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Let`s do a comparison:



They get
* 2 strategems - Loyalists get 29
* 1 warlord trait - Loyalists get 15
* 1 relic - Loyalists get 23
* 0 household traditions - Loyalists get 9 + 6 Freeblade qualities

Why on earth would I put a renegade knight in my list over a daemon engine lord of war?

Broken implies absurdly strong or not able to be played. They're just very weak. You're also comparing a free index that could've just not come out to a full codex, it's like me complaining that assassins only have (amount of stratagems they have) stratagems.

You want somthing slightly cheaper or you only have a knight?

 Phobosftw wrote:
Let`s do a comparison:



They get
* 2 strategems - Loyalists get 29
* 1 warlord trait - Loyalists get 15
* 1 relic - Loyalists get 23
* 0 household traditions - Loyalists get 9 + 6 Freeblade qualities

Why on earth would I put a renegade knight in my list over a daemon engine lord of war?

First off, they're still better than most Daemon Engines.

Second, they were never intended as a full faction in the way that Imperial Knights were. It's not a case of Chaos got the same thing but worse, rather that GW figured that Chaos players might want a way to use the models from this Imperium faction, so the rules are there if you want them.

Thirdly, twin Avenger Gatling Cannons.

I've been playing quite a bit with a full RK list. Two big knights, two Warglaives, two Helverins. Battlion of cultists and Hellwrights. My first Major I went 3-2(17th place) with that list. Had a couple tactical errors first two games that cost me. But smooth sailing games 3-5. I love playing the faction. I do however would like a little bit of love from GW giving me some additional relic (s), warlord traits and strats. I don't even really care if I don't get house traits, but that would also be cool. Overall I can't complain, double avengers is a really scary thing.

 Stux wrote:


First off, they're still better than most Daemon Engines.

Debatable after the latest CA. Also, I would bet money on a daemon engine formation in Vigilus II.

Your not wrong, it is kinda BS that GW didn't include a blurb in the IK codex or FAQ that chaos can take all the same options just change the relevant key words.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Stux wrote:


First off, they're still better than most Daemon Engines.

Debatable after the latest CA. Also, I would bet money on a daemon engine formation in Vigilus II.

Fair enough. But if it's at least debatable, then surely we can say that Renegade Knights are not brokenly bad as the OP suggests.

 Phobosftw wrote:
Let`s do a comparison:



They get
* 2 strategems - Loyalists get 29
* 1 warlord trait - Loyalists get 15
* 1 relic - Loyalists get 23
* 0 household traditions - Loyalists get 9 + 6 Freeblade qualities

Why on earth would I put a renegade knight in my list over a daemon engine lord of war?

Yup. I have a renegade knight army that i've put a ton of work into kitbashing and customizing with green stuff sculpts, but they're just blah to play.

The real issue is how vital those effects are. For many armies the warlord traits and relics are cool, and can be pretty powerful, but for an army who's warlord is nearly 1/3rd of your points, the impact those relics/warlord traits have is far greater. An Imperial knight isn't just a little better, it's miles better than the same priced renegade knight. For example without even spending any CP you can have a knight that rerolls hits in melee, avenger cannon hitting for twice as much damage, and has an extra attack, all for the same you spent on a renegade knight. There are many other combinations, and the imperial knights have some of the best faction traits in the game.

To me the chaos knight index came across as lazy, the 1 warlord trait and relic are possible the most useless things they could have chosen, and being a pdf with no print version it literally would have taken someone 15 minutes of work to fix that and make it not suck.

I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

It's beyond lazy. It would have taken next to nothing to give chaos knights either unique rules and traits or just copy paste what loyalist knights got. Instead they half assed it and gave what should be either a dark reflection at best or mirror match at worse an objectively worse version.

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

degrees of lazy.
not doing anything > doing less than 5 minutes worth of work to make an index that's literally no better than not doing anything except for one single strategem ported over.

It's hard to not call both lazy when, like i said, it would have taken someone less time than a lunch break to make it not suck.


Hell, because it's just a pdf, there's not even anything stopping them from fixing this situation now. a few simple copy paste edits, re-upload, done. The laziness of not doing that is incredible.

Danny slag wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

degrees of lazy.
not doing anything > doing less than 5 minutes worth of work to make an index that's literally no better than not doing anything except for one single strategem ported over.

It's hard to not call both lazy when, like i said, it would have taken someone less time than a lunch break to make it not suck.


Hell, because it's just a pdf, there's not even anything stopping them from fixing this situation now. a few simple copy paste edits, re-upload, done. The laziness of not doing that is incredible.

You could say the same thing about anything without a Codex though.

To me it just says there's a possibility of a Codex down the line.

How valuable are the 15 warlord traits and 23 relics, really? I don't know Knights specifically since it's not an army I play much, but across the books I do play I find that between 70 and 90% of Warlord traits and Relics are pointless flavour choices that make no difference to anyone.

 Stux wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Stux wrote:


First off, they're still better than most Daemon Engines.

Debatable after the latest CA. Also, I would bet money on a daemon engine formation in Vigilus II.

Fair enough. But if it's at least debatable, then surely we can say that Renegade Knights are not brokenly bad as the OP suggests.

Yes, I agree.

Of course, it doesn't help that we're comparing performance in the context of one of the most overpowered units in the game - Imperial Castellan with Cawl's Wrath, Ion Bulwark, and Rotate Ion Shields!

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

This. All day this. They could have given Renegade Knight players nothing. Their stratagems and warlord traits appeared before many full factions.

A renegade knight still outperforms things like wraithknights any day. As someone stated above, duel Gatling anyone?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

This. All day this. They could have given Renegade Knight players nothing. Their stratagems and warlord traits appeared before many full factions.

I agree with this, but I see no reason for Chaos not to get a codex equivalent is the thing. Give some fun god specific stuff. Yeah sure, what we got is better than nothing, but chaos getting gimped for being chaos kinda sucks.

No, it was very good of them to provide a freely available option for Chaos players. There is an imbalance in terms f respective options, but the fundamentals of the knight are strong.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

This. All day this. They could have given Renegade Knight players nothing. Their stratagems and warlord traits appeared before many full factions.

I agree with this, but I see no reason for Chaos not to get a codex equivalent is the thing. Give some fun god specific stuff. Yeah sure, what we got is better than nothing, but chaos getting gimped for being chaos kinda sucks.

That isn't what happened here. All it is is that Renegade Knights are still in Index. They're not getting persecuted, this just isn't the army that got released. The fact they got an expanded index is frankly gravy, and not something GW normally do.

 Stux wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I just see it the complete opposite way. It's not lazy, it would have been lazy to give Chaos nothing with the Imperium codex coming out.

This. All day this. They could have given Renegade Knight players nothing. Their stratagems and warlord traits appeared before many full factions.

I agree with this, but I see no reason for Chaos not to get a codex equivalent is the thing. Give some fun god specific stuff. Yeah sure, what we got is better than nothing, but chaos getting gimped for being chaos kinda sucks.

That isn't what happened here. All it is is that Renegade Knights are still in Index. They're not getting persecuted, this just isn't the army that got released. The fact they got an expanded index is frankly gravy, and not something GW normally do.

And they probably won't get a codex, at least I doubt it, but it's a possibility. It is nice that GW gave them some stuff I agree.

I have been assured in another thread that this is a PL issue, not a knight issue, so just use match play.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
I agree with this, but I see no reason for Chaos not to get a codex equivalent is the thing. Give some fun god specific stuff. Yeah sure, what we got is better than nothing, but chaos getting gimped for being chaos kinda sucks.

Forgeworld do the daemon knights, which chaos get and imperials do not (and which at various points have basically been knights +1). If and when they update the rules is anyone's guess.

A.T. wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
I agree with this, but I see no reason for Chaos not to get a codex equivalent is the thing. Give some fun god specific stuff. Yeah sure, what we got is better than nothing, but chaos getting gimped for being chaos kinda sucks.

Forgeworld do the daemon knights, which chaos get and imperials do not (and which at various points have basically been knights +1). If and when they update the rules is anyone's guess.

Yeah, feth leaving stuff to FW.

Like, I have nothing against FW, but leaving stuff to FW is just asking for it to be OP or UP.

Danny slag wrote:
To me the chaos knight index came across as lazy, the 1 warlord trait and relic are possible the most useless things they could have chosen, and being a pdf with no print version it literally would have taken someone 15 minutes of work to fix that and make it not suck.

That's not actually the case any more - it was printed in CA 2018.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
To me the chaos knight index came across as lazy, the 1 warlord trait and relic are possible the most useless things they could have chosen, and being a pdf with no print version it literally would have taken someone 15 minutes of work to fix that and make it not suck.

That's not actually the case any more - it was printed in CA 2018.

Although this raises an issue, it means it'll disappear when CA 2019 hits if it's not reprinted there or somewhere else.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
To me the chaos knight index came across as lazy, the 1 warlord trait and relic are possible the most useless things they could have chosen, and being a pdf with no print version it literally would have taken someone 15 minutes of work to fix that and make it not suck.

That's not actually the case any more - it was printed in CA 2018.

Although this raises an issue, it means it'll disappear when CA 2019 hits if it's not reprinted there or somewhere else.

Well it won't because it's a free PDF too. They won't reprint it in CA 2019.

I play Renegade Knights. I enjoy doing so, and am grateful that we got some acknowledgement in the form of the mini index (as has been pointed out, it's more than many have received in the past).

I don't think it's wrong to point out that we are very much the 'poor cousin' to our Imperial counterparts and, to hope for more though.

I have to accept we're very much a 'niche' faction at best, but figure at the same time, any development of Renegade Knights benefits the overarching Chaos faction as a whole.

I guess if it's something you want further developed, the way to go about that is to make it known to GW. There are no guarantees, but it was that that got us the mini-index, and (years of) that, that got SoB players the content they are due to receive.

I suppose otherwise we wait and see what the future holds.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
How valuable are the 15 warlord traits and 23 relics, really? I don't know Knights specifically since it's not an army I play much, but across the books I do play I find that between 70 and 90% of Warlord traits and Relics are pointless flavour choices that make no difference to anyone.

GW is bad at judging how strong things are, so any given thing is effectively random in power. The more things a faction gets, the higher the chances that one of them will be must take level powerful.