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Has no one watched "12 Strong" or read the book its based on?
Special Forces on horseback

Lets also not forget that there is still an Eldar subfaction that rides dinosaurs into war. Although GW hasn't really paid any attention to them in decades (outside of possible mentions in stories from BL); but they are there, riding monsters into battle.


Anyone who has gone off-road will attest that there is certain terrain that vehicles struggle with and the Imperium is so heavily stuck within its limited mindset that they won't advance designs to meet challenging conditions all the time.
Plus extreme climatic factors can affect machines just as they do living animals. Sometimes a living animal is superior because its adapted to a specific environment that might put increased wear and tear or cause faults in machinery mass produced for general use.

Also Space Wolves ride to battle on wolves now - oversized (sometimes augmented) wolves

Idea of IG 'bikes'/'horses' appeals, but done differently to others, the bikes being a mobility thing, not a gun platform or close assault platform as such.

easy to use bikes, horses, beasts or whatever to represent them, fits perfectly with the 'patrol' idea without them becoming actual assault units, better would be the idea of 'dragoons' who can act a bit like Kradshurtzen (spelling?) units, move up, dismount and then fight as infantry with heavier weapons they cannot fire while mounted

I've actually been toying with starting a Guard force to go with my Knights, and I want to make some Rough Riders using the new GSC Atalan Jackal bikers. Problem is, what do I do with the quad bikes? Maybe make them squad leaders or something? I'd also have to come up with some lances from somewhere. Of course, if they decide to nix the indexes from matched play...

those bikes are ideal, something to get individuals moving about.

quad bikes? heavy weapons team transports? crew of three, drops off and then scarpers leaving the weapon and two crew?

leopard wrote:Idea of IG 'bikes'/'horses' appeals, but done differently to others, the bikes being a mobility thing, not a gun platform or close assault platform as such.

easy to use bikes, horses, beasts or whatever to represent them, fits perfectly with the 'patrol' idea without them becoming actual assault units, better would be the idea of 'dragoons' who can act a bit like Kradshurtzen (spelling?) units, move up, dismount and then fight as infantry with heavier weapons they cannot fire while mounted

I do like the idea of Rough Riders as a sort of dragoon type unit, though completely dismounting them sounds like buying extra models. Probably simpler would be to give them a rule that gives a bonus to shooting if they stay still for a turn.

ZergSmasher wrote:I've actually been toying with starting a Guard force to go with my Knights, and I want to make some Rough Riders using the new GSC Atalan Jackal bikers. Problem is, what do I do with the quad bikes? Maybe make them squad leaders or something? I'd also have to come up with some lances from somewhere. Of course, if they decide to nix the indexes from matched play...

You could have the quad be the one carrying extra supplies and parts. Or if they are the footmen of a Knightly house, you could say that the Sacristans of the household stowed extra parts, munitions, etc for the Knight itself on it for some on the field repairs.

Lances are fairly common in several Sigmar kits. Though then again, at that point you might as well be buying them for the mounts too...

Why do you feel "everyone" loves Rough Riders? A lot more people have absolute disdain for them or just don't care for them than "love" them.

My old college roommate, who got me into 40k, lured me in with his rough rider models.

He was putting together a Catachan army at the time (early 2001). The models he used were kitbashed parts from the Catachan line, custom sculpted stuff, and instead of a horse he used some Raptor-like mounts from the VOID line. All the riders had vest, no sleeves, and camo cowboy hats.

This is what got me into the hobby, so Roughriders have a special place in my heart.

We talked about the quad bikes in another thread - I personally suggest using them as Sentinels. You'd need the okay from your opponent (different size/height). I'd absolutely let you rock them as Sentinels because narratively it'd be a very cool thematic force.

When I think about the IG range, you’ve got...

Russ Chassis
Chimera Chassis
Sentinel Chassis
Valkyrie Chassis
“Infantry” Chassis
“Scion” Chassis
“Ogryn” Chassis
(In the codex)

So having the Rough Riders cut is 1/8 of the Chassis available.

Compared to loyalist Marines, just off the top of my head...

Tactical Chassis
Scout Chassis
Primaris Chassis
Tactical Bike
Scout Bike
Tactical Jump Pack
Primaris Jump Pack
Terminator (and variations thereof)
Centurions
Land Speeders
Rhino Chassis
Land Raider Chassis
Various Dreadnought Chassis
Storm Raven
2 other Flyer Chassis

So there’s 16 Chassis (even more) to pick from, that gives different visuals on the board. More variety. I acknowledge that I picked the golden goose for variety, but they could cut half the line and still have more Chassis to choose from.

Necrons have...

Warriors / Flayed ones
Immortals
Scarabs
Jet Bikes
Lychguard
Destroyers
Wraiths
Spiders
The walker spider thing
The centipede
Anihilation Barge
Croissants
Monolith
Ghost Barge

Thats’s 14 Chassis off the top of my head, and they didn’t have a real codex till 4th edition, if I recall. Again, they could cut half the Chassis and have as many options as Guard.

Guard is an army where variety of models is in short supply. Losing RR’s is a shame, just from the modeling potential being cut.

 greatbigtree wrote:
When I think about the IG range, you’ve got...

Russ Chassis
Chimera Chassis
Sentinel Chassis
Valkyrie Chassis
“Infantry” Chassis
“Scion” Chassis
“Ogryn” Chassis
(In the codex)

So having the Rough Riders cut is 1/8 of the Chassis available.

Don't forget the SHT "Chassis", given that's in the 'dex too.

I want new models for rough riders, but not the horses kind.

Personally, I think rough riders riding horses is a bit silly. Yeah, the IG is supposed to invoke images of anachronistic fighting styles, but using horses in war and cavalry charges died out in WW1 for a reason.

I want to see motorcycle rough riders, or say snowmobile rough riders for a winter regiment. Practical, useful, mobile, and fits the sci-fi theme. Guard are really lacking in the fast-attack slot and some vehicle mounted infantry are just the thing to flesh it out.

I would agree with comments that they are just something silly in an already silly setting that lets you be silly and create some fun models.

It's why I made these...



They don't need to be "good" in the game, because they are sleeveless angry men on alien dinosaurs

For the same reason I want to see Snakebite Cyboar riders make a return. Even if they had just been an index footnote, I could have converted them. Still could, I suppose, & have them stand in for warbikes.

*EDIT*

Those rough-riders are brilliant DeadEyeDuk.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

Yup, because horses are strictly low-tech and have no place on modern battlefied:



Oh wait. Oh well, it's not like they played big enough role in recent wars to get monument or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Response_Monument

Oh wait, again Methinks it's not the cavalry fans that are stuck in single-minded, wrong mentality here...

 Irbis wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

Yup, because horses are strictly low-tech and have no place on modern battlefied:



Oh wait. Oh well, it's not like they played big enough role in recent wars to get monument or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Response_Monument

Oh wait, again Methinks it's not the cavalry fans that are stuck in single-minded, wrong mentality here...

Whilst dragoons are still useful, admittedly charging the enemy to engage them with a lance in melee is somewhat obsolete But it looks bloody awesome, so I'd rather keep them in the AM roster.

The lances can easily be changed to grenade lances and such - plus lets not forget Custodes and Eldar also go into battle with epic laser lances

 Overread wrote:
Lets also not forget that there is still an Eldar subfaction that rides dinosaurs into war. Although GW hasn't really paid any attention to them in decades (outside of possible mentions in stories from BL); but they are there, riding monsters into battle.

Exodites aren't exactly running around the galaxy conquering everything.

Anyone who has gone off-road will attest that there is certain terrain that vehicles struggle with and the Imperium is so heavily stuck within its limited mindset that they won't advance designs to meet challenging conditions all the time.
Plus extreme climatic factors can affect machines just as they do living animals. Sometimes a living animal is superior because its adapted to a specific environment that might put increased wear and tear or cause faults in machinery mass produced for general use.

This is a nonargument. Look at the GSC range, all of a sudden the Imperium has this equipment in the form of the Ridgerunners, quads, and Jackal bikes that are described as being for extreme climatic factors.

Also Space Wolves ride to battle on wolves now - oversized (sometimes augmented) wolves

And? Space Wolves also are the only codex currently for Marines that get Bolt Carbines on their Lieutenant equivalents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

Whilst dragoons are still useful, admittedly charging the enemy to engage them with a lance in melee is somewhat obsolete But it looks bloody awesome, so I'd rather keep them in the AM roster.

People continually cite this specific event as though it actually should mean something.

The whole point of why this specific instance was so extensively documented and why it was so notable is the fact that it was so abnormal. Special forces were embedded with a local population and had to use local transportation.

Also, as you said: dragoons are still useful. These soldiers were acting as forward observers for airstrikes and later as dismounted infantry.

There are two types of people in this world- those who love Rough Riders and those who are wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Lets also not forget that there is still an Eldar subfaction that rides dinosaurs into war. Although GW hasn't really paid any attention to them in decades (outside of possible mentions in stories from BL); but they are there, riding monsters into battle.

Exodites aren't exactly running around the galaxy conquering everything.

Anyone who has gone off-road will attest that there is certain terrain that vehicles struggle with and the Imperium is so heavily stuck within its limited mindset that they won't advance designs to meet challenging conditions all the time.
Plus extreme climatic factors can affect machines just as they do living animals. Sometimes a living animal is superior because its adapted to a specific environment that might put increased wear and tear or cause faults in machinery mass produced for general use.

This is a nonargument. Look at the GSC range, all of a sudden the Imperium has this equipment in the form of the Ridgerunners, quads, and Jackal bikes that are described as being for extreme climatic factors.

Also Space Wolves ride to battle on wolves now - oversized (sometimes augmented) wolves

And? Space Wolves also are the only codex currently for Marines that get Bolt Carbines on their Lieutenant equivalents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

Whilst dragoons are still useful, admittedly charging the enemy to engage them with a lance in melee is somewhat obsolete But it looks bloody awesome, so I'd rather keep them in the AM roster.

People continually cite this specific event as though it actually should mean something.

The whole point of why this specific instance was so extensively documented and why it was so notable is the fact that it was so abnormal. Special forces were embedded with a local population and had to use local transportation.

Also, as you said: dragoons are still useful. These soldiers were acting as forward observers for airstrikes and later as dismounted infantry.

Give horses more credit, from my quick internet research, horses fell out of military combat favor after the end of WW2.

I want to be able to fill a brigade without having to tanks in an infantry formation.
So I take horses. Makes sense to me!

I like rough riders as a reminder to what 40k is and isn't. What it is, is a crazy space fantasy setting designed for constant warring factions of Tolkien races, actual demons, terminator robots, magic and pre-1980s sci-fi space monster/bugs. Oh, and anime robots. The blocky 1980s ones, not the sleek bio-mecha type ones. A setting where most armies haven't progressed beyond WWI tactics of lining up huge number of tightly packed troops and sending them in waves across no man's land. And this works because in the universe close combat is just as effective as ranged. And artillery/close air/space support strikes don't work all that well.

What 40k is not, largely, is a science fiction future (or even post WWII) war setting. The tech is just science-y enough to feel high tech but really there to explain a lot of the crazy stuff. However, the more someone tries to make the science work in setting the worse the setting looks because of how ridiculous it really is. So it is best not to go too far down the realism rabbit hole as it breaks with the lightest of scrutiny.

I think part of what kept 40k going is the fact is that with all of its anachronistic tech, battle tactics, etc. it has created a sort of timeless setting that feels both like the far future and also the long ago past. It never really feels like the now though. Well that, and liberally 'borrowing' nearly every decent fantasy/sci-fi idea from the 1950s to the 1980s.

I liked the hobby aspect. Normal infantry dude on a normal horse wasn't my cup of tea, so I put together a rag-tag group of rebels on motorbikes.

They were fun to build and paint. They might even hit the table. Someday.

leopard wrote:
those bikes are ideal, something to get individuals moving about.

quad bikes? heavy weapons team transports? crew of three, drops off and then scarpers leaving the weapon and two crew?

Run them.as scout sentinels. All terrain chassis carrying a single support weapon. Sounds similar

People like options.

Some may not like the high cost of a hellhound and the utility of a sentinel. Having a cheap unit that can come on from a board edge at a later turn for cheap points is tactically very useful.

I like to keep my fast attack slots cheap and that means going by codex taking a sentinel for 35-40pts. Sentinels die pretty easily and have subpar fire power so having a unit that can go for backfield objectives is very good.

Personally, a guy on a horse charging into combat makes more sense than a bike doing so. Bikes are harder to steer with no hands; and have trouble standing upright below a certain speed.

Also horses are quieter.

"Remember men, that on this recon with have to be quiet to not alert the enemy." Starts bike, RAAAAAAAAAAARH!!!

Tygre wrote:
Personally, a guy on a horse charging into combat makes more sense than a bike doing so. Bikes are harder to steer with no hands; and have trouble standing upright below a certain speed.

Truthfully, this is the whole reason why Rough Riders are such a poor concept. It's someone charging with a mount and an exploding lance.

Look at the Atalan Jackals. They can take CCWs but also can be bringing actual ranged weapons to the party. Their associated special character type? It's a sniper on a motorcycle.
It's not hard to envision Guard getting bikers with utility effects for artillery in the back or toting normal ranged weapons instead of just "Grrrr! Charge!"

Also horses are quieter.

"Remember men, that on this recon with have to be quiet to not alert the enemy." Starts bike, RAAAAAAAAAAARH!!!

Horses being quieter is...debatable. Horses can be pretty damn loud when they want to be and they can have a heck of a temper.

Since people keep wanting to bring Real World(tm) into this...look into the kinds of motorcycles that the military uses now for special operations. All kinds of fun gadgets from headlights that only show up with night vision gear active to muffled engines or solar/electric motors.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's someone charging with a mount and an exploding lance.

Yes, this is exactly why it is perfect. Charging with a horse and an exploding lance, against a space marine with a chainsaw sword and RPG pistol or a horde of rioting British soccer fans led by Margaret Thatcher. A cavalry charge fits the setting beautifully.

Can you imagine the maintenance of horses in a 40k environment?

Not to mention it will take a bullet to bring a horse down but bikes are likely to survive some income fire.

But yes horses are cool cos its flying rodent gak crazy thing to do.

 Irbis wrote:
Oh wait. Oh well, it's not like they played big enough role in recent wars to get monument or anything...

Oh wait, again Methinks it's not the cavalry fans that are stuck in single-minded, wrong mentality here...

And how many successful cavalry charges were there in Afghanistan?

How many battles were turned by the presence of cavalry on the battlefield?

Right...

The horse's sole value on a modern battlefield is the ability to transport men and material across rough terrain. It is done better by vehicles anyway.

Tygre wrote:
Personally, a guy on a horse charging into combat makes more sense than a bike doing so. Bikes are harder to steer with no hands; and have trouble standing upright below a certain speed.

Also horses are quieter.

"Remember men, that on this recon with have to be quiet to not alert the enemy." Starts bike, RAAAAAAAAAAARH!!!

You do realize that the civilian motorbikes you are accustomed to are custom built to be as loud as possible right?

A bike made for military use would probably be much quieter, probably not as quiet as a horse, but still.

A bike with solid construction doesn't die or buck its rider after it gets shot either...

They are also much easier to maintain and keep operating.