed it.

No its because GW doesn't Define tradition of war-gaming, and its like peregrine said, why do you think GW would say that?, there not speaking from a gamers point of view obviously.

Again, tradition isn't just meaningless it's toxic. Do you have something better than tradition?

Can't we all just agree that if someone wants to only play someone with painted models, that is their prerogative like stores requiring it for official tournaments if they choose to. But you can't tell people they can't play a casual game in a public area because they are using unpainted models.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bathing is nothing that is related to 40K specifically and therefore has no place in the 40K rulebook. Your example of loaded dice is a bit better, but it's also a rule that goes beyond 40K (and if you go by GW you'd only use the dice they provide as these are the only dice mentioned in the rulebook - and these are not loaded )

Anything wargaming related, like painting, has a place, and GW has adressed that with the Paragraph insaniak posted. But because you don't like what they put in the rulebook you dismissed it.

No its because GW doesn't Define tradition of war-gaming, and its like peregrine said, why do you think GW would say that?, there not speaking from a gamers point of view obviously.

Again, tradition isn't just meaningless it's toxic. Do you have something better than tradition?

Oh ok, so having only painted minis allowed to participate in battles is toxic and meaningless according to you?

 Stormatious wrote:

Oh ok, so having only painted minis allowed to participate in battles is toxic and meaningless according to you?

I suspect the point was more that being traditional doesn't inherently make something good, or worthwhile.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Bathing is nothing that is related to 40K specifically and therefore has no place in the 40K rulebook. Your example of loaded dice is a bit better, but it's also a rule that goes beyond 40K (and if you go by GW you'd only use the dice they provide as these are the only dice mentioned in the rulebook - and these are not loaded )

Anything wargaming related, like painting, has a place, and GW has adressed that with the Paragraph insaniak posted. But because you don't like what they put in the rulebook you dismissed it.

No its because GW doesn't Define tradition of war-gaming, and its like peregrine said, why do you think GW would say that?, there not speaking from a gamers point of view obviously.

Again, tradition isn't just meaningless it's toxic. Do you have something better than tradition?

Oh ok having only painted minis allowed to participate in battles is toxic and meaningless according to you?

Well, yes. But that is not what I said. You harp on about "tradition" as your baseline argument. Again, look back at humanities long history of the things they have done with, to, and about people because of "tradition". Tradition is a argument for nothing. Doing something only "because thats the way we used to do it" is a dumb way to do anything. You stagnate. You alienate. It has no good reasoning behind it and it has toxic effects on the community.

I know people who don't play 40k because they have seen people get chewed out for having unpainted models and decided the entire community could feth off. "Why would I want to get involved in a game with a community like that?"

Key word in that sentence is game.

But instead of it just being a bad apple up there you want to instill policy and make it a matter of enforcable standard that everyone should be happy to be a part of. Basically, in the name of tradition you want to turn a game into a systemic system of shaming those who don't want to do the optional thing you enjoy. That is basically text book toxicity.

 Stormatious wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Oh ok, so having only painted minis allowed to participate in battles is toxic and meaningless according to you?

I suspect the point was more that being traditional doesn't inherently make something good, or worthwhile.

Never mind sorry, i withdraw from this subject. I have stated my opinion.

Sorry that last comment was a bad comparison. Ill just stop talking on this subject, but i respect every ones opinion. I didn't read what you said properly. My bad. ( insaniak )

 Stormatious wrote:
Sorry that last comment was a bad comparison. Ill just stop talking on this subject, but i respect every ones opinion. I didn't read what you said properly. My bad. ( insiniak )

No worries, you just got caught up in the heat of the moment.

Yeah man. I took no offence to anything you have said thus far. I 100% disagree with your stance and your reasoning. But I am not offended by it. There are entire countries whos values I disagree with. Getting offended by each individual would be exhausting.

If I could somehow make the biggest 40k event possible, where one word from a participant about not liking the lack of painting on a model was uttered, they were booted I would. That’s my stance. I playtest models at my locals time and time again before deciding whether they fit my army or not. I only paint what I end up for sure using. Tell me other wise and you’re wrong.. because it’s my opinion and how I play, not yours.

While I rarely have a fully painted army (due to always trying out new games), I do not allow myself to go out to play games unless there has been progress on my armies. Be it basing, painting, or assembling stuff I want to use.

I have that as my motivation to get paint on my army (posting this while letting paint dry), but do not hold others to that, and will not tell them how to enjoy their hobby.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
It's a game, you're supposed to have fun with people. That's the only tradition there is.

And seeing unpainted models on the table is not fun.

Having fun is in the game, or modeling, or painting. Whatever you enjoy, you should do. But when you try imposing your standard on others, it stops being fun for them.

What about some thing else like i don't know, any thing.... If you don't have the main requirements usually people wont allow you to participate in alot of "insert what ever hobby"

Hobby being any thing - Cars / engines /sports / what ever.

But you don't need paint to play the game.

You don't need miniatures either in order to play the game. You can use counters or the bases with a symbol scrawled on them. Of course, that would make for a gak game.

Panzerkanzler wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
It's a game, you're supposed to have fun with people. That's the only tradition there is.

And seeing unpainted models on the table is not fun.

Having fun is in the game, or modeling, or painting. Whatever you enjoy, you should do. But when you try imposing your standard on others, it stops being fun for them.

What about some thing else like i don't know, any thing.... If you don't have the main requirements usually people wont allow you to participate in alot of "insert what ever hobby"

Hobby being any thing - Cars / engines /sports / what ever.

But you don't need paint to play the game.

You don't need miniatures either in order to play the game. You can use counters or the bases with a symbol scrawled on them. Of course, that would make for a gak game.

If you’re cool with it then they’ll use that

It's also just wrong. You measure from any part of the model to any part of the model. The rules specifically require a model to play.

Just another strawman argument that is not making any actual point.

Well, actually you need miniatures to draw a proper line of sight. These miniatures aren't fully defined, though, I just need to compare my Plague Marines from 3rd edition with those from 8th edition. Or an old and a new GUO. Both are valid models, though. And both are valid, even if they're not painted.

 Peregrine wrote:

(And before one particular poster shows up, yes, reasonable accommodations can be made for someone who has a legitimate disability that prevents them from painting. But the vast majority of unpainted armies are the result of laziness, not disability. Their owners don't care about painting and refuse to do it even though they are entirely capable of it. The disability argument is nothing more than an attempt to divert the discussion onto an irrelevant tangent and provide excuses for the not-disabled majority.)

Oh, you mean me!

Honestly, I'm tired of you ingoring me and my fellow disabled gamers.

In a casual, not tournament setting, unpainted models are fine, it might take a few games before deciding on wargear/equipment.

Some people don't put painting at the top of the list. For me, it's:
Modelling
Playing
Lore
Painting
Obviously decending priority.
There's nothing wrong with that.

In a tournament situation, or a narrative game where pics and models are more to the forefront, I agree that painting is more important, in a perfect world I would love to have my full army painted, but if there's a unit that's taking a while, I won't play it. Personally, I'll feild either grey or fully painted (in comparison to the rest of the army), I won't have a half done unit unless I gave no other option.

Painting a single squad can take weeks if not months. That's a reality for some of us, and that should be fine.

Painting models has gameplay benefits. Take, for example, a Brigade's mandatory six Infantry Squads of Catachans. Assuming identical upgrades (or lack thereof, in today's tournament environment), once the units have been deployed to the table it becomes pretty much impossible to determine which unit a given model belongs to unless the models are painted. See also mobs of Ork Choppa Boyz, swarms of Termagants, etc - painting is the best method to distinguish between otherwise identical models.

Even between different units of similar-looking models, the application of paint can help with unit recognition at a distance.

Also, painting is the one area of the wargaming hobby where the rules can't spoil your enjoyment - regardless of whether your codex is poor or OP, you should get the same enjoyment out of painting the figures. Heck, even if the game or faction is cancelled, you can still enjoy painting them.

 Peregrine wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Events are fine, I am talking casual play where nothing has to be perfect.

But why should "casual" play be any different? In fact, shouldn't a "casual" game have higher standards for painting, since there's no longer the "I must buy this new army to keep up with the metagame and don't have time to paint it before the next tournament" pressure of competitive play? A "casual" player should be 100% fine with using only painted models even if it means they can't build a perfectly optimized list. Or they can play a 500 point game instead of the 2000 point tournament standard, etc. So why, when fielding a fully painted army is easier, do the expectations for doing so go down?

Ahh yes, a variant of the Dakka answer to everything: "Wait"

Anyways....

As I've said in other threads, this casual player pretty much only paints when depressed or really stressed out. I'm a gamer 1st, then a modeler, & somewhere far far after that, when things are going really wrong, a painter. If I'm painting more than a single random one-off (like say a D&D mini or an occasional monster), then there's a problem.
For ex;
Way back in my college days I got stuff painted, most often around exam times. There was a bit of stress involved.
The other year when my father died? I got a hell of a lot of stuff painted.
A while back things at work were bad & far beyond my ability to even affect, let alone fix. All there was was stress & more stress. Did I mention there was stress? I got some painting done.

My friends & the people I actually play these games with (I.E. those who matter) accept this. Since you're not one of those people, you can off.

 Dysartes wrote:
Painting models has gameplay benefits. Take, for example, a Brigade's mandatory six Infantry Squads of Catachans. Assuming identical upgrades (or lack thereof, in today's tournament environment), once the units have been deployed to the table it becomes pretty much impossible to determine which unit a given model belongs to unless the models are painted. See also mobs of Ork Choppa Boyz, swarms of Termagants, etc - painting is the best method to distinguish between otherwise identical models.

Even between different units of similar-looking models, the application of paint can help with unit recognition at a distance.

"Painting" CAN help make those units stand out IF they are painted with differences. My Termagants and Hormagaunts have no special markings by unit. They are exactly as indistinguishable painted as they were in grey plastic.

Also, painting is the one area of the wargaming hobby where the rules can't spoil your enjoyment - regardless of whether your codex is poor or OP, you should get the same enjoyment out of painting the figures. Heck, even if the game or faction is cancelled, you can still enjoy painting them.

2 points.

1) Modeling requires no rules. People kit bash, scratch build, do all kinds of stuff with models just for the fun of it. Paint doesn't stand alone in any capacity.

2) YOU enjoy painting. For others it's a miserable experience.

Unpainted models are not good for the hobby, they are uninspiring and if the games are uninspiring the hobby will die out over time because not enough people are inspired to take it up.

Both my local GW and independent store put a fair amount of time and effort into having good looking models and scenery so that when they put on games it is visually enticing. It is the absolute fundamentals of business to try to present your product well. It is good for the rest of us because if new people do not enter the hobby then when you are all old codgers like me there will be no people to play with.

Then on the other hand little timmy/tammy wants to get his/her models on the table as soon as possible - which is also understandable and of course the store owners are cool with this. All the while the same store owner is being really encouraging with the painting side of things, helping out with tips and techniques to get those models looking good as soon as possible. They have to maintain a balance between encouraging what is good for the hobby and avoiding gatekeeping for youngsters new into the hobby.

Grizzled veterans turning up with grey plastic because they can't be bothered painting their new tournament army until they know it will smash face (and even then only because the tournament makes them do it) are a different thing. They may be a bit of a cash cow for the store owner if they turn over new armies on a regular basis but they are rarely any sort of good advert for the hobby when it comes to enticing in new players. Again the store owner needs to balance this, if the store becomes dominated by this sort of player it can be profitable in the short term but is probably doomed in the longer term due to the lack of fresh players coming through. If that same tournament player gets most of their stuff on eBay or cheap online retail then they are pretty much just a drag on the store and a liability to its sustainability should they come to dominate the local scene.

Painting is very much secondary to me. Playing and having fun is more important. I like to play with and against painted armies, but also with abs against new toys. It's also rather play against an army that steadily model by model gets better looking week on week, even if its mostly bad plastic to start is more pleasant than a hurried mess applied. I've rarely played against anyone who refused to play unpainted minis. I've been glad they refused when it's come up as they've turned out to be people I wouldn't want to play.

Pretty middle ground on this, painting isn't a priority but it is important is what I voted for. I absolutely believe though for every person in the hobby this is different and there isn't a right or wrong answer. Enjoy the hobby the way you want to enjoy it.

That said for me personally I don't need people to be Michelangelo, but at least get a base coat before you throw them on the table IMO. Plastic is just lazy to me, I don't care if you paint like Bob Ross or like a 5 year old finger painting, seeing a little color on the table makes it pop visually which, to me, is enjoyable.

Will also say if you are going to an event make sure to reach the minimums in a reasonable way. Was at LVO recently and had to play against a ynnari at 2-2 (how you go 2-2 with ynnari I got no clue) but the guy had literally painted half the model brown and the other half tan. Honestly that was a little insulting to the event IMO, and a bit disrespectful to the people there.

However I haven't nor would I ever tell some 1 I won't play them because of paint or lack there of, its not for me to police some one else's enjoyment of the hobby.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
Unpainted models are not good for the hobby, they are uninspiring and if the games are uninspiring the hobby will die out over time because not enough people are inspired to take it up.

Both my local GW and independent store put a fair amount of time and effort into having good looking models and scenery so that when they put on games it is visually enticing. It is the absolute fundamentals of business to try to present your product well. It is good for the rest of us because if new people do not enter the hobby then when you are all old codgers like me there will be no people to play with.

Then on the other hand little timmy/tammy wants to get his/her models on the table as soon as possible - which is also understandable and of course the store owners are cool with this. All the while the same store owner is being really encouraging with the painting side of things, helping out with tips and techniques to get those models looking good as soon as possible. They have to maintain a balance between encouraging what is good for the hobby and avoiding gatekeeping for youngsters new into the hobby.

Grizzled veterans turning up with grey plastic because they can't be bothered painting their new tournament army until they know it will smash face (and even then only because the tournament makes them do it) are a different thing. They may be a bit of a cash cow for the store owner if they turn over new armies on a regular basis but they are rarely any sort of good advert for the hobby when it comes to enticing in new players. Again the store owner needs to balance this, if the store becomes dominated by this sort of player it can be profitable in the short term but is probably doomed in the longer term due to the lack of fresh players coming through. If that same tournament player gets most of their stuff on eBay or cheap online retail then they are pretty much just a drag on the store and a liability to its sustainability should they come to dominate the local scene.

I would argue that the most enticing thing is not painted models but people having fun playing the game. Monopoly has sold a insane number of companies over the years without me ever seeing a painted house/hotel. If people enjoy the game they play it. If people see people enjoying the game they want in on the fun. The painted models can look cool and be a boost too. But grey plastic is not a reversal on that. It's never a detriment to have 2 people with unpainted models having a great time.

In fact, 2 people with beautifully painted models looming over their table stern and determined and taking the game deathly seriously is more of a detriment to new players being enticed then 2 people with grey plastic laughing and smiling and having singular great time playing.

The tourny player you described is often in those stern and determined camp. They are not there for fun. They are there to win. And that... determination often comes with an attitude that effects the way the game looks in a way that is not enticing to new players.

Oh god, this type of thread again.

Here is the lowdown: These threads will bring out the worst in people as there are a lot of vocal gatekeepers in the hobby. Gatekeepers who in most likelihood played with grey minis back back in the day but have for some reason decided to be the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of all things Warhammer.

Personally I enjoy playing with and against painted miniatures but in no way will I let this arbitrary metric stop me from enjoying the game with other people. Only place I feel like being painted is a requirement is at a large tournament level where the game becomes a spectator hobby.

 Lance845 wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:
Unpainted models are not good for the hobby, they are uninspiring and if the games are uninspiring the hobby will die out over time because not enough people are inspired to take it up.

Both my local GW and independent store put a fair amount of time and effort into having good looking models and scenery so that when they put on games it is visually enticing. It is the absolute fundamentals of business to try to present your product well. It is good for the rest of us because if new people do not enter the hobby then when you are all old codgers like me there will be no people to play with.

Then on the other hand little timmy/tammy wants to get his/her models on the table as soon as possible - which is also understandable and of course the store owners are cool with this. All the while the same store owner is being really encouraging with the painting side of things, helping out with tips and techniques to get those models looking good as soon as possible. They have to maintain a balance between encouraging what is good for the hobby and avoiding gatekeeping for youngsters new into the hobby.

Grizzled veterans turning up with grey plastic because they can't be bothered painting their new tournament army until they know it will smash face (and even then only because the tournament makes them do it) are a different thing. They may be a bit of a cash cow for the store owner if they turn over new armies on a regular basis but they are rarely any sort of good advert for the hobby when it comes to enticing in new players. Again the store owner needs to balance this, if the store becomes dominated by this sort of player it can be profitable in the short term but is probably doomed in the longer term due to the lack of fresh players coming through. If that same tournament player gets most of their stuff on eBay or cheap online retail then they are pretty much just a drag on the store and a liability to its sustainability should they come to dominate the local scene.

I would argue that the most enticing thing is not painted models but people having fun playing the game. Monopoly has sold a insane number of companies over the years without me ever seeing a painted house/hotel. If people enjoy the game they play it. If people see people enjoying the game they want in on the fun. The painted models can look cool and be a boost too. But grey plastic is not a reversal on that. It's never a detriment to have 2 people with unpainted models having a great time.

In fact, 2 people with beautifully painted models looming over their table stern and determined and taking the game deathly seriously is more of a detriment to new players being enticed then 2 people with grey plastic laughing and smiling and having singular great time playing.

The tourny player you described is often in those stern and determined camp. They are not there for fun. They are there to win. And that... determination often comes with an attitude that effects the way the game looks in a way that is not enticing to new players.

I hope im allowed to enter back in to this conversation temporarily after saying i will withdraw, but i still think i have some worthwhile things to add to this topic after reading some new posts.


You can't compare apples and oranges ( referring to you comparing wargaming to the famous "board game" monopoly.) .



Look, its not just "painting", it is also what determines what legion or side your army is on, it also helps with knowing what weapons / gear your opponent is equipping with out having to get a telescope out or put your face right up to the grey miniature, and it also most importantly looks great and encourages and re enforces the concept of what this is about, so that way we don't get a influx of grey noobs.