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In other games such as magic I always play a “toolbox” style strategy that has a well rounded strategy and a way to answer most anything I encounter. Usually a Grindy playstyle accompanies this. What army/faction would be play this way?

Most factions have at least one unit that can accomplish any task that you could need. Be it shooting, movement, physic, assault, durability and low cost. But in the case of sheer versatility perhaps Eldar, a combination of Craftworld and Yinnari.

But if I allowed my bias to show I'd also say go Orks. If there's a list style you want to make their faction can make it.

druuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukhari, baby. We've got your melee units, we've got your durable units, we've got your fast units, we've got your shooty units, we've got your stratagem answers to anything and everything and we've got your psychic powers if you bring allies into the party.

You want Eldar soup, basically.

Tyranids. We have a metric TON of answers, both in specific units and also equipment for said unit.

Want a *relatively* durable firebase which won't run away for a troops choice? Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters got your back. Hell hive Guard, Tyrannofex and your humble Dakkafex (Carnifex with enhanced senses and X2 twin linked devourers+ brain leech worms) can absolutely drown your opponent for a relatively good cost points wise.

Want psychic firepower? Zoanthropes, Maelcepters hive tyrants and Neurothropes bring it on, whilst screwing with enemy psychic tests within range of Shadow of the Warp

Close Combat? We have access to ONE of the nastiest CC bombs, ala Genestealers with a wealth of support and tricks to help them get where they need to do. If something short of a Knight HAS to die, 20 Genestealers + Broodlord will make it happen or your biomass back!

Want deployment shenanigans? Trygons popping up 20 Termagants all over the board, deep striking via a sporocyte (which then functions as a mini MC, eat your heart out drop pods!) Mawlocs ignoring the 9" deployment denial area and just popping up mere inches from their target whilst dealing Mortal Wounds.

Want to run a flying circus army? We got you covered. Monster army? We were the original and still the best! Swarm? We ARE the swarm!

Painting is also fun, unique to 40k (I've yet to use a single metallic and its really broadened my skills) and greenstuffing is also always fun.

eldar soup. super efficient for the points cost. ignore ton of rules or basic paradigmas in the game. Also seem to be never nerfed by GW, so a safe army to play.

Eldar or imperium soup. Soup by it's nature lends to toolbox style and those are the widest most effective ones.

Aeldari are a good toolbox. Even if you run mono-craftworld they tend to bring a little bit of everything to the table: melee, shooting, psychic powers, movement, and so on. Add other Aeldari factions into the mix and you got a stew going.

Karol wrote:
eldar soup. super efficient for the points cost. ignore ton of rules or basic paradigmas in the game. Also seem to be never nerfed by GW, so a safe army to play.

Well except for those 6/8 editions where dark eldar were terrible and those 2/2 editions where they've existed that harlequins have been terrible, but we've been ignoring those since 5 seconds after the Drukhari codex dropped.

If you are looking for soup, then yeah, either imperial soup (though that's so wide and vast it's almost useless as an army recommendation) or eldar soup is the way to go.

The reason I recommend drukhari in particular is because they're probably the single faction with the highest number of things they do at a tournament viable level. They have tournament viable flyers, light infantry, heavy infantry, vehicles, deep strikers, shooting units, melee units, and monsters. Other factions have all those things in the codex, like Orks, but they are not all viable at a tournament level and you tend to get shunted into one particular strategy. Drukhari are also probably the most ally independent faction in competitive play, needing at bare minimum one single model to create competitive lists (that being a doom farseer on a jetbike).

So if you're looking into 40k and you just want to buy 1 faction book...drukhari are your best bang for your buck, bar none.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well except for those 6/8 editions where dark eldar were terrible and those 2/2 editions where they've existed that harlequins have been terrible, but we've been ignoring those since 5 seconds after the Drukhari codex dropped.

How to tell the age of a poster in just one line.

Harlequins have existed in some form or another since 2nd edition. Sometimes as an Eldar unit, sometimes as a stand-alone mini army. Dark Eldar were not terrible in 3rd edition (afaik they didn't get any material in 2nd, so your claim of "8" editions they have been in is invalid from the getgo) and although they lost out to codex creep having to wait 12 years for a new codex, in the hands of the right player they were devastating because you could fit a LOT of 10 point Dark Lances into a Dark Eldar army at the time.

To answer the OP, I also recommend The True Eldar if you want a do-everything-and-do-it-well army. Add in some soup and it's even more versatile.

Chaos - jack of all trades and master of none!

cody.d. wrote:
Most factions have at least one unit that can accomplish any task that you could need. Be it shooting, movement, physic, assault, durability and low cost. But in the case of sheer versatility perhaps Eldar, a combination of Craftworld and Yinnari.

But if I allowed my bias to show I'd also say go Orks. If there's a list style you want to make their faction can make it.

As far as Orkz go...no. We have ZERO units that are capable of reliably killing a Knight at range. Tankbustas are short ranged and even if you do get them into range you would need to field about 40 of them in Trukkz to kill a knight in 1 turn. 40 Tankbustas = 40 shots hitting on 5s = 13.3 hits, reroll all misses so lets say 13 hits with 27 rerolls for 9 more hits = 22 hits total, 11 of them would be 6s on average so 11 more shots = 3.6 more hits with 7 rerolls for 2ish more hits, grand total of 27ish hits. 27 hits at S8 VS t8 = 14ish wounds. 14 wounds at -2 AP reduces the knights save to its 5+ invuln so 10ish go through for 30 damage. Congrats you BARELY killed a knight of indeterminate make/model...Ohh but if they have the shield strat....yeah you failed. Those 14 wounds result in 7 going through for a grand total of 21 damage. And what is the cost of 40 tankbustas in 4 Trukkz? 936pts

Tac Marines, in theory, are the poster child of toolbox units. Outchop the shooty. Outshoot the choppy. Outstay the glasscannons. Outkill the anivls. In practice, they get none of those things. And suck.

CWE, in theory, are the poster child for a toolbox army filled with specialist units. Most of their units are good at one and only one thing. In practice, their stuff often winds up OP and good at more than one thing. They can make a great toolbox army, though. Probably the best at it. Best hammers and screwdrivers around. But their screwdrivers make worse hammers than most other factions', and their hammers make worse screwdrivers than other factions.

"[eldar] Also seem to be never nerfed by GW, so a safe army to play."
Someone must have just started this game in the last few months.
They've been nerfed every cycle since their Codex came out. Name one army that's been nerfed *more*.

That said, they're still top tier even with the nerfs.

I find IG to be tool boxy. You've got range, close, mobile, static, Deepstrike. Mobile firepower in the Russ, static firepower in the Artillery.

Small sneaky units, big blobby units. The army really lets you take a little bit of everything and have it come together nicely.

In my experience, I haven't needed to win CC in 8th edition. My units can fall back, and the big guns behind them pound whatever needs to be pounded. Though I have, anecdotally, added CC upgrades to most every character because they're so cheap, and if you have a couple Power Weapon / Fists around you can often score that last wound on something that might otherwise charge a tank and tie it up.

There are CC oriented builds, but I wouldn't say they're the power build by any means.

Plus you have ready access to Imperial Soup. I'm not fond of the idea of using Super Heavies, but if that floats your boat a single Knight can be added easily to a mostly Guard force.

Careful with the Eldar recommendations. Particularly Craftworld.

Beyond soup, that book (from a heavily competitive side of things) is narrowed down to about 5-6 units. By itself, it's still an old book and doesn't have anywhere near the depth of say, Guard or Tyranids as a stand-alone book with a wide-spread of useful units.

ideally on paper, proably space marines

IG cheap infantry that give you board control and CP, amassing and cheap vehicles, good melee units. Can ally with the biggest faction in the game, that will always have good options to optimize your list. IG is the ultimate toolbox and are good in any metta and mission. There is reason they are dominating ITC and ETC.

Daemons; four different styles, lots of toys to work with, and with multiple detachment options you can have a combo of close combat, awesome shooting, big stompy monsters and sturdy objective holders. Three different groups get access to psykers, one is anti-psykers, and you don’t have to worry about painting the whole army in just one color scheme; you have four basic ones, and can branch out from there. Enjoy it!

Someone must have just started this game in the last few months.
They've been nerfed every cycle since their Codex came out. Name one army that's been nerfed *more*.

I know only how they are in 8th, the rest from stories. But if in 8th they were nerfed so many times, and still have one of the two highest win rates as an army, then it kind of tells us one of two things. Either GW sucks at writing nerfs for eldar, and the nerfs may as well not happen. Or the nerf od lower the performace of eldar armies, but it is already so high and much better the that of other armies, that even with them they out perform everyone. We don't play ITC here, but from what I understand a lot of their rules like terrain blocking LoS etc are made just to keep eldar from blowing and out assaulting other armies off the table.

As other editions goes I don't know much besides horror stories of mass jetbikes and eldar tanks taking shots from whole armies without losing a single wound. No idea if or how much of them are true, but as I heard some of them from people who play eldar themselfs, I assume at least a bit of it is true. Everyone I have ever asked told me that no army was ever like eldar, as in eldar never being a bottom army. They were always at least good, to me, if people I talked told the truth, this is a hallmark of a safe army to pick.

But if in 8th they were nerfed so many times, and still have one of the two highest win rates as an army, then it kind of tells us one of two things. Either GW sucks at writing nerfs for eldar, and the nerfs may as well not happen.

Mostly because the winning Eldar are Ynnari. Ynnari are strong because their core trait is strong and kinda breaks the current system as it allows a unit to technically take a double-turn. GW needs to take Ynnari back to the drawing board and redesign their traits. All of the nerfs Craftworlds have received this edition have been related to Ynnari armies.

Pure Craftworld is much more toned down and in competitive setting you won't see many mono Craftworld winning big. Now, don't get me wrong, I won't say it is a bad codex. It is a good codex, but limited to certain overperforming units that are carrying the rest.

a hallmark of a safe army to pick.

Yes and no. If you have a lot of money to spend then Eldar are safe as you can buy all the good units each edition. If you are low on funds then Eldar - especially if you are a meta-chaser - is an expensive army to pick.

In 6th everyone had to have ton of Wave Serpents and Dire Avengers with Wraithknights.
In 7th everyone had to have ton of jetbikes with Wraithknights.
In 8th everyone has to have Shining Spears and Dark Reapers(although Dark Reapers have gone that much up that you are usually best served with an Ynnari detachment for the Reapers).

So safe bet as long as you are always willing to buy new units to fill your forces. A long term Eldar player will usually have a large and varied force for every occasion and edition. It is why I have around 9000 points of Craftworlds. Love me some space elves.

Craftworlds are a commitment, a lifestyle.

Tau IMO, they have a great tactial trick for every phase. Just make sure you have XV25 for sneaky deployment and successive combat shenanigans.

Edit : Drukhari is well balanced too.

Yes and no. If you have a lot of money to spend then Eldar are safe as you can buy all the good units each edition. If you are low on funds then Eldar - especially if you are a meta-chaser - is an expensive army to pick.

Now I can't speak about other editions, but didn't like at least some unit from past stayed good? The second guy at LVO had jet bikes right? I hear they were good at some time, farseers seem to be good every edition. dark reapers seem to be super ancient models. So it is not like an eldar player buy a whole new army, or at least it seems so to me.

From what I have been told, again not played back then, so no idea how much of this is true, marines in edition before 8th were all about power armored dudes in drop pods and rhinos. There was also talk about armies with bikes. Those units are not used this edition. I don't know how and which marine army was "the best" before 8th ed, but I doubt the BA list consisted of 3x5 scouts and thunderhammer heroes, knights and IG. Non of the w40k armies seem cheap to me, although I do understand that some armies are pricier then other. I strongly doubt though that replacing an orc army or some other horde doesn't cost at least as much as eldar.

Karol wrote:

Yes and no. If you have a lot of money to spend then Eldar are safe as you can buy all the good units each edition. If you are low on funds then Eldar - especially if you are a meta-chaser - is an expensive army to pick.

Now I can't speak about other editions, but didn't like at least some unit from past stayed good? The second guy at LVO had jet bikes right? I hear they were good at some time, farseers seem to be good every edition. dark reapers seem to be super ancient models. So it is not like an eldar player buy a whole new army, or at least it seems so to me.

From what I have been told, again not played back then, so no idea how much of this is true, marines in edition before 8th were all about power armored dudes in drop pods and rhinos. There was also talk about armies with bikes. Those units are not used this edition. I don't know how and which marine army was "the best" before 8th ed, but I doubt the BA list consisted of 3x5 scouts and thunderhammer heroes, knights and IG. Non of the w40k armies seem cheap to me, although I do understand that some armies are pricier then other. I strongly doubt though that replacing an orc army or some other horde doesn't cost at least as much as eldar.

3e was the age of Dark Reaper-spam, 4e/5e mechanized Guardians/Dire Avengers were king, 6e the Falcon becomes utterly pointless in favour of Wave Serpent-spam, 7e goes to Bikes and Wraithknights, 8e Dark Reapers and Wave Serpents are back but you also need the airplanes and a Dark Eldar army.

There are units that have been good in multiple editions (Wave Serpents have been at least decent going all the way back to 4e at least) but the power units that are in vogue at any one point in time do fluctuate wildly.

Karol wrote:

Yes and no. If you have a lot of money to spend then Eldar are safe as you can buy all the good units each edition. If you are low on funds then Eldar - especially if you are a meta-chaser - is an expensive army to pick.

Now I can't speak about other editions, but didn't like at least some unit from past stayed good? The second guy at LVO had jet bikes right? I hear they were good at some time, farseers seem to be good every edition. dark reapers seem to be super ancient models. So it is not like an eldar player buy a whole new army, or at least it seems so to me.

From what I have been told, again not played back then, so no idea how much of this is true, marines in edition before 8th were all about power armored dudes in drop pods and rhinos. There was also talk about armies with bikes. Those units are not used this edition. I don't know how and which marine army was "the best" before 8th ed, but I doubt the BA list consisted of 3x5 scouts and thunderhammer heroes, knights and IG. Non of the w40k armies seem cheap to me, although I do understand that some armies are pricier then other. I strongly doubt though that replacing an orc army or some other horde doesn't cost at least as much as eldar.

Windrider jetbikes were good in the previous edition, shining spear jetbikes are good now. They're totally different kits, so its as if say Stormravens are good for a while, then Stormtalons are good and you say to someone "so, you already have all these space marine flyers, surely you don't need new models?"

Dark Reapers before this edition were terrible, at least for as long as I've played since the end of third.

The most consistently good units have been as you said Farseers, because usually there is at least a couple good psychic powers and this lets them be flexible, and the transports, Wave Serpents.

The biggest thing about eldar is their long and storied history of being the most complained-about faction in 40k, regardless of how actually strong they are. A tradition you have not failed to continue.

Tyranids. Seriously. They can build a tac list like no other. Probably the poster child so far for most well rounded and balanced dex internally and externally. Nothing stupid powerful. Nothing complete and utter crap. Everything has a place in the right list and the best lists diversify.

Bharring wrote:
Tac Marines, in theory, are the poster child of toolbox units. Outchop the shooty. Outshoot the choppy. Outstay the glasscannons. Outkill the anivls. In practice, they get none of those things. And suck.

CWE, in theory, are the poster child for a toolbox army filled with specialist units. Most of their units are good at one and only one thing. In practice, their stuff often winds up OP and good at more than one thing. They can make a great toolbox army, though. Probably the best at it. Best hammers and screwdrivers around. But their screwdrivers make worse hammers than most other factions', and their hammers make worse screwdrivers than other factions.

"[eldar] Also seem to be never nerfed by GW, so a safe army to play."
Someone must have just started this game in the last few months.
They've been nerfed every cycle since their Codex came out. Name one army that's been nerfed *more*.

That said, they're still top tier even with the nerfs.

BA are nerfed more. Maybe not by event count, but certainly by net effect of deep strike nerf and fly nerf. Even capt smash is fired from lists now.

If not playing then I've at least followed the game since early 3rd. The answer has always been eldar.

Aeldari or GSC are the most toolboxy army for me by a long shot. Both also contain the best stratagem in the game (Vect/A Plan).

Now I can't speak about other editions, but didn't like at least some unit from past stayed good? The second guy at LVO had jet bikes right? I hear they were good at some time, farseers seem to be good every edition. dark reapers seem to be super ancient models. So it is not like an eldar player buy a whole new army, or at least it seems so to me.

From what I have been told, again not played back then, so no idea how much of this is true, marines in edition before 8th were all about power armored dudes in drop pods and rhinos. There was also talk about armies with bikes. Those units are not used this edition. I don't know how and which marine army was "the best" before 8th ed, but I doubt the BA list consisted of 3x5 scouts and thunderhammer heroes, knights and IG. Non of the w40k armies seem cheap to me, although I do understand that some armies are pricier then other. I strongly doubt though that replacing an orc army or some other horde doesn't cost at least as much as eldar.

Jetbikes are working only because CA has lowered their point cost. The game is in a unique state now that we get CA to point adjust models so the chance of unusable models becoming useful is higher this time around. In earlier editions you just ended up not using a certain part of your codex if you were playing competitively for a whole edition. I have around 25 Striking Scorpions that have never seen a tournament table and only get a day in the sun when there are casual games to be found. Playing as Craftworld through several editions I have found several things to be true: Always buy more Craftworld units, magnetize as much as you can(magnetizing the turret on Wave Serpents has saved my wallet many times over), and accept that you are in it for the long run.

You have to remember that not everyone has been collecting Craftworlds since 2nd edition and not everyone is in the mindset of "I must have several units of each unit in the codex" or are collectors who want a huge range. So for those people they tend to have to buy a large portion of the army every time the meta changes. On top of that a lot of the units are in resin which adds another layer of annoyance.

Dark Reapers are indeed ancient which is why I probably own about 30+ of them from various editions(just love the unit's lore and look), but they haven't really been super-effective until 8th where they literally won people games. It's why in 8th you would actually see them out of stock for months because GW couldn't meet demand.

On the other hand I do recommend playing Craftworlds. It is a fun army that usually have a lot of tricks and are just very fun to paint, especially if you allow yourself to adhere to Aspect colors. Tasting the rainbow is real when you play Craftworlds.

PS: I do agree that this also applies to many other armies. However, of all the armies I have collected I have experienced this most profoundly with Craftworlds.

The game is in a unique state now that we get CA to point adjust models so the chance of unusable models becoming useful is higher this time around.

Again this seem to me like an argument in favour of eldar being a safe army. Even before CA eldar armies were strong enough to carry one or two less optimal units, with point drops in the CA, which they clearly did not need to be good, they now have more units they can use, and they were already one of the top armies like there. My expiriance with CA and my army is that, that it either gives inconsequential point drops or no point drops at all to units, and even GW agreed that GK do required to be fixed, they even said they would do it pre 2018 CA.

You have to remember that not everyone has been collecting Craftworlds since 2nd edition and not everyone is in the mindset of "I must have several units of each unit in the codex" or are collectors who want a huge range.

Ok. but lets say two people start in this edition. One picks up eldar, which units were killed for eldar in 8th ? not reapers, they are still good, spears are nice, farseers are great, the transport serpents are good. I maybe missing something, but from a non eldar player perspective, through all 8th ed eldar only got more units. Here is haywire harlies if you want to use something different. here is vect from DE. Here we drop the points on some units to make them more viable. Maybe not everything is perfect, and not every unit is castellan tier, but unless I missed something there was no purge of eldar units in CAs or FAQs.

On the other hand if someone picked an army like BA, bought in to it, now he is left with 15 scouts and some jetpack HQs he can use, everything else was nerfed hard.
If a GK player though he is going to run draigo and some Stormravens, well GW killed that idea. Same with razorback armies etc If someone bought in to a BT army with actual BT units, he is a sad sod right now. So even if someone plays for just one edition, IMO, eldar seem to be a much safter investment. There is no I spent 1000$ on an army and not it is junk tier. The space for growth is much larger too. Nothing that gets added to a GK army makes it work good, at best it makes people want to remove the GK stuff and replace it with new stuff. An eldar player can play around with new stuff, it doesn't dimnish or invalidted the stuff he already bought, just adds more options. I could be wrong though, the start of 8th I was not playing, so maybe eldar armies changed totaly and people did lose a lot of mondels.

GAC with Brood Brother allies.

Two Codecies, full of cheap troops, nasty HTH, tanks, psyker up the wazoo.