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So I guess obliterators are getting new rules? Since there are only 2 in the box, maybe a minimum of 1 per unit with increased points per unit and stronger power?

Yes - the new rules have already leaked (https://imgur.com/a/OpJx7yg).

Rules is one thing, but they seem to have went up in point cost. 18 PL per unit of 3 is a lot.

They're also now Assault 6 instead of 4 so a nice boost there.

From what we can guess, 2 will now cost the same as 3 used to, but they got a slight boost so that 2 will put out the same firepower as 3.

I guess the reason for this is the box has a unit of 2 and that will probably be what the box is if/when they are released separately.

Wayniac wrote:
From what we can guess, 2 will now cost the same as 3 used to, but they got a slight boost so that 2 will put out the same firepower as 3.

I guess the reason for this is the box has a unit of 2 and that will probably be what the box is if/when they are released separately.

This also opens up quite some options for GW, for example selling them a piece for 20 EUR in easy to build kits, they would still sell like crazy

But 2 die much faster then 3. They aren't walking around with ++3 re-rollable saves. having 2 extra shots per dude,which is the same number of shots as the old oblits had, is true only till the first one dies, then they become less efficient for more points.

they are still better now as you can take 3 and benefit even more from the broken +1 wound strat.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
they are still better now as you can take 3 and benefit even more from the broken +1 wound strat.

And fire twice, that's 50% more firepower than before, if they're not getting 50% more expensive, it's a huge buff, you're getting 36 shots, you needed 2 squads of them, one firing twice to get the same volume, so it's a buff and a huge one

On the surface, the boosts look really good and certainly match the new model.
But at PL6 per model, there is no way they are less than 100ppm. More than likely they will be 110-120ppm.

They still look good at the points cost, but hardly auto-take (which is good). Overall, though, not as big a buff as it would seem just based on the datasheet.

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I think it will largely depend on how much they go up. If it's small, it won't matter. If they go up to where 2 really cost the same as 3, that is IMHO a net nerf.

For me the main interesting part is the weapons are still "Fleshmetal weapons" but the models obviously have other types like they used to. This makes me think that at one point the rules were going to revert back to how it used to be before 8th, or there's a new book on the horizon that is going to bring it back. It's not like GW to make a model that visibly has certain weapons, but has an amalgamated profile for them.

Wayniac wrote:
If they go up to where 2 really cost the same as 3, that is IMHO a net nerf.

At PL6 per model, this is almost guaranteed.
3 were PL10 before, 2 are now PL12. Even if we allow some variance for Points =/= PL, there is almost no chance 2 of the new Oblits are cheaper than 3 of the old.

More than likely 2 of the new Oblits WILL be slightly more expensive than 3 Olbits with the current/old rules.

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We're also paying for a hand to hand upgrade that you'll only be using if everything's gone pear-shaped.

It sucks quite a bit honestly, but that's just my opinion.

Venomcrawler is trash.

Mast of Possession is only as good as the new spells.

Greater Possessed are interesting though, definitely some interesting angles there.

Maybe they'll make Abaddon an LoW and really hose us, that would be about par for the course.

Yeah, I don't get the Venomcrawler. Maybe it will be a sleeper though, it's a cool model so could have some use. I just don't see how it outclasses a Maulerfiend unless it's dirt cheap, and I'm guessing it will be around 120 points.

Venomcrawler seems awful so far. Too little shooting, too mediocre-to-bad hth, very fragile for its size. More than anyone it feels awkward. It packs assault weapons, so it's supposed to move and shoot, but it buffs summoning which needs the caster to stay immobile in the first place. And the crawler is faster than the master anyways, so what's the point of the assault weapons?

If the Master had a rule like "Can move AND summon a unit in the same turn" I could see that being a thing (and a really interesting caster on top of it, rather than just another sorcerer).

topaxygouroun i wrote:
If the Master had a rule like "Can move AND summon a unit in the same turn" I could see that being a thing (and a really interesting caster on top of it, rather than just another sorcerer).

Keep in mind that we haven't seen what the Malefic Discipline does yet. I would be very surprised if it doesn't include a Summoning power. So you could quite possibly be able to move and Summon.

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 Galef wrote:
Keep in mind that we haven't seen what the Malefic Discipline does yet. I would be very surprised if it doesn't include a Summoning power. So you could quite possibly be able to move and Summon.

Honestly, the value of the model hinges entirely on the new Discipline, because the rest of him is nothing to write home about. Certainly nothing I'm going to pull a Thousand Sons caster out of my list to make room for.

Oblits despite individually scaling up offensively and in cost, scaled down in survivability with the unit getting smaller. In general I'm happy GW did something to better differentiate them from their Loyalist counterparts, centurions, but GW will need to adjust their cost. Looking at them as whole, I'd say 20-30% cheaper.


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topaxygouroun i wrote:
Venomcrawler seems awful so far. Too little shooting, too mediocre-to-bad hth, very fragile for its size. More than anyone it feels awkward. It packs assault weapons, so it's supposed to move and shoot, but it buffs summoning which needs the caster to stay immobile in the first place. And the crawler is faster than the master anyways, so what's the point of the assault weapons?

If the Master had a rule like "Can move AND summon a unit in the same turn" I could see that being a thing (and a really interesting caster on top of it, rather than just another sorcerer).

You're right we need to see what the MoP can do and if what the Venomcrawler does contributes in a meaningful enough way. It'd be nice if the MoP's floating gave him a better enough movement to keep up with the Venomcrawler.

In the end the Venomcrawler and MoP needs to create a situation reliable enough that we can think of the Venomcrawler as a good daemon transport, and not just the weaker chaos analogue to the Mechanicus Dunecrawler.

Wayniac wrote:
I think it will largely depend on how much they go up. If it's small, it won't matter. If they go up to where 2 really cost the same as 3, that is IMHO a net nerf.

For me the main interesting part is the weapons are still "Fleshmetal weapons" but the models obviously have other types like they used to. This makes me think that at one point the rules were going to revert back to how it used to be before 8th, or there's a new book on the horizon that is going to bring it back. It's not like GW to make a model that visibly has certain weapons, but has an amalgamated profile for them.

The model may well have been designed 2+ years ago. Fleshmetal just best represents whatever particular weapon ends up firing at that time.


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Wayniac wrote:
Yeah, I don't get the Venomcrawler. Maybe it will be a sleeper though, it's a cool model so could have some use. I just don't see how it outclasses a Maulerfiend unless it's dirt cheap, and I'm guessing it will be around 120 points.

S9 shots when the Greater Possessed is around. Gun is assault so it can get to melee without penalty. I just wish we knew it's attacks.

Scanning the CSM book I think Obliterators are internally all right; approximate the d3s in the weapon profile as 2s for 8/-2/d3 and it looks to me like they're not wildly out of line with the rest of the Heavy Support section (they tend to be squishier but have comparable or better damage output than the armour).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Scanning the CSM book I think Obliterators are internally all right; approximate the d3s in the weapon profile as 2s for 8/-2/d3 and it looks to me like they're not wildly out of line with the rest of the Heavy Support section (they tend to be squishier but have comparable or better damage output than the armour).

If they end up costing over 100 ppm that's a pretty huge nerf to one of the few consistent performers in the Codex.

The one-of units could be a saving grace. Maybe.

I'd still run 3 - anything I can do to limit the number of cultists I have to take is a good thing

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Scanning the CSM book I think Obliterators are internally all right; approximate the d3s in the weapon profile as 2s for 8/-2/d3 and it looks to me like they're not wildly out of line with the rest of the Heavy Support section (they tend to be squishier but have comparable or better damage output than the armour).

If they end up costing over 100 ppm that's a pretty huge nerf to one of the few consistent performers in the Codex.

Maybe? At 100PPM you're paying about +60% points for T5, an extra Wound, +50% firepower, a melee weapon, and the ability to take squads of 1-3 instead of exactly 3. Not sure it's a "huge nerf" given how massive a bump to survivability T4->T5 is.

Addendum: My contact with the 8e CSM rules is a game or two running my 30k Thousand Sons with the 40k Codex and deciding I didn't like it very much, so it's entirely possible that my armchair math-based impression is wrong, though I can tell you from my experience with Terminators (T4/2+) and Custodians (T5/2+) that the T bump is really quite good.

The problem is that the 100 pt mark is the Hellbrute territory (post weapons) and that one sports T7 and 8 wounds. A single infantry model for 100 points feels awkward.

I am hoping they are going to be allowed in DG and 1ksons now. I am tired of trying to fit CSM detatchment into my lists if I want to take the obliterators. Im also hoping all the current daemon engines get a rework so their shooty weapons are str based like all the deathguard ones are and the new one. Might make the forgefiend and heldrake not complete garbage.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Scanning the CSM book I think Obliterators are internally all right; approximate the d3s in the weapon profile as 2s for 8/-2/d3 and it looks to me like they're not wildly out of line with the rest of the Heavy Support section (they tend to be squishier but have comparable or better damage output than the armour).

If they end up costing over 100 ppm that's a pretty huge nerf to one of the few consistent performers in the Codex.

No unit I can find with a PL over 5 has a minimum points cost below 100pts. There might be some out there, but they either have a very high max point cost once fully decked-out, or there has been some CA points tweak on them since their PL was established.

1PL is still roughly equal to 20ppm across the board. There has just been a lot of points tweaks that muck up that "formula".
But since the new Oblits are a brand new datasheet, we can rely on the 1PL ~ 20pts method. So it is an almost guarantee that a single Oblit is over 100ppm
Which I think is still fine as they should still be a good unit.

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The Salt Mine wrote:
I am hoping they are going to be allowed in DG and 1ksons now. I am tired of trying to fit CSM detatchment into my lists if I want to take the obliterators. Im also hoping all the current daemon engines get a rework so their shooty weapons are str based like all the deathguard ones are and the new one. Might make the forgefiend and heldrake not complete garbage.

Forgefiend is garbage? Gets pumped from daemonforge and flickering flames. I think it's pretty decent in fact in scenarios where there is no FW allowed (otherwise the hellforged contemptor eats it for breakfast for less points, which is super sad).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Maybe? At 100PPM you're paying about +60% points for T5, an extra Wound, +50% firepower, a melee weapon, and the ability to take squads of 1-3 instead of exactly 3. Not sure it's a "huge nerf" given how massive a bump to survivability T4->T5 is.

Not really a maybe. It takes 3 squads from being about 1/3 of your points to about 1/2. It reduces their survivability because there will be less to protect them from assault and short range firepower.

If Abaddon ends up changing and/or going up in cost you've now taken one of the more consistent list configurations that CSM has and seriously kneecapped it, since that would push the combo up over half your points, now you can't deepstrike that package onto the table. This further reduces survivability for a very small number of units.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The problem is that the 100 pt mark is the Hellbrute territory (post weapons) and that one sports T7 and 8 wounds. A single infantry model for 100 points feels awkward.

Not sure he really counts as an "infantry model". At T5/W4/2+ the closest statline comparison I've got is an Allarus Terminator, who costs around 80pts, is a bit tougher due to 4++ and a 6+ FNP in the psychic phase, but doesn't have anything like the damage output (4 8/-2/d3 in melee is all well and good but 6 8/-2/d3 at range is way, way better).


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Maybe? At 100PPM you're paying about +60% points for T5, an extra Wound, +50% firepower, a melee weapon, and the ability to take squads of 1-3 instead of exactly 3. Not sure it's a "huge nerf" given how massive a bump to survivability T4->T5 is.

Not really a maybe. It takes 3 squads from being about 1/3 of your points to about 1/2. It reduces their survivability because there will be less to protect them from assault and short range firepower.

If Abaddon ends up changing and/or going up in cost you've now taken one of the more consistent list configurations that CSM has and seriously kneecapped it, since that would push the combo up over half your points, now you can't deepstrike that package onto the table. This further reduces survivability for a very small number of units.

The cost of getting 36 shots out of your deepstrike package of Obliterators will have gone up from 585 (65pts/model for nine models) to 600 (100pts/model for six models). They will have 24 wounds (6*4) instead of 27 (9*3) and be protected by T5 where they had T4 before. The alpha-strike potential will be different and you won't be running the exact same list anymore but I still fail to see how this is a "huge nerf".