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The general rule of thumb is “don’t tell people how to use their stuff”. If you don’t like playing against grey plastic, then politely refuse games; don’t try to deny that person playing against anybody/everybody else as well (the way a certain obnoxious bird attempts to do on here). If you’re running a tournament and you don’t want unpainted models, then find some form of “handicap” against unpainted models. People will paint up or leave, but it’ll be on them. Flat out denying them access to play removes people from the hobby.

That's where I'd disagree. If you're running a tournament, you're selling a product. You want that product to look as good as possible. That is your advertising for future events. That's how you make your event stand out, and become a higher goal.

People need to get rid of the silly "gatekeeping" statements. No one is stopping anyone from playing this game. God forbid we try to hold people to the occasional standard for a large event.

Lets not forget "Tournaments" can mean anything

From just a regular club night with the club regulars through to a multinational event drawing in hundreds of people as well as having stalls, livestreaming, etc...



At the lower end of the scale its little different to a regular club night; whilst at the other its a major event.


So whilst one can hope for even standards in general; the local situation is going to dictate what happens. The smaller more local tournament is likely to be more open to unpainted models and might even have to accept them to make up the numbers; meanwhile your major international event is at the opposite end of things and can afford to be more picky with the standards they require for entry.

I agree, even Reese (Reece?) from FLG etc. acknowledged that as their event grew their standards grew as well. I completely agree that your local 8-10 persona "tournament" at a shop will almost never have a limit on painted models.

But a large professionally run event? Absolutely should.

 Stormatious wrote:

EDIT - Insaniak, how do you determine what is a badly painted model any way, most people would rather see the best effort of some one at least trying there best instead of just grey killing of tradition.

A few examples I've encountered over the years - The Space Marine army dipped (literally just held by the base and dipped head-first) in blue house paint. The 'three-colour minimum' tournament army where the models had been sprayed white, and then their feet dipped in blue paint, and their heads dipped in red paint. Or the less extreme examples of armies painted with no real care or attention to detail, because the painter is only painting them because he feels he 'has' to in order to use them, resulting in less than stellar results.

I'm not at all talking about people who have put in a best effort and just don't have the ability or the experience to paint at any given level. If you're putting effort into painting your models, that's fantastic, regardless of your level of ability. But if you would rather not paint models, then I would rather play against bare grey models than models that have been deliberately painted badly just because some guy on the internet thinks that you should do anything other than what you want to do with your models.




We're not talking sheep stations here. It's a hobby. A recreational activity. If there are parts of that activity that you don't enjoy, and that aren't essential to the parts of that you do enjoy, then don't waste your time on them. Better to have someone enjoying their hobby with unpainted models than someone who drops out because they never get anything painted.


I feel I should point out again that it's also not an uncommon view amongst those who don't paint their armies that they would rather have their models bare grey than 'spoil' them by putting paint on them. It's not about other people judging their painting ability, it's about them personally not being happy with the way their painting looks, and so not doing it. And that's fine... Their models, they can do, or not do, what they want with them.

I feel I should point out again that it's also not an uncommon view amongst those who don't paint their armies that they would rather have their models bare grey than 'spoil' them by putting paint on them. It's not about other people judging their painting ability, it's about them personally not being happy with the way their painting looks, and so not doing it. And that's fine... Their models, they can do, or not do, what they want with them.

Being an unskilled perfectionist is a NIGHTMARE!

There are two kinds of people with unpainted models.

The guy who hasn't painted them yet. Not everyone has a lot of time on their hands. Painting models takes quite a bit of time, and for some people- this game, or that particular army might not be their primary hobby. And sometimes, especially when it comes to Space Marines- people may want to try out a few things before they commit hundreds of dollars worth of models to a specific paint scheme.

And then...

The guy who isn't going to paint them. You can call me a jerk here, but I don't play with this person. And it may be me being judgemental, but in my years of experience- every single time without fail, when I've encountered the guy that does not paint his models at all- he's a WAAC player with some flavor-of-the-month list with models he bought and slapped together in an afternoon (often missing detail bits, covered in sprue-spurs, and mold lines you can shave with)- and just as soon as this list of his gets fixed in a FAQ, he tosses those 'Space Wolves' in a box or they show up next month as Dark Angels or whatever flavor of Space Marines he needs them to be in order to win.

For this guy, I don't think he sees them as 'models', he sees them as mandatory tokens to use in a game and the 'winning games' part of the hobby has come first... and quite honestly, avoiding this sort of person is the best decision one can make (in my opinion).

Like I said, it may sound mean or stupid or whatever, I get it- but it was just a repeated experience and it stuck with me, so when I see the same guy using grey plastic for months- without even blasting them with primer... I just assume the worst, and so far I've not been wrong.

This is from someone who paints a lot more than he plays, and generally paints what he assembles (so no shelves of unpainted stuff), but does not play with unpainted miniatures.

I will play against unpainted minis. However, it does reduce my enjoyment of the game, so I will seek out players with painted armies to improve my enjoyment of the hobby. So the people with unpainted armies are kind of the 'last kid chosen' for hobby time.

Beginners and people making progress in painting their army get generous amounts of slack in this regard.

Then play with me some time and I will prove you wrong. I almost always play WYSIWYG (and if I don't, it's one or two small details I alert the other players to before the game starts), and make sure to make my models look as clean as I can without stressing about breaking a piece, and I always have detailed point lists with breakdowns about wargear and values as well as any special qualities.

All that with grey models.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Then play with me some time and I will prove you wrong. I almost always play WYSIWYG (and if I don't, it's one or two small details I alert the other players to before the game starts), and make sure to make my models look as clean as I can without stressing about breaking a piece, and I always have detailed point lists with breakdowns about wargear and values as well as any special qualities.

All that with grey models.

So without me scrolling up, lemme ask- why are your models grey?

My issue with unpainted plastic has to do with the chapter/etc traits. I don't care if you want to run for example a Space marine chapter of your own devising that used pink polka dots. Great! that would be impressive! I do however, need to be able to recognize easily which portions of your army get the space wolves melee trait, and which get the dark angels I can't hit them with guard trait. That is my only concern on painted/unpainted. I try to paint my armies cohesively, and since I'm a garagehammer guy, run almost exclusive mono armies. I do not force that on opponents.
But...
For my sanity give me some way to tell which of your guys have which trait. As a player and modeler I WANT to see your cool ideas, creativity, etc, but if all you have is bases with the rim colored different, I will live. Some of the best friends and players I know have a super low skill level with paints, and I would never hold that against them. That said, they still have sprayed and washed their armies. It isn't that hard.


I do desperately miss when the game was more about modeling than collectible card game deck building. I understand the theory of youngsters have a cell phone to occupy their time so don't model etc and we need their money.

Because I don't like painting, and I would rather put my money towards getting the models with the correct pieces down (especially when I am running an army that is OOP) before I spend a lot more to make sure they have a uniform color scheme. Don't get me wrong, I will get them painted one day, but that is far down the road.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Because I don't like painting, and I would rather put my money towards getting the models with the correct pieces down (especially when I am running an army that is OOP) before I spend a lot more to make sure they have a uniform color scheme. Don't get me wrong, I will get them painted one day, but that is far down the road.

So you're the guy that hasn't painted them yet, not the guy who isn't going to paint them at all.

See my post again, maybe you skimmed over it or something or maybe I wasn't clear.

It's like turning up to a fancy dress party without a costume.
Yea you can come in, but your kinda dragging the vibe down and everyone is going to know you half arsed it!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Because I don't like painting, and I would rather put my money towards getting the models with the correct pieces down (especially when I am running an army that is OOP) before I spend a lot more to make sure they have a uniform color scheme. Don't get me wrong, I will get them painted one day, but that is far down the road.

So you're the guy that hasn't painted them yet, not the guy who isn't going to paint them at all.

See my post again, maybe you skimmed over it or something or maybe I wasn't clear.

I'll get someone to paint them, but that is likely years away, so in many ways I am probably seen as the people who don't get their models painted

It's about simple courtesy for me.

I mean, there's absolutely nothing preventing someone from showing up at a game with an "army" consisting of plain, grey plastic cylinders of various appropriate sizes with the name and equipment of the model they represent written on them in Sharpie. The game's rules would function just as well, and there are loads of people out there who utterly despise assembling miniatures every bit as much as the folk who dislike painting despise doing that.

And yet, people don't do that. The very idea someone would do that without clearing it in advance with all involved is just bizarre, right?

You don't even really need to finish building most models, so long as they approximate the appropriate silhouette and their main equipment is easily identifiable, someone who disliked assembling models could easily half-arse the task and still have a perfectly playable albeit pretty visually unappealing army.

And yet, again, people don't really do that. If they do, they would certainly get a hard time about it.

Come at it from a different angle again - plenty of people out there care far, far more about making cool models, painting cool models, and making up cool stories than they do about the minutiae of the game system, but there is a very, very strong expectation that they will have a reasonable grasp of the rules when they show up to play another person.

It is expected that you will arrive at a game with a fully and completely assembled army of appropriate miniatures. It is expected that you will arrive at a game with a sufficient grasp of the rules to make playing it with you an enjoyable experience rather than a chore. Yet when anyone dares to suggest that it also be expected that you've put that same bare minimum level of effort into painting your models, the wails of "gatekeeper!" and "it's my hobby time I do whut I want!" begin.

Are you new to the game? Cool, everyone should be willing to cut new folk some slack, in all areas - if you forget a rule or assemble a model with the wrong gun folk will let it slide, and the same is and should be true for painting. If you have a group of buddies who all share your pet peeves and agree to waive normal expectations for one or more aspects of the hobby, great, you do you and have fun.

But if someone shows up to a venue - store, club, tournament, whatever - with people who're not buddies with whom they have a prior understanding, and said someone is not a new player who's only been in the hobby a short time, then yes, their army should be painted, just as it should be properly assembled, and just as they should know the rules well enough to play. Because that's just the basic level of respect for your fellow hobbyists that should be expected.

Of course, people are perfectly within their legal rights to ignore common courtesy altogether, but they don't then get to play the put-upon victim of ebil gatekeeping-gamer oppression if folk tell them to jog on.

 Sunsanvil wrote:

 lifeafter wrote:
Non-drilled out gun barrels are still unplayable even if pro-painted.

This...so very much this. LOL

Agreed! ^^

Seriously though, if your models are nicely painted but the gun barrels aren't drillid it really ruins the whole model (a bit exaggerated). The same goes for the exhausts on tanks (Rhinos, I'm looking at you).
Though the barrels on REALLY thin gunbarrels might get a pass. I am one of those dumb-dumbs that drills the barrels of the Skitarii.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I really, really, really, really, don't care what other people do with their time, money and possessions.

Fair enough, but it affects the opponent's experience too. I also don't care what other people do with their time, but I do when my time is affected

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I really, really, really, really, don't care what other people do with their time, money and possessions.

Fair enough, but it affects the opponent's experience too. I also don't care what other people do with their time, but I do when my time is affected

It doesn't affect your experience unless you choose to allow it to do so. If you don't want to paint against unpainted minis, don't.

All that's being said is that if you choose that path, acknowledge that you're doing it due to your own preferences, rather than because the other guy is somehow in the wrong.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'll get someone to paint them, but that is likely years away, so in many ways I am probably seen as the people who don't get their models painted

If it's an OOP model range, then you can hardly be blamed for waiting to flesh out the entire range and get everything you want the way you want it to be before handing it over as one large project to someone for them to paint it. It's not something you can simply 'do over', and I wouldn't be too irked by that.

You gotta understand, "The guy that is never going to paint them" that I'm talking about? He wouldn't be the dude collecting OOP models as a completionist, or putting real effort into making the actual model itself look presentable. He'll find the cheapest and laziest proxy he can get away with, haphazardly glue it together and throw onto the table while it's still 'a hot list' and toss that junk once something better comes along or the rules get a FAQ.

The last time I saw this, the dude half-assed a Morty and Mags with some daemon princes, and the TO said "All models have to at least have three colors on them", and this dude literally went and borrowed three different colors of primer and just spray-blasted every model he had with a little bit of each so he could run some broken tournament list.

Mortty and Mags? What's that?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Mortty and Mags? What's that?

Mortarion and Magnus.

I give all characters in 40k cute nicknames. Like, you know- "Chaps Grimmy".

 insaniak wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I really, really, really, really, don't care what other people do with their time, money and possessions.

Fair enough, but it affects the opponent's experience too. I also don't care what other people do with their time, but I do when my time is affected

It doesn't affect your experience unless you choose to allow it to do so. If you don't want to paint against unpainted minis, don't.

All that's being said is that if you choose that path, acknowledge that you're doing it due to your own preferences, rather than because the other guy is somehow in the wrong.

Again - is it wrong to expect people to properly assemble their models? Is it wrong to expect people to have a reasonable grasp of the rules?

If it is, then why are those things extremely widely accepted, to the point where I've rarely ever encountered anyone who didn't meet that expectation? And if it isn't, then why is it wrong to also expect the same level of effort when it comes to painting?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Flat out denying them access to play removes people from the hobby.

This is a feature not a bug.

 Peregrine wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Flat out denying them access to play removes people from the hobby.

This is a feature not a bug.

So you are looking to turn people away from the game?

 Yodhrin wrote:

Again - is it wrong to expect people to properly assemble their models? Is it wrong to expect people to have a reasonable grasp of the rules?

If it is, then why are those things extremely widely accepted, to the point where I've rarely ever encountered anyone who didn't meet that expectation? And if it isn't, then why is it wrong to also expect the same level of effort when it comes to painting?

You can expect whatever you want to expect. That's entirely up to you. The point is simply that the other guy isn't automatically in the wrong just because he didn't meet your expectations.

You're not 'wrong' for expecting your opponent to have a reasonable grasp of the rules... but you're going to be frequently disappointed in pick up games and tournie games, from my experience over the years, so I've learnt to not expect any given level of rules knowledge.

It's certainly reasonable to expect models to be assembled, since the game uses the physical profile of the models for rules interactions. The existence or lack thereof of paint on the models makes no difference to those rules interactions, however, and, ultimately, how big an issue the unassembled models are is down to how you choose to approach it. I'll repeat what I said in the last thread on this topic:

I've played against armies that included blank bases. I've faced units of Kroot legs. Armless marines. And in one tournament game, a Land Raider Crusader with no weapons and a hull held together with rubber bands. (although that latter model was at least sprayed black!)

I've played against Golden Demon level armies. I've faced Inkwashed Hordes. Three color standard armies. And one marine army that had literally been dipped in a tin of house paint.

In all of those cases, the attitude of my opponent counted far more towards whether or not the game was enjoyable than the amount of paint on the models did.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I really, really, really, really, don't care what other people do with their time, money and possessions.

Fair enough, but it affects the opponent's experience too. I also don't care what other people do with their time, but I do when my time is affected

It doesn't affect your experience unless you choose to allow it to do so. If you don't want to paint against unpainted minis, don't.

All that's being said is that if you choose that path, acknowledge that you're doing it due to your own preferences, rather than because the other guy is somehow in the wrong.

Again - is it wrong to expect people to properly assemble their models? Is it wrong to expect people to have a reasonable grasp of the rules?

If it is, then why are those things extremely widely accepted, to the point where I've rarely ever encountered anyone who didn't meet that expectation? And if it isn't, then why is it wrong to also expect the same level of effort when it comes to painting?

Because models and rules are required to play the game and paint isn't.

This is like saying "If it's reasonable to expect people to bring the proper pieces and know the rules then why is it unreasonable to expect them to dress up black tie style for the game?" See how one part isn't required to play?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
So you are looking to turn people away from the game?

If they refuse to paint their models, then yes. I want them gone.

For an official tournament that is being published in a trade magazine, or website, I can see enforcing a 3 color minimum. But otherwise, who gives a flip?

You do not get to tell me how to enjoy the hobby, let alone how to enjoy the game.

40K is different things to different people. For me, it's about modeling, and I see painting as a necessary evil - I don't enjoy it, but I do it. They do look cooler when they're painted, I don't think there's any argument to be made there.

On the other hand, for people who just want to play it as a game and not a hobby, I can understand the feeling that painting their models makes as much sense as painting their monopoly pieces or giving their poker chips a 3 color pattern and wash. Who am I to tell them how to enjoy their little plastic army men?

When I painted my minis, it was for me, not so I can feel like I have the standing to force someone else to fit some arbitrary standard.

The whole thing seems silly, honestly.

Of course, tournaments should feel free to do whatever they like in terms of restrictions, that's a little different.