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the_scotsman wrote:
For me it's mostly a gameplay distinction. It's like if GW replaced Orks with an army that was essentially Necrons with an ork-themed skin. Primaris marines play like Necrons, Admech, or Tau more than they play like Marines or Guard.The only thing that after all these years got me to play some space marines was the appeal of "each of your guys can be a custom character with the wargear you want him to have and the little tweaks you put on each model are reflected on the tabletop."

Except that in a Tactical Squad, other than 3 models, everyone has the exact same load out, same for Assault Marines. VGV and SGV were able to mix and match more, but how often did you see that? Usually everyone in a SGV squad had the same weapons, or in VGV everyone to Weapon X and a SS.

For HQs thats absolutely true though, and my one gripe with Primaris HQs, I want them to be able to take what I want them to. Basic Squads though? What ever. Sure the Special Weapon would be nice, but eh.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

For HQs thats absolutely true though, and my one gripe with Primaris HQs, I want them to be able to take what I want them to. Basic Squads though? What ever.

Yeah, same. I'm fine with the Legion style squads, but the lack of character customisation is absolutely infuriating.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
For me it's mostly a gameplay distinction. It's like if GW replaced Orks with an army that was essentially Necrons with an ork-themed skin. Primaris marines play like Necrons, Admech, or Tau more than they play like Marines or Guard.The only thing that after all these years got me to play some space marines was the appeal of "each of your guys can be a custom character with the wargear you want him to have and the little tweaks you put on each model are reflected on the tabletop."

Except that in a Tactical Squad, other than 3 models, everyone has the exact same load out, same for Assault Marines. VGV and SGV were able to mix and match more, but how often did you see that? Usually everyone in a SGV squad had the same weapons, or in VGV everyone to Weapon X and a SS.

Except that I never said anything about what all marines are like, I said why I started collecting my loyalist marine army, which is deathwatch.

The reason I started collecting deathwatch was the appeal of every model being customizable. Which I do, and enjoy, because it basically allows my deathwatch to just be a collection of human characters I paint individually rather than faceless mooks.

If I were suddenly limited to faceless mooks all carrying the same gun, I wouldn't want to play them. It's just my own personal opinion on it and I don't require anyone to share it, but I do find it a little gakky that this army that came out so recently already seems to be obsolete and being replaced by what is essentially a totally different product.

Aren't DW primaris all armed with the same weapons though? Or do they intercessors and hellblasters have options to take more guns then loyalist marines?

the_scotsman wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
For me it's mostly a gameplay distinction. It's like if GW replaced Orks with an army that was essentially Necrons with an ork-themed skin. Primaris marines play like Necrons, Admech, or Tau more than they play like Marines or Guard.The only thing that after all these years got me to play some space marines was the appeal of "each of your guys can be a custom character with the wargear you want him to have and the little tweaks you put on each model are reflected on the tabletop."

Except that in a Tactical Squad, other than 3 models, everyone has the exact same load out, same for Assault Marines. VGV and SGV were able to mix and match more, but how often did you see that? Usually everyone in a SGV squad had the same weapons, or in VGV everyone to Weapon X and a SS.

Except that I never said anything about what all marines are like, I said why I started collecting my loyalist marine army, which is deathwatch.

The reason I started collecting deathwatch was the appeal of every model being customizable. Which I do, and enjoy, because it basically allows my deathwatch to just be a collection of human characters I paint individually rather than faceless mooks.

If I were suddenly limited to faceless mooks all carrying the same gun, I wouldn't want to play them. It's just my own personal opinion on it and I don't require anyone to share it, but I do find it a little gakky that this army that came out so recently already seems to be obsolete and being replaced by what is essentially a totally different product.

Perhaps when making an argument put out all of where you stand rather than just saying "Loyalist Marines." We arent mind readers. And your Deathwatch Vets clearly arent going anywhere in a hurry.


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 Crimson wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

For HQs thats absolutely true though, and my one gripe with Primaris HQs, I want them to be able to take what I want them to. Basic Squads though? What ever.

Yeah, same. I'm fine with the Legion style squads, but the lack of character customisation is absolutely infuriating.

Lack of Customization and charging us 35 bucks for a monopose, when they used to have the $35 USD Captain/Force Commander Box which was loaded with options.

And let's be honest here, you aren't taking these "highly customizable characters" unless you like losing. There's an optimal choice of weapons for these "customizable" squads and it's almost always spamming the best weapon on as many models as possible. So no, not much is lost with the move to primaris marines.

Granted, their fluff is sheer idiocy in every way, but if GW had just replaced the rules/kits and kept the old marine fluff it would have been fine.

 Peregrine wrote:
And let's be honest here, you aren't taking these "highly customizable characters" unless you like losing. There's an optimal choice of weapons for these "customizable" squads and it's almost always spamming the best weapon on as many models as possible. So no, not much is lost with the move to primaris marines.

Granted, their fluff is sheer idiocy in every way, but if GW had just replaced the rules/kits and kept the old marine fluff it would have been fine.

Amazingly, with a minimal amount of squad focus, I've been having a perfectly fine winrate with my deathwatch. Honestly, I think I made too many of them with storm shields, as I've only lost a game with them once.

Daily reminder to you that casual metas do actually exist in the world and are not just wild fantastical legends. There are plenty of people out there who just play what they've collected for 10+ years and don't slavishly update every model to meet every twist and turn in the competitive meta.

Also, you just have to look at current primaris' rules to see what's lost with the loss of customizable models.

If you take away the choice from players, who will optimize the rules on offer to make squads that work, you put the choice of how competitive a unit is directly into the hands of the genius games designers at GW.



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Karol wrote:
Aren't DW primaris all armed with the same weapons though? Or do they intercessors and hellblasters have options to take more guns then loyalist marines?

They are all armed with the same weapon. The only distinction is that you can take a deathwatch squad with 5 intercessors, 1 hellblaster, 1 aggressor, etc. But those models have their loadouts totally fixed like all primaris stuff.


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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
For me it's mostly a gameplay distinction. It's like if GW replaced Orks with an army that was essentially Necrons with an ork-themed skin. Primaris marines play like Necrons, Admech, or Tau more than they play like Marines or Guard.The only thing that after all these years got me to play some space marines was the appeal of "each of your guys can be a custom character with the wargear you want him to have and the little tweaks you put on each model are reflected on the tabletop."

Except that in a Tactical Squad, other than 3 models, everyone has the exact same load out, same for Assault Marines. VGV and SGV were able to mix and match more, but how often did you see that? Usually everyone in a SGV squad had the same weapons, or in VGV everyone to Weapon X and a SS.

Except that I never said anything about what all marines are like, I said why I started collecting my loyalist marine army, which is deathwatch.

The reason I started collecting deathwatch was the appeal of every model being customizable. Which I do, and enjoy, because it basically allows my deathwatch to just be a collection of human characters I paint individually rather than faceless mooks.

If I were suddenly limited to faceless mooks all carrying the same gun, I wouldn't want to play them. It's just my own personal opinion on it and I don't require anyone to share it, but I do find it a little gakky that this army that came out so recently already seems to be obsolete and being replaced by what is essentially a totally different product.

Perhaps when making an argument put out all of where you stand rather than just saying "Loyalist Marines." We arent mind readers. And your Deathwatch Vets clearly arent going anywhere in a hurry.

Again, an opinion, not an argument.

And deathwatch vets are "clearly" not going anywhere just like tactical squads are "clearly" not going anywhere. i.e. - gw has said many many times they are sticking around, they're just going to be separate. but equal!

Well, the problem with DW Primaris is that they're not an actual dedicated kits, merely vanilla Primaris Kits ported to DW. I would have certainly preferred had they made a completely new DW Primaris killteam kit for the DW, and that would have allowed having many/some of the options the non-primaris killteams have. But that was not what GW wanted to spend their design resources at this time, and it is understandable. They want to flesh out the basic Primaris line first, before diverging to the chapter specific stuff. This is the reason why GK don't have Primaris, as they would require a completely new kits. I'm sure that this too will happen eventually though. (I have for a while had a desire to convert some GK in Gravis armour, I think it would suit their aesthetic really well.)

Vilehydra wrote:
I'm salty, because by the looks of it everything from Vigilus and Shadow Spear Cannot be used on standard marines. They are supposedly in the same codex, yet there is an arbitrary divide that is there ONLY to sell models. There are going to be no formations that buff standard marines while some formations give others some very significant bonuses.

Why can't my Thousand Sons sorcerer heal a Black Legion Defiler? Compartmentalization is an important aspect of controlling rules balance. Just because you can't think of issues doesn't mean there aren't any.

I find Primaris boring, badly written and plain silly in parts. But really the reason I've dropped my SW is GW. Bad models, bad rules and fluff with far too much bad.

 Carnikang wrote:
So, question. I see this reasoning a lot, that the new Primaris aren't space Marines.

What does that mean? What is a Space Marine and why do they not qualify?

I ask as an outsider to the whole Power Armor family. You're all the same to me, aside from some bling, or with additional pointy bits.

By the logic of the 40k, new things in the IoM are seen with extreme suspicion and modifying existing things is often considered heretical as it breaks from tradition. Cawl and his creations should be condemned as extremely heretical as he not only made up new tech (suspect that primaris dread has tau tech on its guns ) but changing the marine process (a process designed by the god emperor himself) and claiming it to be superior to the established process is heresy beyond belief.

In old 40k all of this should of caused massive uproar and Inquisitors sending armies to put Cawl down for all this nonsense but GW let their new marketing team take the pen and write some horrible fluff to justify this filth without the whole *blamming* response that should be par for the course in the grim dark future of the 41st millennium. Hell the most mind blowing thing is that Gulliman didn't immediately condemn Cawl to execution for primarisiing all 20 of the original legion gene seeds (messing about with traitor gene seeds is bad enough but to also mess with the 2 legions that did something so horrible that they where wiped from Imperial Records). Basically the fluff of the setting is jacked up and honestly its all in the name of selling new products with damage to the fluff being an afterthought.

I love building and painting my Primaris. My only real complaint is that they are too new and rigid. Now when I say rigid I'm talking about characters. Legion loadouts are fine, ever since I've been on this site I've been told 40k rewards specialized forces anyway. The characters are generally lack luster, specifically the new Shadowspear ones (minus the librarian).

Sorry, my second complaint is that there's no dedicated anti tank or specialized melee unit, but that'll come with time. For now I'll build and paint what I have

 Vankraken wrote:
So, question. I see this reasoning a lot, that the new Primaris aren't space Marines.

By the logic of the 40k, new things in the IoM are seen with extreme suspicion and modifying existing things is often considered heretical as it breaks from tradition. Cawl and his creations should be condemned as extremely heretical as he not only made up new tech (suspect that primaris dread has tau tech on its guns ) but changing the marine process (a process designed by the god emperor himself) and claiming it to be superior to the established process is heresy beyond belief.

But Cawl is viewed as heretical by a large portion of the Adeptus Mechanicus because of his advancements.

Sure, the fluff is stupid, but I'm not gonna let that spoil my enjoyment of the excellent models. And it's not like improving the Space Marines is unheard of anyway, the Cursed Founding was a thing, it just worked better this time.

I think that part of the Primaris angst is that people are not sure on what they mean, and what GW's intentions are.

I think they need to re-release the Space Marine dex, and have it in sections like:

None compliant Chapters (completely old marines, the Imperium will support them as they have and life goes on) This is specific for people who don't want to have Primaris in their forces. And most likely if in the fluff, they won't be getting Primarizied. Still at 1K marines, and all that.

Compliant Chapters: Outfitted with Primaris and increased recruitment, they are increasing back to Legion sizes again, and reincorporating successor chapters, and have some older marines, and lots of Primaris marines. Play what you want. THis is the new normal, Ultramarines, and all the others here.

Primaris only Chapters: Here we go, what it says, all those extra marines, and the ones that G-man carved off to take care of specific problem areas. New Structure. Could be small, 1K - to very large- 200K.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think they really are aesthetically radically different than the old marines. The basic MKVII is also just a scifi power suit. The gothicness comes from extra details one can add.



I didn't go with 'knightly' with my Primaris, as I want them to be more 'feral' like the Space wolves, but a knightly look would be pretty easy to achieve too.

Those are nice looking models, man. White paint schemes are hard.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
The number of folks who dont seem to know that primaris torsos and legs are nearly fully compatible with baby-marine weapon, pauldron, and head bits is endlessly amusing.

I've converted enough to know.

It works the other way, too. This is a traditional marine with the Primaris "two-fingers-pointing" bit that I somehow got in a swap.

Reemule wrote:


None compliant Chapters (completely old marines, the Imperium will support them as they have and life goes on) This is specific for people who don't want to have Primaris in their forces. And most likely if in the fluff, they won't be getting Primarizied. Still at 1K marines, and all that.

But the Imperium has already said they wont support them if they dont accept them, and will declare them Traitoris. The Custodes are going out with the initial Deliveries and saying "Take them, it is the will of the Emperor. Do you question the Emperor's will?"

Theres nothing to stop them from using them as cannon fodder, but they will take them.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:For HQs thats absolutely true though, and my one gripe with Primaris HQs, I want them to be able to take what I want them to. Basic Squads though? What ever. Sure the Special Weapon would be nice, but eh.

Agreed. I'd like a bit more fun with my HQs. I don't mind the Legion style single loadout at all.

the_scotsman wrote:Daily reminder to you that casual metas do actually exist in the world and are not just wild fantastical legends. There are plenty of people out there who just play what they've collected for 10+ years and don't slavishly update every model to meet every twist and turn in the competitive meta.

Hear hear.

And deathwatch vets are "clearly" not going anywhere just like tactical squads are "clearly" not going anywhere. i.e. - gw has said many many times they are sticking around, they're just going to be separate. but equal!

Well, they're still around. GW hasn't gone back on that yet. Maybe they will, in the future, but for now, we've got no reason to think they won't any time soon.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Reemule wrote:


None compliant Chapters (completely old marines, the Imperium will support them as they have and life goes on) This is specific for people who don't want to have Primaris in their forces. And most likely if in the fluff, they won't be getting Primarizied. Still at 1K marines, and all that.

But the Imperium has already said they wont support them if they dont accept them, and will declare them Traitoris. The Custodes are going out with the initial Deliveries and saying "Take them, it is the will of the Emperor. Do you question the Emperor's will?"

Theres nothing to stop them from using them as cannon fodder, but they will take them.

Re-write it. All those chapters without a history they know? Here is the path forward.

I like the new models. I think that the Primaris proportions, size and their having two attacks and two wounds better represent what Space Marines should have always been.

That said, I also like a lot of the old units for nostalgia/fluff reasons. I don't want them to get rid of Land Raiders, Assault Marines, Rhinos, Terminators, etc. I'd rather they just re-made all those units in the new Primaris style.

I doubt that the old units will be gotten rid of anytime soon, and I think they still look decent when they are their own stand-alone are my (as in not a mixed Primaris and old Marine force). I just don't like that they have a worse statline and I worry that they'll get so little rules support going forward that they'll be unplayable.

I don't mind the introduction of new units. I think that it's a good thing. There are two things that bother me a bit about the new Primaris release:
1. They seem to be bolting tons of abilities and weapons onto many of the vehicles and units. They are out-Orking the Orks in some ways.
2. The new stuff, rather than being different to the old stuff is often just the same thing but way better. I don't like that kind of creep.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
II doubt that the old units will be gotten rid of anytime soon, and I think they still look decent when they are their own stand-alone are my (as in not a mixed Primaris and old Marine force). I just don't like that they have a worse statline and I worry that they'll get so little rules support going forward that they'll be unplayable.

Well right now that rules support is still there - CA 2018 points adjustments less than 3 months ago and since then the beta bolters rules. GW even included non-Primaris units in their suggested standalone army list for the latest Primaris units from Shadowspear.

Can we make this a pinned topic? I think based on the title it's a good idea. Would stop most people from creating topics.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I'm salty, because by the looks of it everything from Vigilus and Shadow Spear Cannot be used on standard marines. They are supposedly in the same codex, yet there is an arbitrary divide that is there ONLY to sell models. There are going to be no formations that buff standard marines while some formations give others some very significant bonuses.

Why can't my Thousand Sons sorcerer heal a Black Legion Defiler? Compartmentalization is an important aspect of controlling rules balance. Just because you can't think of issues doesn't mean there aren't any.

he's also wrong. outside of the Indomatus crusaders and crimson fist liberator force the formation, every formation can take old units.

My main gripe with Primaris?

Mine is that i wish they would give Primaris-specific stuff to BT! I'd love a Primaris Emperors Champion and Sword Brethren.

I also really dislike the Helmets. I played around with some old BT parts and a MKIII Helmet on one of the Conquest Marines and I think the MKIII helmet gives them such a better look. Really gives them a Space-Knights-Templar feel.

That and I wish Primaris could have Drop Pods. i really love the idea of Drop pod assaults so seeing them on the table, played more like PA-Tau, just looks cheap and nasty imo.

100 percent agree. You should write games workshop and complain.

Maybe even make a BBB complaint about it so they take it seriously. Our armies are being phased out were clearly being lied to as consumers. A GW rep told me my armhy isn't invalidated.

Make a BBB complaint. Demand your money back.

Gonna do this myself 3000$ down the drain.

Vilehydra wrote:
I'm salty, because by the looks of it everything from Vigilus and Shadow Spear Cannot be used on standard marines. They are supposedly in the same codex, yet there is an arbitrary divide that is there ONLY to sell models. There are going to be no formations that buff standard marines while some formations give others some very significant bonuses.

Rhinos losing fire points for no reason, .

The reason is that vehicles are much tougher now.

Alcibiades wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I'm salty, because by the looks of it everything from Vigilus and Shadow Spear Cannot be used on standard marines. They are supposedly in the same codex, yet there is an arbitrary divide that is there ONLY to sell models. There are going to be no formations that buff standard marines while some formations give others some very significant bonuses.

Rhinos losing fire points for no reason, .

The reason is that vehicles are much tougher now.

Transports (like the Rhino) cost a hell of a lot more and the transport rules are less beneficial for turn 1 move and unload units (it's basically 3 less inches of movement). Dedicated transports with next to no firepower absolutely got worse.

Alcibiades wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
I'm salty, because by the looks of it everything from Vigilus and Shadow Spear Cannot be used on standard marines. They are supposedly in the same codex, yet there is an arbitrary divide that is there ONLY to sell models. There are going to be no formations that buff standard marines while some formations give others some very significant bonuses.

Rhinos losing fire points for no reason, .

The reason is that vehicles are much tougher now.

If someone wants to spend that many points to cover a squad that has two Lascannons or Grav Cannons, why shouldn't they? Dark Eldar and Harlequins were able to keep their ability to fire, but Marines and Necrons lost that for no good reason.

Heck I think even Guard lost that too. They should be just as upset.

BrianDavion wrote:
he's also wrong. outside of the Indomatus crusaders and crimson fist liberator force the formation, every formation can take old units.

Partially right. I happen to run Salamanders, which means I can only run the Indomitus Crusaders. Should've clarified that point earlier. It feels a bit ridiculous though. Skimming through a few of the other specialist detachments from other factions I didn't see any non-marine detachments limited by their 'CT' (could've missed it though)

Alcibiades wrote:
The reason is that vehicles are much tougher now.

So are trucks(?), raiders, and harlequin transports (whatever they where called). Yet they got to keep the full open-top rule where everyone inside can fire out with squads that can do a lot more damage at further range. So why can't I fire two special weapons out of my rhino?

Daedalus81 wrote:
Why can't my Thousand Sons sorcerer heal a Black Legion Defiler? Compartmentalization is an important aspect of controlling rules balance. Just because you can't think of issues doesn't mean there aren't any.

I agree that compartmentalization is a critical part of balance, 7th ed didn't have enough compartmentalization and it made the game extremely unbalanced. But I would like to point out that this is not a matter of <Thousands sons> and <Legion> keywords as you suggested. Those are two separate codices that can ally together. An equivalent to that point would be that I can't use might of heroes on a knight or Mephistion, which I agree is a good thing. The problem is that now I literally can't use <Chapter Tactic> WLTs or a <Chapter Tactic> Psychic power on units that are supposed to be from the same army, but that restriction only goes one way. I can use all the standard WLTs and Psychic power on <Phobos> models, but Obscurement (the only defensive power from the book IIRC) and WLTs from the book may only be used on <Phobos> models. Again I'm unaware of any other faction that has this sort of silly restriction. (Once again, could be wrong here. Maybe DE have something similar with Cults and Covens). It seems like a marketing ploy to sell more models, but I am definitely biased in this regard.

Standard Marines got a lot of tools taken from them at the start of the edition, and it doesn't look like they're ever going to get them back. That's where my comes from.
I don't like the way Primaris play, homogeneous squads that are specialized at doing one thing. But hey I'm gonna make Tacs work till they're out of the codex.

 Peregrine wrote:
And let's be honest here, you aren't taking these "highly customizable characters" unless you like losing. There's an optimal choice of weapons for these "customizable" squads and it's almost always spamming the best weapon on as many models as possible. So no, not much is lost with the move to primaris marines.

Granted, their fluff is sheer idiocy in every way, but if GW had just replaced the rules/kits and kept the old marine fluff it would have been fine.

Yes many players, myself included did take those less than bleeding edge best options for a variety of reasons. I don't get how you treat everyone's local scene as if players only take whats good and never considering anything else.