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Very true, but you could always just leave behind the DV models or scratch off their insignia. They will sell easily if you don't too.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Very true, but you could always just leave behind the DV models or scratch off their insignia. They will sell easily if you don't too.

No because then my Black Templars (which have hardsculpted insignias too) will outnumber the vanilla/ DA marines and then I'll feel like I'll have to make Phobos Black Templars and that feels kind of icky.

LoftyS wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

LoftyS wrote:
I'm the opposite, I've always had some SM in a cupboard never getting painted because I view Space Marines of most chapters to be cartoons with toddler strategies, but now Shadowspear has with its Phobos marines thrown me into a Space Marine painting frenzy. I am all about the tacticool, it's why Tau Stealth suits and the old Storm Troopers and Kasrkin and even Eldar Warp Spiders are/ were some of my favourite units and the reason I keep coming back. Now they've ruined the Storm Troopers with idiot-looking Scions but Phobos is newfound success on the Imperium's side in my book.

Unfortunately I have to make my marines largely Dark Angels (second cartooniest chapter of all after Wolves) because a big chunk of my stuff is from Dark Vengeance, but hey. I've got a Black Templars detachment to balance them out.

the dark angels are only cartoonyif you go full on the bling, a line company could be pretty basic in apperance

Visually sure, but there's always the emo tween backstory to them lurking in the background. It's one of those chapters where the grimderp was painted on extra thick.

You can paint them however you want. I have dark vengence marines mixed in with assault on blackreach marines alongside blood angel tac marines and space wolves. Most people never even ask about it, but those who do my personal fluff for the chapter is multiple small forces sent off to get compliance of a small system of planets, This mix of ships being the closest and expected easy compliance of the system durring the heresey. they remained cut off and only recently made contact with the imperium again. all the chapters at this point while they keep thier original iconography to correspond to geneseed which was kept fairly pure, they wear the same blue/green/white armor (snow planets mostly) to symbolize thier unity. Prospects to join their ranks are tested and assigned to the training for which they are most genetically compatible.

boom I have avoided emo dark angels, and get to use whatever models I like.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Is the same as the "chaos" players that dont actually want to play chaos but heresy era marines.

Wait, whats your beef with this one? The heresy era miniatures are beautiful and chapters like Iron Warriors and Night Lords hate warp mutations and remove them, and especially in the case of Iron Warriors the aesthetic of the heresy era mini's is just perfect. Renegade bands in this vein as well seem like a perfectly fine choice.

Man, I keep seeing this claim and it still sounds super fake. Maybe the Night Lords, sure, whatever, but the Iron Warriors are the guys who are famous for the use of Obliterators. That's about as much chaos mutation as you can possibly get.

They have obliterator cults. They're still known for cutting off warp mutations and replacing them with metal as well as wearing HH armour and being less spikey than other marines.

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Thing is that some of these Horus Heresy veterans are like, a few months removed from the Horus Heresy still.

Time is weird in the warp.

...Which you already addressed. Shouldn't be so quick to post when I just woke up derp

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Which in turn keeps them as a run of the mill MEQ army. They should be a small count army outside Cultists, which is why the Chaos Marine entry needs to be removed and replaced entirely with Chosen, with everyone having Vet stats at minimum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Which in turn keeps them as a run of the mill MEQ army. They should be a small count army outside Cultists, which is why the Chaos Marine entry needs to be removed and replaced entirely with Chosen, with everyone having Vet stats at minimum.

...Which everyone will be super duper in favor of until the meta shifts and veteran units suck again. Then everyone will go "why do we have to pay all these extra points for worthless stats when loyalists can just get basic marine bodies so cheap!!?!?"

The deletion of options within codexes just leads to you not having that option when a meta shift would have made them good. Who would give a flying feth about losing storm bolters as special weapon options in 5-7th edition? Now it gets brought up as some massive "sister of battle privilege" that they have access to them.

Remember when Chaos players whined and whined about not having the grav weapons despite them being retconned in as being around since the heresy in 7th?

If you listen closely, you can hear the crickets where those complaints used to be now that there is a new CSM kit and there's still no grav weapons.

Bet you a shiny nickel if the edition shifts and grav is the best special again, "where's my grav" and "the bits are compatible!" will be once again in vogue.

Kall3m0n wrote:
I only started in 5th ed, but I've always looked in WDs before that and were a bit in aw of all the miniatures and landscapes/battlefields, so "my" marines are the small ones. I like their OTT stuff and their older cleaner look. I love the robed minis, and the Honour Guards' wingfaces iss my absolute favourite helmet of the bunch. I see the Primaris as kinda not really Marines. They're their own separate entity to me. I do think they look really good, but they aren't really Space Marines.They look like a really good interpretation of SM. And that's fine.
My problem with them (and most new GW stuff) is that they're basically monopose. I started DG when they were new, and the models look great, but again -monopose. In that sense the old minis are vastly superior. I'm not slouch when it comes to a saw, scalpel and GS, but I feel something as basic as a Marine shouldn't require it. Even heads have tabs on them, damn it. WHY?!

There's varying degrees of mono-pose. Intercessors have nubs for the arm mounts but they're really easy to trim off with the right clippers. Can't do much with the legs, but at least you can vary up the arm and head positions. The contents of the Shadow Spear box have zero wiggle room without performing major surgery. Most of them have the shoulder pads molded into the front or back of the torso and the hands/arms divided in different places for each model. You'd have to assemble them most of the way and then cut the arms off to switch the poses at all.

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Which in turn keeps them as a run of the mill MEQ army. They should be a small count army outside Cultists, which is why the Chaos Marine entry needs to be removed and replaced entirely with Chosen, with everyone having Vet stats at minimum.

...Which everyone will be super duper in favor of until the meta shifts and veteran units suck again. Then everyone will go "why do we have to pay all these extra points for worthless stats when loyalists can just get basic marine bodies so cheap!!?!?"

The deletion of options within codexes just leads to you not having that option when a meta shift would have made them good. Who would give a flying feth about losing storm bolters as special weapon options in 5-7th edition? Now it gets brought up as some massive "sister of battle privilege" that they have access to them.

Remember when Chaos players whined and whined about not having the grav weapons despite them being retconned in as being around since the heresy in 7th?

If you listen closely, you can hear the crickets where those complaints used to be now that there is a new CSM kit and there's still no grav weapons.

Bet you a shiny nickel if the edition shifts and grav is the best special again, "where's my grav" and "the bits are compatible!" will be once again in vogue.

Chaos Players would not have cared about not having access to Grav weaponry outside Renegades (which as you know I'm in favor of making the main Marine codex handle), and the fact Grav Cannons were broken. Nobody complained about Grav Guns, even on Bikers (which was a particularly strong option).

Also that's not deleting an option. They're both Marine models. It's about proper representation of Legions, the supposed Vets of the Long War that are supposed to be dangerous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Which in turn keeps them as a run of the mill MEQ army. They should be a small count army outside Cultists, which is why the Chaos Marine entry needs to be removed and replaced entirely with Chosen, with everyone having Vet stats at minimum.

Nahh. Chaos Marines aren't all going to suddenly achieve veteran status. There are those individuals who will progress with the lack of structure, and other individuals that will stagnate or flounder. The basic CSM entry should stay.

The Chosen entry should improve though. I don't like the limitation on specials for example. They should really be the mirror of Sternguard/Vanguard in terms of equipment options, I don't know why they're capped as they are.

This is 40k.

There is no reason a Marine who served in the Great Crusade must be a Vet by now. In 40k, that could have been only a few days ago for him.

I should point out that I'm not being sarcastic - almost every Marine that was alive during the Great Crusade has not experienced 10k years of time since then. Not even Bobby G has.

Bharring wrote:
This is 40k.

There is no reason a Marine who served in the Great Crusade must be a Vet by now. In 40k, that could have been only a few days ago for him.

I should point out that I'm not being sarcastic - almost every Marine that was alive during the Great Crusade has not experienced 10k years of time since then. Not even Bobby G has.

That's at minimum a few hundred years though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

When CSM players say they want to play legions, it isn't about using Heresy minis. Its about having more of a direct link to the fact that these are Heresy Era Veterans. Look at the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons... those armies depart greatly from their Heresy Era form and equipment and yet there are hints of it throughout the army. Sell your soul for power, fight wars for 10,000 years, and some how you're less of a Veteran than the freshly indoctrinated tactical Marine? -This is what the CSM codex teaches us. The statistical power difference between tactical squads and CSM squads means in general you need 15 CSM to equal a 10 model tactical squad over the course of a whole game. GW just keeps making them cheaper, and cultists pricier, but CSM squads need to be almost as cheap as Sisters of Battle to begin to be viable... again this is how out of whack basic CSM are.

The idea that there are veterans of the Horus Heresy still running around and fighting as regular squaddies is farcical. Ten thousand years is more than twice the total of recorded human history to date. Each and every one of the Traitor Legions has no doubt had over 100% casualties countless times over ten millennium.

There may well still be some Horus Heresy veterans running around, but I would expect them to be Daemon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers, maybe some Helbrutes or Spawn. I will not accept that guys with bolters sitting on objectives have been doing so since the Legions originally broke with the Imperium. Unless you're talking about weird time-warp shenanigans keeping them in stasis, but that is not an effective argument for Chaos Marines being any more elite or veteran than their loyalist counterparts.

Which in turn keeps them as a run of the mill MEQ army. They should be a small count army outside Cultists, which is why the Chaos Marine entry needs to be removed and replaced entirely with Chosen, with everyone having Vet stats at minimum.

Nahh. Chaos Marines aren't all going to suddenly achieve veteran status. There are those individuals who will progress with the lack of structure, and other individuals that will stagnate or flounder. The basic CSM entry should stay.

The Chosen entry should improve though. I don't like the limitation on specials for example. They should really be the mirror of Sternguard/Vanguard in terms of equipment options, I don't know why they're capped as they are.

Those floundering are probably already dead, and I made my justification via that Renegades should be covered in the regular Marine codex via switching of keywords, and that can take care of plausible new recruits as well.

"That's at minimum a few hundred years though."
Source? Because:

1) A *few* hundred years is quite old for most Marines

2) Why would they be more likely to pop out of whatever warp shenanigans they were in from year 30,000 to year 39,799, but never ever pop out between 39,800 and "now"?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those floundering are probably already dead, and I made my justification via that Renegades should be covered in the regular Marine codex via switching of keywords, and that can take care of plausible new recruits as well.

That would mean that recruitment chaos marines aren't part of the chaos book.

A stagnant or floundering chaos marine is not necessarily a dead one. The champions and lords still need bodies to perform tasks and even 'basic' chaos marines will be more useful than cultists.

I get the reasoning behind a keyword swap, but it just seems unnecessary. We already have CSMs of various tiers in the Chaos book, basic marines, Chosen, and true devotees like Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines etc. who already have their special status and rules. It'd be nice if the basic CSMs got both Chainswords and bolters, but otherwise they seem fine.

"Those floundering are probably already dead, and I made my justification via that Renegades should be covered in the regular Marine codex via switching of keywords, and that can take care of plausible new recruits as well."
Unless, of course, a faction might have new recruits *and* veterans.

Or a Warband might include new recruits and a Sorcerer. Or even a Demon.

The basic CSM squad should be a carbon copy of the base Loyalist squad, plus the Chaos trappings.

Bharring wrote:
"That's at minimum a few hundred years though."
Source? Because:

1) A *few* hundred years is quite old for most Marines

2) Why would they be more likely to pop out of whatever warp shenanigans they were in from year 30,000 to year 39,799, but never ever pop out between 39,800 and "now"?

Time is finicky in the Warp, so who knows?

However, it IS a fact that these original Vets are gonna be battle hardened. The 4th edition codex, as loathed as it was, even had at minimum a way to give them two attacks as they're more combat able compared to Loyalist Scum, and the codex before that has ways to give them skills on top of that.

Not a single bit of that is present now. The basic Chaos Marine entry has been a bad idea since its 6th edition incarnation. It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"Those floundering are probably already dead, and I made my justification via that Renegades should be covered in the regular Marine codex via switching of keywords, and that can take care of plausible new recruits as well."
Unless, of course, a faction might have new recruits *and* veterans.

Or a Warband might include new recruits and a Sorcerer. Or even a Demon.

The basic CSM squad should be a carbon copy of the base Loyalist squad, plus the Chaos trappings.

A new warband is not going to be accepted to the point that they're fighting the same style as the Legions. MAYBE as allies at that, which is why I propose Renegades being covered in the base Vanilla codex with consolidated Angels, as both have Traitorous elements (and would be a way to have Fallen be slightly more organized, but I hadn't thought that part out yet).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those floundering are probably already dead, and I made my justification via that Renegades should be covered in the regular Marine codex via switching of keywords, and that can take care of plausible new recruits as well.

That would mean that recruitment chaos marines aren't part of the chaos book.

A stagnant or floundering chaos marine is not necessarily a dead one. The champions and lords still need bodies to perform tasks and even 'basic' chaos marines will be more useful than cultists.

I get the reasoning behind a keyword swap, but it just seems unnecessary. We already have CSMs of various tiers in the Chaos book, basic marines, Chosen, and true devotees like Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines etc. who already have their special status and rules. It'd be nice if the basic CSMs got both Chainswords and bolters, but otherwise they seem fine.

Except those Cult elements would be more like hired guns, ala the ally system that is already in place. As is, you could make Red Corsairs all Plague Marines + Huron in a Vanguard detachment, and they run fast and charge.

Does that really make sense as is?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel.

What Elite Legion feel? That is not the default stance of the CSMs. They have the same "elite-ness" of Tac marines, which have that "Elite Chapter feel". Chaos marines are not simply "better marines". They're essentially just 'evil' marines. I think you're headcannoning a bit here. Imo they're just in the process of breaking with the codex and more lacking in discipline.

. . .
And their wargear is that which they can maintain, steal, and be supplied ammunition for, aka, "requisition" from Guardsmen. So Lascannons, Autocannons, etc. Plasma Cannons and Grav arent as plentiful and reliable in universe.

"A new warband is not going to be accepted to the point that they're fighting the same style as the Legions. MAYBE as allies at that, which is why I propose Renegades being covered in the base Vanilla codex with consolidated Angels, as both have Traitorous elements (and would be a way to have Fallen be slightly more organized, but I hadn't thought that part out yet)."
Because no army ever has added recruits after actually fighting in battle?

Do you really think most Warbands never recruit anyone new ever again, once they see combat? Why? What?

I get that Renegades typically won't have demons or even many (if any) visible mutations, if they're just rebelling politically.

But apostates, traitors, and soforth - you'd have "newly turned" Marines, same as loyalists, fighting alongside demons, possessed, Demon Engines, and Sorcerers.

"The basic Chaos Marine entry has been a bad idea since its 6th edition incarnation. It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel."
And the Guardsman entry doesn't capture super-elite-Assassin's feel - because that's not what it is.

The elite legions are Chosen, Cult Troops and so forth. Yes, there's a technical oddity in that there are no Elite Legion troops, currently (which should be fixed, although you can play without them like pure-Wriath Spirit Hosts, pure-bike Windriders, pure-ASM Assault Companies, or pure-bike Marines). Marks help with that, and two legions have special dexes, but providing an elite Vet Troop option probably should happen.

"Except those Cult elements would be more like hired guns, ala the ally system that is already in place. As is, you could make Red Corsairs all Plague Marines + Huron in a Vanguard detachment, and they run fast and charge."
Depends on the Legion/Warband. In many cases, the Cults can be Aspirants, who wish to become a Chaos Marine. Those are members, not allies.

I get that you want to change the CSM Dex to be Legions Only, but that's not what it is. I'd be on board with making it more amenable to Legions, but not on board with dropping non-Legion Warbands from the game (or gutting their options, such as forcing them to use the Vanilla dex). Legions aren't the only CSM Warbands out there.

"Does that really make sense as is?"
Much more than "No marine after Y30K is a True Chaos Marine!"

(On a related note, I'd like it if they added the option for many of the IoM factions to swap their 'Imperium' keyword with 'Renegade' or 'Chaos'. Some factions certainly shouldn't be able to, and some options in some other specific units shouldn't be able to, of course.

Bonus points if Orkz could take looted Vehicles more readily, even if points-inefficient.

More bonus points for basic Guardsmen units taking 'Tau' to be Gue'Seva.

Corsairs (and maybe Kroot) taking 'Imperium', 'Tau', or 'Ork' to be Mercenaries.

Now I'm just dreaming.)

(PS - Yes, I did remember my parentheses. So you can't tell me my arguments are invalid!)

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel.

What Elite Legion feel? That is not the default stance of the CSMs. They have the same "elite-ness" of Tac marines, which have that "Elite Chapter feel". Chaos marines are not simply "better marines". They're essentially just 'evil' marines. I think you're headcannoning a bit here. Imo they're just in the process of breaking with the codex and more lacking in discipline.

. . .
And their wargear is that which they can maintain, steal, and be supplied ammunition for, aka, "requisition" from Guardsmen. So Lascannons, Autocannons, etc. Plasma Cannons and Grav arent as plentiful and reliable in universe.

Did you literally forget that they used to be able to get Vet skills? They were always more elite and GW dumbed the unit entry down ever since. You really can't argue otherwise.

"Did you literally forget that they used to be able to get Vet skills? They were always more elite and GW dumbed the unit entry down ever since. You really can't argue otherwise."
Farseers used to be able to take ML4. Now they're always ML2. Does that mean GW nerfed them? Does that mean there's no argument that they shouldn't be able to cast ML4 powers?

Further, the above argument is that *not all* Chaos Marines are vets. Not that *all* Chaos Marines are *not* vets. Those are very different things.

You can still take the Vet upgrade on Chaos Marines. By taking Chosen.

Bharring wrote:
"A new warband is not going to be accepted to the point that they're fighting the same style as the Legions. MAYBE as allies at that, which is why I propose Renegades being covered in the base Vanilla codex with consolidated Angels, as both have Traitorous elements (and would be a way to have Fallen be slightly more organized, but I hadn't thought that part out yet)."
Because no army ever has added recruits after actually fighting in battle?

Do you really think most Warbands never recruit anyone new ever again, once they see combat? Why? What?

I get that Renegades typically won't have demons or even many (if any) visible mutations, if they're just rebelling politically.

But apostates, traitors, and soforth - you'd have "newly turned" Marines, same as loyalists, fighting alongside demons, possessed, Demon Engines, and Sorcerers.

"The basic Chaos Marine entry has been a bad idea since its 6th edition incarnation. It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel."
And the Guardsman entry doesn't capture super-elite-Assassin's feel - because that's not what it is.

The elite legions are Chosen, Cult Troops and so forth. Yes, there's a technical oddity in that there are no Elite Legion troops, currently (which should be fixed, although you can play without them like pure-Wriath Spirit Hosts, pure-bike Windriders, pure-ASM Assault Companies, or pure-bike Marines). Marks help with that, and two legions have special dexes, but providing an elite Vet Troop option probably should happen.

"Except those Cult elements would be more like hired guns, ala the ally system that is already in place. As is, you could make Red Corsairs all Plague Marines + Huron in a Vanguard detachment, and they run fast and charge."
Depends on the Legion/Warband. In many cases, the Cults can be Aspirants, who wish to become a Chaos Marine. Those are members, not allies.

I get that you want to change the CSM Dex to be Legions Only, but that's not what it is. I'd be on board with making it more amenable to Legions, but not on board with dropping non-Legion Warbands from the game (or gutting their options, such as forcing them to use the Vanilla dex). Legions aren't the only CSM Warbands out there.

"Does that really make sense as is?"
Much more than "No marine after Y30K is a True Chaos Marine!"

(On a related note, I'd like it if they added the option for many of the IoM factions to swap their 'Imperium' keyword with 'Renegade' or 'Chaos'. Some factions certainly shouldn't be able to, and some options in some other specific units shouldn't be able to, of course.

Bonus points if Orkz could take looted Vehicles more readily, even if points-inefficient.

More bonus points for basic Guardsmen units taking 'Tau' to be Gue'Seva.

Corsairs (and maybe Kroot) taking 'Imperium', 'Tau', or 'Ork' to be Mercenaries.

Now I'm just dreaming.)

(PS - Yes, I did remember my parentheses. So you can't tell me my arguments are invalid!)

They're fighting in battle as meatshields. Simple as that.

Any established Daemon Engines aren't something a Renegade Warband should have a great number of without the need of an ally landing them (which can be justified via the current ally system). As is, Crimson Slaughter can run a detachment of ×3 of each Daemon Engine but no Drop Pods, which makes no sense. Rubric Marines can be ran as Red Corsairs, which also makes no sense.
I'm not saying they can't be marked, but they're not going to have significant bonuses like the actual Cult Legions, which would already be representing warbands coming from there, like The Purge represented by Death Guard.

You purposely missed the point with the Assassins, so good job.

The non-Legion Warbands are either going to be fighting exactly like Codex Marines, because they're more organized in that fashion. They aren't losing options that make no sense. They're gaining options that make sense. There's not a reason Red Corsairs gain Autocannons with their Terminators all the sudden, so does it matter they lose the option they shouldn't have had in the first place?

And I'm saying that no Marine after 30k is really part of the Legion. So there shouldn't be options that are that low end.

Also it would make sense to do the same for the Imperial Guard codex.

"They're fighting in battle as meatshields. Simple as that."
So was Leonidas. Was he not a Spartan?

Bharring wrote:
"Did you literally forget that they used to be able to get Vet skills? They were always more elite and GW dumbed the unit entry down ever since. You really can't argue otherwise."
Farseers used to be able to take ML4. Now they're always ML2. Does that mean GW nerfed them? Does that mean there's no argument that they shouldn't be able to cast ML4 powers?

Further, the above argument is that *not all* Chaos Marines are vets. Not that *all* Chaos Marines are *not* vets. Those are very different things.

You can still take the Vet upgrade on Chaos Marines. By taking Chosen.

You can make the argument for Farseers being able to pick and use more powers, yes. Your point?

"Any established Daemon Engines aren't something a Renegade Warband [...]"
Wait, so a traitor warband that's been dealing with demons for a few thousand years isn't a renegade? Or are you saying that, after fighting wars over the course of a few thousand years, the Warband hasn't recruited a single member in the past few centuries and never would?

You're completely missing two things:
1) Not every renegade warband just recently stopped following the Emperor
2) Not every Warband that's actually fought a battle never again recruits a single marine.

(Thousand Son rubrics are the only example I can think of that never recruit - there are new rubrics, but I don't think they're Thousand Sons.)

*Most* warbands will recruit. New Chaos Marines do actually happen in established Warbands.

"You purposely missed the point with the Assassins, so good job."
Fine, I'll spell it out. Your point is that a unit entry that represents non-VOTLW Chaos Marines doesn't represent VOTLW Chaos Marines. That's a feature, not a bug. Now, I'd agree that there should be a better way to do a pure-VOTLW warband. But you're demanding that non-VOTLW Chaos Marines be dropped from the CSM codex.

"The non-Legion Warbands are either going to be fighting exactly like Codex Marines, because they're more organized in that fashion."
Even the ones that aren't? Like, if there's some Khorne cult Warband, are they still adhering to the Codex Astartes? Do they still keep all their Devastator squads intact? There are non-Legion Warbands that do, sure. But not all non-Legion Warbands are Loyalist-wannabes.

"There's not a reason Red Corsairs gain Autocannons with their Terminators all the sudden, so does it matter they lose the option they shouldn't have had in the first place? "
There certainly *should* be rules support for newly-renegaded chapters. And that can be done with the Loyalist codex. But does it make sense that a Tzeenchian cult warband that defected a few thousand years ago can't have a Sorcerer because they didn't join the Cool Kids during the Heresy? Does it make sense that Fabius Bile's newest batch of Marines must either have hundreds of years of experience as a Marine as soon as they're created, or not be allowed to touch half the gear of their Warband?

"And I'm saying that no Marine after 30k is really part of the Legion. So there shouldn't be options that are that low end. "
You keep conflating Codex:CSM with Codex:Legion. That's not what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You can make the argument for Farseers being able to pick and use more powers, yes. Your point?"
And CSM used to be able to be non-Vet.

There's a difference between Traitor Marines and Renegade Marines.

Only if you're a heretic!

More seriously, there are "Renegades" that haven't (knowingly, at least) thrown in with Chaos - those can be represented by the Vanilla dex.

But there's also "Traitor" renegades - Marines who *have* fallen in with Chaos, despite not being veterans of the Heresy.

There's also Warbands that include both Vets and non-Vets.

Not all Marines who consort with Chaos are Veterans of the Long War.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't capture the Elite Legion feel.

What Elite Legion feel? That is not the default stance of the CSMs. They have the same "elite-ness" of Tac marines, which have that "Elite Chapter feel". Chaos marines are not simply "better marines". They're essentially just 'evil' marines. I think you're headcannoning a bit here. Imo they're just in the process of breaking with the codex and more lacking in discipline.

. . .
And their wargear is that which they can maintain, steal, and be supplied ammunition for, aka, "requisition" from Guardsmen. So Lascannons, Autocannons, etc. Plasma Cannons and Grav arent as plentiful and reliable in universe.

Did you literally forget that they used to be able to get Vet skills? They were always more elite and GW dumbed the unit entry down ever since. You really can't argue otherwise.

A: CSMs had the option of taking veteran skills during the same era that loyalists could take many of the same skills as chapter traits. Making them equal.

B: Because it was an option, that also meant that many CSMs at that time could be in fact less "elite" than contemporary loyalists who bought those options.

So in the era that you reference some CSMs were more elite, and some were less. That is if you really want to set the record straight.

I remember way back when I first started playing having this same talk of " Chaos is more skillful, all 10,000 years old !! "

Ok I get the wanting chaos to be all super elite, but has been said they aren't all from back in the heresy. Every space marine is a veteran in their own regard according to selection process and how the weak are weeded out. In all honesty though elite status isn't really shown in many books properly. Like Deathwatch, they are supposed to be like the xeno fighting rainbox six of space marines. Yet for all that, they have higher Leadership and an extra attack ? Pretty bad ass.. What I'm saying is they don't translate elite well for many units. Aside from squad selection due to wargear they really don't come off very elite when they should. So chaos marines being roughly on par with loyalist marines makes sense to me.

Now them having access to be able to take chosen or the like for troops should be there, but the regular chaos marine entry is fine. Though as this argument has lasted since when I started at the beginning of 3rd edition I doubt it's going to stop now.

Bharring wrote:

Not all Marines who consort with Chaos are Veterans of the Long War.

GW really needs to write that Veterans of the Long War nonsense out of the fluff. It could be an upgrade for characters, but for basic units it's just absurd.

"Listen boy, I was there when the Legion broke with the False Emperor! I've been fighting the Imperial scum for ten thousand years?"
"And you're still just a bolter-toting member of a basic squad?"
"Er...yes."
"Kind of an underachiever, aren't you?"