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Oblits (and the double shooting strats in general) are a good example of the terrible game design GW has gone down with the strats.

Playing against an army with no Vect, pwn your face with double shooting for days. Oh, you have vect, this unit is now 50%+ over costed.

They fell out of favor in competitive lists once vect came out and are really dead now that GSC have it too. Doesn't help if you happen to face them without access to one of those strats...

 Galef wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
115pts. Bye bye oblits

I think that's a bit of an over-reaction. Oblits were arguably too good for their cost before. This is a correction that also accommodates the new model.

Look at it this way, the old Oblits probably should have been about 75ppm. So for 3 of them that would have been 225pts. You can get 2 of the new Oblits for 230pt
For 5pts more, you get T5, which will have a significant impact on their survivability. And with 6 shots per model, 2 is the same as 3 of the old, so you get the same number of shots.
You also get the ability to take only 1, which has merit. And taking 3, while very much more expensive than before, has MUCH more buff potential

Overall, I truly think they are better than before, but you now pay for what you get. So competitively, it evens out. Oblits are still valid, but will be used differently
Players will either invest less points on just fielding units of 1 instead of the full 3 of the old, or lean into the skid and dump more points on taking even more

-

When you look at all the Obliterator changes and their statistical impact, 5 points over 3 old Oblits for the 2 new Obliterators is what it should cost. However that calculation doesn't take into consideration that you will lose offensive firepower that much more quickly; when the old Oblits were at 50% of their wounds they retain 66% of their shooting; where the new Oblits are down to 50% of their shooting effectiveness.

I won't begin to try and assess what the old Obliterators should cost, but I think its objectively clear whatever a squad of 3 old ones should cost 2 of the new ones actually end up a break even trade off and should be priced the same as the 3 old Obliterators. I think they will eventually come down in price.

An aspect that is problematic is that when you go to plug them into an existing army... all other things being the same the cost difference means you can actually only replace your 3 old Obliterators with 1 new Obliterator; that to take 2 you will be editing down your list. Chaos not being a particularly point efficient army, losing a point efficient unit for a less efficient version, means to break even on this unit you will be diminishing some other unit in your army. Then when you look at the numbers and the reliance on buffs to live up to their cost, to optimize their performance you need to take 3.

To me all that is the meta-level equivalent of circling the drain. I still think there is a place for Obliterators; their second best optimization point is as a single mini where their potential is just slightly higher than their cost. Units of individual Obliterators are what you will see if people aren't committing to an obliterator christmas tree of buffs. Even then, given the available unit alternatives that are more cost effective than the new version I think there is a good chance you will see just a single squad of a single Obliterator in a number of armies... after things settle in and percolate through the meta.


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bananathug wrote:
Oblits (and the double shooting strats in general) are a good example of the terrible game design GW has gone down with the strats.

Playing against an army with no Vect, pwn your face with double shooting for days. Oh, you have vect, this unit is now 50%+ over costed.

They fell out of favor in competitive lists once vect came out and are really dead now that GSC have it too. Doesn't help if you happen to face them without access to one of those strats...

Many strats should be made single use per game.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I won't begin to try and assess what the old Obliterators should cost, but I think its objectively clear whatever a squad of 3 old ones should cost 2 of the new ones actually end up a break even trade off and should be priced the same as the 3 old Obliterators. I think they will eventually come down in price.

I can agree with that. To GWs credit, however, it does seem like they are being a bit cautious with pricing dramatically change/new rules in most cases.
But I would certain expect a price decrease by at least CA2019, but probably sooner via a new CSM codex that might be only the way. It would make perfect sense for a new Codex to drop alongside the stand-alone boxes for the units in Shadowspear. That would be the ideal time to drop the points on the Nubilits

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 Galef wrote:

But I would certain expect a price decrease by at least CA2019, but probably sooner via a new CSM codex that might be only the way. It would make perfect sense for a new Codex to drop alongside the stand-alone boxes for the units in Shadowspear. That would be the ideal time to drop the points on the Nubilits

-

CSM are the first army to get an update of their codex alongside shadowspear as you are wishing. Likely to be the same point cost as the leaks as this book would have been at the printers. If there is a CA2019 price drop, it just makes a mockery of the codex.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Galef wrote:

But I would certain expect a price decrease by at least CA2019, but probably sooner via a new CSM codex that might be only the way. It would make perfect sense for a new Codex to drop alongside the stand-alone boxes for the units in Shadowspear. That would be the ideal time to drop the points on the Nubilits

-

CSM are the first army to get an update of their codex alongside shadowspear as you are wishing. Likely to be the same point cost as the leaks as this book would have been at the printers. If there is a CA2019 price drop, it just makes a mockery of the codex.

Maybe not, it's possiable the dhadowspear books where printed ages ago, heck Jes Goodwin says the design process was made when dark Imperium was being done

‘Mere Mortals’ rule can just be made out on the Black Legion preview page from Vigilus Ablaze on the WHC site. It is a rule that appears to remove Legion traits from Cultists. Not entirely surprising from a fluff perspective, but mildly demoralizing nonetheless. The new Codex looks like it will be ‘fixing’ more than a few things.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
‘Mere Mortals’ rule can just be made out on the Black Legion preview page from Vigilus Ablaze on the WHC site. It is a rule that appears to remove Legion traits from Cultists. Not entirely surprising from a fluff perspective, but mildly demoralizing nonetheless. The new Codex looks like it will be ‘fixing’ more than a few things.

in fairness people have been saying they need a reason to take CSMs for a long time, problem is that there's little real reason to do that, if you step back and look at 40k list trends on a whole, when you have an army with 2 troops options, they'll useally take the cheaper option unless there is something compelling about chosing the other option. right now cultists are basicly just infantry with a rifle or a CCW/Pistol. CSMs meanwhile are infantry with a Rifle or a CCW. the reasons to choose CSMs over cultists aren't compelling eneugh, removjng chapter tactics from Cultists makes sense and gives CSMs that little bit more of an edge. even with that in mind I'll proably still use cultists in my CSM army. if only to pad out detachments for maximum CP gain.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Galef wrote:

But I would certain expect a price decrease by at least CA2019, but probably sooner via a new CSM codex that might be only the way. It would make perfect sense for a new Codex to drop alongside the stand-alone boxes for the units in Shadowspear. That would be the ideal time to drop the points on the Nubilits

-

CSM are the first army to get an update of their codex alongside shadowspear as you are wishing. Likely to be the same point cost as the leaks as this book would have been at the printers. If there is a CA2019 price drop, it just makes a mockery of the codex.

No it doesn’t. Hyperbolic language is hyperbolic. It’s mildly annoying from one POV; from another it’s awesome they kept playtesting and improving balance after sending a book to the printers. It takes months to print a book, hours to knock up and upload a PDF.


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
‘Mere Mortals’ rule can just be made out on the Black Legion preview page from Vigilus Ablaze on the WHC site. It is a rule that appears to remove Legion traits from Cultists. Not entirely surprising from a fluff perspective, but mildly demoralizing nonetheless. The new Codex looks like it will be ‘fixing’ more than a few things.

I can live without the miraculously stealthy blob of 40 guys with rusty guns and no training. That are somehow stealthy.

Not sure my AL opponent will be so happy.

The new Codex is just an update to consolidate FAQs, update points costs from Chapter Approved and include the new Datasheets coming. It doesn't seem like a real 2.0 revision like people were expecting, say from 3.0 to 3.5 back in the day. I would be surprised if it actually updated any existing sheets that weren't already modified (e.g. Obliterators) or changed anything rules-wise. It looks like just an updated reprint and not changing the majority of the rules like, for example, the 3rd revision of the Blades of Khorne book is doing for AOS where it's actually a new codex, not just consolidating updates.

The fact their own chart shows if you already own the CSM codex you don't need to buy the "2.0" one lends credence to this idea that it won't have any major changes that we don't already know about.

Which brings up a very interesting point. We've seen at least one new model (the Lord Discordant) which, unless he's in Vigilus Ablaze, would mean there's something else coming with Datasheets. I doubt he will be in the updated codex.

What I'm really hoping is that the Big FAQ applies "Mere Mortals" to every legion (assuming Vigilus Ablaze doesn't do that already) as well as make them not affected by VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems.

What I'm really hoping is that the Big FAQ applies "Mere Mortals" to every legion (assuming Vigilus Ablaze doesn't do that already) as well as make them not affected by VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems.

Reasoning beeing?
It is one of the few actual usefull units left in the Codex.

Wayniac wrote:
The new Codex is just an update to consolidate FAQs, update points costs from Chapter Approved and include the new Datasheets coming. It doesn't seem like a real 2.0 revision like people were expecting, say from 3.0 to 3.5 back in the day. I would be surprised if it actually updated any existing sheets that weren't already modified (e.g. Obliterators) or changed anything rules-wise. It looks like just an updated reprint and not changing the majority of the rules like, for example, the 3rd revision of the Blades of Khorne book is doing for AOS where it's actually a new codex, not just consolidating updates.

The fact their own chart shows if you already own the CSM codex you don't need to buy the "2.0" one lends credence to this idea that it won't have any major changes that we don't already know about.

Yeah this was my first impression when I saw the chart.
It's pretty safe to assume no changes in the codex, only consolidation of changes we've had since the first Codex dropped, including the new Vigilis units.

While this is ok on the surface, I think it has poor implications for future "updates". It's very likely that after the new Chaos Codex comes out, the next Codex will be a similar Space Marine update, that is also just a consolidation of prior changes and inclusion of new units.
Although it will be interesting to see if they do the same for DAs, SWs and BAs, or if you just stick with getting the Vanguard Marine book.

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Not Online!!! wrote:

What I'm really hoping is that the Big FAQ applies "Mere Mortals" to every legion (assuming Vigilus Ablaze doesn't do that already) as well as make them not affected by VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems.

Reasoning beeing?
It is one of the few actual usefull units left in the Codex.

I also replied in the other thread, but so it's clear that Cultists are not meant to be the main unit you see in chaos armies. There's no reason cultists need to get VOTLW.

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What I'm really hoping is that the Big FAQ applies "Mere Mortals" to every legion (assuming Vigilus Ablaze doesn't do that already) as well as make them not affected by VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems.

Reasoning beeing?
It is one of the few actual usefull units left in the Codex.

I also replied in the other thread, but so it's clear that Cultists are not meant to be the main unit you see in chaos armies. There's no reason cultists need to get VOTLW.

That would make a case if CSM actually had a fieldable unit in the troop slot other than cultists. If they think that they will make Chaos marines playable by nerfing what's left in a very underwhelming codex and still think they are going to get my money, well I do have news for them.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

I can live without the miraculously stealthy blob of 40 guys with rusty guns and no training. That are somehow stealthy.

Not sure my AL opponent will be so happy.

Would be interesting if Alpha Legion Cultists kept their Legion tactics as they were actually highly trained specialists and saboteurs in the 3rd Edition Codex.
That being said I wouldn't be surprised if GW changed the AL tactic, too.

Wayniac wrote:
I also replied in the other thread, but so it's clear that Cultists are not meant to be the main unit you see in chaos armies. There's no reason cultists need to get VOTLW.

I'm not quite comfortable relegating them to 'warm body' status yet. While I agree that Veterans doesn't make a lot of sense for Cultists, the Mark specific stratagems should probably still be available to them, although, without Veterans you probably aren't going to bother with any strats on them other than ToT.

I'm all for cultist losing these abilities, provided that they drop back to 4 pts and everyone else takes similar fluff based nerfs. How about we force Guard to take platoons again? Maybe we move scouts to fast attack or elites because it's clear that GW never wanted scouts as the main troop choice?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I also replied in the other thread, but so it's clear that Cultists are not meant to be the main unit you see in chaos armies. There's no reason cultists need to get VOTLW.

I'm not quite comfortable relegating them to 'warm body' status yet. While I agree that Veterans doesn't make a lot of sense for Cultists, the Mark specific stratagems should probably still be available to them, although, without Veterans you probably aren't going to bother with any strats on them other than ToT.

We don't know what is or isn't available to Cultists yet. We just have a bit that suggests they lose Legion Traits.


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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I'm all for cultist losing these abilities, provided that they drop back to 4 pts and everyone else takes similar fluff based nerfs. How about we force Guard to take platoons again?

Why in the world is it that people keep thinking this will fix anything?

So we're clear:
You put Guard back into Platoons, a Guard list will look like:
-1x Commander
-1x Command Squad
-2+ Infantry Squads
-Heavy Weapon, Conscript, and Special Weapon Squads to fit

All as a single Troops choice.

OR
-Scion Squad per Troop choice

Platoons were a garbage mechanism that was viable when Veterans were a Troop choice. Veterans are Elite choices now, Conscripts(who need to lose the <Regiment> keyword and go down in points as well) are Troops choices independent of the Platoon that just don't work thanks to the Commissar nerf.

Maybe we move scouts to fast attack or elites because it's clear that GW never wanted scouts as the main troop choice?

Scouts are still actually Marines.
Cultists are scum that cling to the bottom of their masters' boots.

Now, if you want to argue that Cultists should drop down to 3ppm, lose Legion traits, and can't benefit from any auras? I'm down for that.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't know what is or isn't available to Cultists yet. We just have a bit that suggests they lose Legion Traits.

Agreed, beyond losing Legion traits, which I have to say is pretty much guaranteed at this point, we don't know much. But removing Legion traits does infer a lot of other things, specifically, segregating Cultists from a lot of the Legion-specific rules, which would naturally imply certain stratagems are probably going to stop being available to them. If they lose the Heretic Astartes tag, that would be a pretty huge change.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't know what is or isn't available to Cultists yet. We just have a bit that suggests they lose Legion Traits.

Agreed, beyond losing Legion traits, which I have to say is pretty much guaranteed at this point, we don't know much. But removing Legion traits does infer a lot of other things, specifically, segregating Cultists from a lot of the Legion-specific rules, which would naturally imply certain stratagems are probably going to stop being available to them. If they lose the Heretic Astartes tag, that would be a pretty huge change.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did it similarly to the Brood Brothers unit in GSC. They retain the faction keyword but lose the <> one.

As if 5 pt cultists would warrant more nerfing at this point.

The more rumours coming in, the more I'm afraid CSM is going to be a really low tier army.

bananathug wrote:
Oblits (and the double shooting strats in general) are a good example of the terrible game design GW has gone down with the strats.

Playing against an army with no Vect, pwn your face with double shooting for days. Oh, you have vect, this unit is now 50%+ over costed.

They fell out of favor in competitive lists once vect came out and are really dead now that GSC have it too. Doesn't help if you happen to face them without access to one of those strats...

GW is habitually pricing units around Strategems and buffs when it is the Strategems and buffs that should be priced around the units.

Does it matter certain Cultists can fire twice when there are already THREE Legions incapable of doing it? And then they're priced all the same?

Why in the world is it that people keep thinking this will fix anything?

So we're clear:
You put Guard back into Platoons, a Guard list will look like:
-1x Commander
-1x Command Squad
-2+ Infantry Squads
-Heavy Weapon, Conscript, and Special Weapon Squads to fit

All as a single Troops choice.

OR
-Scion Squad per Troop choice

Platoons were a garbage mechanism that was viable when Veterans were a Troop choice. Veterans are Elite choices now, Conscripts(who need to lose the <Regiment> keyword and go down in points as well) are Troops choices independent of the Platoon that just don't work thanks to the Commissar nerf.

You seem to want to kick one faction in the teeth so I figure we can just spread the love around. Platoons would be cumbersome but at least it kills the loyal 32. And fluff wise now you’ll get the actual formations in the regiments instead of a bunch of random squads running around.

Scouts are still actually Marines.
Cultists are scum that cling to the bottom of their masters'
Now, if you want to argue that Cultists should drop down to 3ppm, lose Legion traits, and can't benefit from any auras? I'm down for that.

So Deveatators are still actually marines. So are Vets and assault marines. Should they be troops too? You’re also off the mark for cultists. Yes some are just whatever crazed fantatics chaos can round up. There are plenty of other examples for legions training up disciplined units of cultists. Most notably the alpha legion makes use of that.

I’ll take your offer if conscripts lose regiment traits and can’t benefit from any aura or stratagems and infantry squads only take orders on a 4+. Do you want to make a serious offer now?

A Guard Platoon was a thing because you couldn't build an infantry list without running out of slots in the age of one-detachment armies (3e-5e). These days one Brigade gets you about three old-school platoons worth of units, and you've still got two detachments left.

If you want to punish the Loyal 32 you could punish the Loyal 32 instead of introducing unwarranted and tweaks to all Guard armies that in practice are mostly a buff to infantry-spam armies (going from 3 Platoon Commanders allowed ever to one per Troops choice?).


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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Scouts are still actually Marines.
Cultists are scum that cling to the bottom of their masters'
Now, if you want to argue that Cultists should drop down to 3ppm, lose Legion traits, and can't benefit from any auras? I'm down for that.

So Deveatators are still actually marines. So are Vets and assault marines. Should they be troops too? You’re also off the mark for cultists. Yes some are just whatever crazed fantatics chaos can round up. There are plenty of other examples for legions training up disciplined units of cultists. Most notably the alpha legion makes use of that.

I’ll take your offer if conscripts lose regiment traits and can’t benefit from any aura or stratagems and infantry squads only take orders on a 4+. Do you want to make a serious offer now?

Might be a saner idea to delete "Cultists" from the CSM book and release a functional/playable Renegades and Heretics/Traitor Guard book.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I’ll take your offer if conscripts lose regiment traits and can’t benefit from any aura or stratagems and infantry squads only take orders on a 4+. Do you want to make a serious offer now?

I'd be ok with Guardsmen getting bumped to 6ppm also, they're clearly better than Cultists and Kroot Carnivores, roughly equivalent to Storm Guardians (given the flexibility of orders and more numerous weapon options) and not as good as Fire Warriors.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I’ll take your offer if conscripts lose regiment traits and can’t benefit from any aura or stratagems and infantry squads only take orders on a 4+. Do you want to make a serious offer now?

I'd be ok with Guardsmen getting bumped to 6ppm also, they're clearly better than Cultists and Kroot Carnivores, roughly equivalent to Storm Guardians (given the flexibility of orders and more numerous weapon options) and not as good as Fire Warriors.

Only guess what doesn't happen. Ever.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I’ll take your offer if conscripts lose regiment traits and can’t benefit from any aura or stratagems and infantry squads only take orders on a 4+. Do you want to make a serious offer now?

I'd be ok with Guardsmen getting bumped to 6ppm also, they're clearly better than Cultists and Kroot Carnivores, roughly equivalent to Storm Guardians (given the flexibility of orders and more numerous weapon options) and not as good as Fire Warriors.

IS currently cost 5.5 points each if you have a commander, which it seems you are factoring in your head space. IS should be at 5 top end without a commander. Probably maybe.

Just change the CP mechanic and make them less relevant overall.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
IS currently cost 5.5 points each if you have a commander, which it seems you are factoring in your head space. IS should be at 5 top end without a commander. Probably maybe.

Just change the CP mechanic and make them less relevant overall.

I think the small move here is to adjust the cost of a single unit, not rework fundamental mechanics that touch every army and book released in the entire game.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
IS currently cost 5.5 points each if you have a commander, which it seems you are factoring in your head space. IS should be at 5 top end without a commander. Probably maybe.

Just change the CP mechanic and make them less relevant overall.

I think the small move here is to adjust the cost of a single unit, not rework fundamental mechanics that touch every army and book released in the entire game.

Because obviously it ain't the stratagems that are broken but the units.
/Sarcasm

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
IS currently cost 5.5 points each if you have a commander, which it seems you are factoring in your head space. IS should be at 5 top end without a commander. Probably maybe.

Just change the CP mechanic and make them less relevant overall.

I think the small move here is to adjust the cost of a single unit, not rework fundamental mechanics that touch every army and book released in the entire game.

Well, it's a pretty simple mechanic that they've already changed once, so...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, it's a pretty simple mechanic that they've already changed once, so...

Not to the extent that you're suggesting. What you're suggesting would require going back and re-assessing the cost of every unit and every stratagem in every book they've released. Adjusting the cost of Guardsmen to reflect their actual value involves significantly less, and consequently has significantly less chance of cascading problems across the entire game.