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 Peregrine wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
So you are looking to turn people away from the game?

If they refuse to paint their models, then yes. I want them gone.

We all want different things. That doesn't mean it's going to happen or that we should enforce this will on others. If your playing a CCG like Magic, you don't need sleeves (except for tournaments). No one is going to go to a card shop and refuse to play you because you don't have sleeves.

I voted - Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain)

For me, this means local club level. Friday night friendly game situation, If say someone has just recently got into the hobby or they started a new army which is in the process of getting painted/built. Fine

If someone wanted to try out different units to see how they perform in the list with the already mostly painted so they can decide if they want to commit? Absolutely fine. Painting is a big time commitment and I respect that. Thats logical.

What I would mind is someone consistently turning up to a game with gray plastic, that has not even been based and primed? Yes I would. And I probably would avoid playing that person.

If they were an absolute beginner and they just built their first 500 point list? Bring on ya plastic and lets roll some dice!!!

I would personally never put a gray model in the field. I think cleaning your miniature's mold lines, gluing it together neatly and basing with some PVA/Sand and then priming is infinitely better than gray plastic. It shows that at least you are trying and making steps in the right direction. That's all anyone can ask for really. And I'm just going to say it; t really is not that difficult.

Like fancy dress If you are doing an excercise class, gym session or a sewing circle, or whatever else you have that involves more than one person to participate. We all seen that one one person that turns up and doesn't take the activity seriously, sometimes even mocks it, it just ruins the vibe. And war-gaming is whether you like ti or not an activity for more than one person.

And in majority of cases we are too polite to say anything.
It tells everyone what kind of person they are instinctively. Yeah its knee jerk. is it wrong or right? It doesn't matter, it is what it is.

**Not directed at anyone in particular***

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
We all want different things. That doesn't mean it's going to happen or that we should enforce this will on others. If your playing a CCG like Magic, you don't need sleeves (except for tournaments). No one is going to go to a card shop and refuse to play you because you don't have sleeves.

Whether or not I can convince stores/clubs/etc to ban the use of unpainted models it's still the right thing to do. I accept that I'm not going to have much luck with that, but I'm not going to pretend to have anything but contempt for people who refuse to paint their models or think that they should be seen in public.

And not playing with sleeves is not a reasonable comparison. It's stupid and self-destructive, but it doesn't change my enjoyment of the game if you trash your cards. But playing with unpainted models does, as it forces me to look at your gray plastic horde and severely damages the aesthetic appeal of the game. And it's a miniatures game, FFS. The whole reason we play with miniatures instead of cardboard tokens on a hex grid like so many other wargames is for the aesthetic value. If you don't care about that then why don't you play a game that doesn't use miniatures?

So, just because I don't want to paint, something I don't enjoy and which has no relevance on how the actual game is played, I'm mocking the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
We all want different things. That doesn't mean it's going to happen or that we should enforce this will on others. If your playing a CCG like Magic, you don't need sleeves (except for tournaments). No one is going to go to a card shop and refuse to play you because you don't have sleeves.

Whether or not I can convince stores/clubs/etc to ban the use of unpainted models it's still the right thing to do. I accept that I'm not going to have much luck with that, but I'm not going to pretend to have anything but contempt for people who refuse to paint their models or think that they should be seen in public.

And not playing with sleeves is not a reasonable comparison. It's stupid and self-destructive, but it doesn't change my enjoyment of the game if you trash your cards. But playing with unpainted models does, as it forces me to look at your gray plastic horde and severely damages the aesthetic appeal of the game. And it's a miniatures game, FFS. The whole reason we play with miniatures instead of cardboard tokens on a hex grid like so many other wargames is for the aesthetic value. If you don't care about that then why don't you play a game that doesn't use miniatures?

Some people like the aesthetic of the models with or without paint.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
So, just because I don't want to paint, something I don't enjoy and which has no relevance on how the actual game is played, I'm mocking the game?

It has relevance on how the game is played. The game looks like when you put unpainted models on the table.

 Peregrine wrote:

And not playing with sleeves is not a reasonable comparison. It's stupid and self-destructive, but it doesn't change my enjoyment of the game if you trash your cards.

The requirement to use sleeves isn't about cards being damaged, it's about making sure players aren't marking their card backs.

But playing with unpainted models does, as it forces me to look at your gray plastic horde and severely damages the aesthetic appeal of the game.

Then that's a reason for you to not play against people with unpainted armies. And that's reasonable.

Expecting players that don't meet your standards to get the hell out of 'your' hobby? Not so much.

And it's a miniatures game, FFS. The whole reason we play with miniatures instead of cardboard tokens on a hex grid like so many other wargames is for the aesthetic value. If you don't care about that then why don't you play a game that doesn't use miniatures?

So, just to check, are we pretending that all of the previous times you've had this explained to you didn't happen?

The fact that you play miniatures games for their aesthetic value doesn't mean that everyone else shares those reasons.
The fact that you think that painted minis are aesthetically superior to unpainted miniatures for that purpose doesn't mean that everyone else shares that opinion.

The fact that you still don't get this after having it explained to you time and time again is seriously starting to suggest that you're just trolling by this point.

 insaniak wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

EDIT - Insaniak, how do you determine what is a badly painted model any way, most people would rather see the best effort of some one at least trying there best instead of just grey killing of tradition.

A few examples I've encountered over the years - The Space Marine army dipped (literally just held by the base and dipped head-first) in blue house paint. The 'three-colour minimum' tournament army where the models had been sprayed white, and then their feet dipped in blue paint, and their heads dipped in red paint. Or the less extreme examples of armies painted with no real care or attention to detail, because the painter is only painting them because he feels he 'has' to in order to use them, resulting in less than stellar results.

I'm not at all talking about people who have put in a best effort and just don't have the ability or the experience to paint at any given level. If you're putting effort into painting your models, that's fantastic, regardless of your level of ability. But if you would rather not paint models, then I would rather play against bare grey models than models that have been deliberately painted badly just because some guy on the internet thinks that you should do anything other than what you want to do with your models.




We're not talking sheep stations here. It's a hobby. A recreational activity. If there are parts of that activity that you don't enjoy, and that aren't essential to the parts of that you do enjoy, then don't waste your time on them. Better to have someone enjoying their hobby with unpainted models than someone who drops out because they never get anything painted.



I feel I should point out again that it's also not an uncommon view amongst those who don't paint their armies that they would rather have their models bare grey than 'spoil' them by putting paint on them. It's not about other people judging their painting ability, it's about them personally not being happy with the way their painting looks, and so not doing it. And that's fine... Their models, they can do, or not do, what they want with them.

I understand what you're saying, but this sort of attitude "its ok because we have more players" and "some people don't enjoy painting" is a major contributing factor to the watering down of what the core values of war gaming really is to the core base.

Edit - I AM NOT QUOTING YOU DIRECTLY INSANIAK.

 Stormatious wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but this sort of attitude "its ok because we have more players" and "some people don't enjoy painting" is a major contributing factor to the watering down of what the core values of war gaming really is to the core base.

OK, once again for the back row: If I don't paint my miniatures, that has absolutely ZERO effect on your game experience, unless you choose to play against me with my unpainted miniatures.

Having more people in the hobby is ultimately more important than having everybody doing it the same way. The more people in the hobby, the better opportunity there is for the companies making the games we play to grow. And, rather handily, the better your chances are of finding like-minded people to play against - The bigger the pool of people to draw from, the bigger the number of people sharing any given opinion on how to play the game.

Edit - I AM NOT QUOTING YOU DIRECTLY INSANIAK.

Really? Because the part where you directly quoted me would seem to suggest otherwise...

 insaniak wrote:
The requirement to use sleeves isn't about cards being damaged, it's about making sure players aren't marking their card backs.

Yes, in tournaments. The post I was replying to specifically said "except for tournaments", and in non-tournament games with nothing at stake only TFGs are going to be marking their cards. Nobody cares if you play without sleeves outside of a tournament because you're only hurting yourself by doing so.

Expecting players that don't meet your standards to get the hell out of 'your' hobby? Not so much.

Why should I have to look at their unpainted hordes? Why should other players have to face the awkward situation of turning down a game when the store/club/etc can simply remove the objectionable players from the community? I'm enough of a dick to tell someone to paint their models or stop wasting my time, but some people think it's rude and are reluctant to refuse a game even when they know they aren't going to enjoy it much.

The fact that you play miniatures games for their aesthetic value doesn't mean that everyone else shares those reasons.

If you're spending thousands of dollars on miniatures when $20 cardboard token games provide an equal or better pure gameplay experience and you aren't enjoying the aesthetic value, well, I have to question your sanity.

The fact that you think that painted minis are aesthetically superior to unpainted miniatures for that purpose doesn't mean that everyone else shares that opinion.

Some people think that eating rotting cheese filled with maggots is an enjoyable experience. The fact that someone has an opinion doesn't mean that I have to consider that opinion to have any value or truth whatsoever.

The fact that you still don't get this after having it explained to you time and time again is seriously starting to suggest that you're just trolling by this point.

Considering your argument to be incredibly weak and unpersuasive is not the same thing as not getting it. I understand exactly what you are saying. You're just wrong.

 insaniak wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but this sort of attitude "its ok because we have more players" and "some people don't enjoy painting" is a major contributing factor to the watering down of what the core values of war gaming really is to the core base.

OK, once again for the back row: If I don't paint my miniatures, that has absolutely ZERO effect on your game experience, unless you choose to play against me with my unpainted miniatures.

Having more people in the hobby is ultimately more important than having everybody doing it the same way. The more people in the hobby, the better opportunity there is for the companies making the games we play to grow. And, rather handily, the better your chances are of finding like-minded people to play against - The bigger the pool of people to draw from, the bigger the number of people sharing any given opinion on how to play the game.

Edit - I AM NOT QUOTING YOU DIRECTLY INSANIAK.

Really? Because the part where you directly quoted me would seem to suggest otherwise...

I mean not quoting your exact words, sorry my bad for not explaining that properly.

I feel its better to have a dedicated traditional core base that reflects the values to other newbies in a way where they realise its not ok to have greys and thus dont effect any watering down effect of what i think most people believe is an extremely important part of wargaming, and don't know why you say "having every one doing it the same way" ( i my self paint my own way with lots of ideas from other people but nothing exactly the same way )

 Peregrine wrote:
Nobody cares if you play without sleeves outside of a tournament because you're only hurting yourself by doing so.

Yup, nobody ever calls out cheaters in non-tournament games.

Why should I have to look at their unpainted hordes?

You don't...?

If you're spending thousands of dollars on miniatures when $20 cardboard token games provide an equal or better pure gameplay experience and you aren't enjoying the aesthetic value, well, I have to question your sanity.

Someone who likes the miniatures regardless of whether or not they are painted is not going to be any more interested in a cardboard token game than someone who likes painted miniatures.

But, again, this has been explained to you before.

Some people think that eating rotting cheese filled with maggots is an enjoyable experience. The fact that someone has an opinion doesn't mean that I have to consider that opinion to have any value or truth whatsoever.

Considering your argument to be incredibly weak and unpersuasive is not the same thing as not getting it. I understand exactly what you are saying. You're just wrong.

You can disagree with an opinion. That doesn't make that opinion wrong.

Continuing to make that sort of statement will be regarded as trolling.

 insaniak wrote:
Continuing to make that sort of statement will be regarded as trolling.

I see, the last resort of someone with a weak argument: declare that something you disagree with is "trolling", imply threat of moderator action if they keep saying it. And of course accusing someone of trolling is explicitly stated to be rude and a violation of forum rules, something that has earned me a temp ban for saying what you just said. Double standard, you think?

Meh, I don't mind. I'd rather have assembled unpainted minis than proxies.

 Melissia wrote:
Meh, I don't mind. I'd rather have assembled unpainted minis than proxies.

But is this some thing you don't mind all the time? or just some times?, id imagine you would not like it if it was a casual occurrence perhaps. But any way if you don't mind overall, do you not care that you are contributing to future players greying the hobby up and slowly chipping away value and tradition.

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, nobody ever calls out cheaters in non-tournament games.

Not using sleeves =/= cheating. Please don't make straw man arguments.

You don't...?

Of course I do. People are playing with them in a public store/game club/etc. And people less confrontational than me have to deal with those armies because refusing a game can be a socially awkward thing to do, with open gaming space there's a lot of pressure to play against anyone who wants to play. It's much better to have a strict "no unpainted models" policy and improve the quality of the community, even if it means that some people will decide to quit as a result.

Someone who likes the miniatures regardless of whether or not they are painted is not going to be any more interested in a cardboard token game than someone who likes painted miniatures.

You're moving the goalposts here. Here are your words previously:

The fact that you play miniatures games for their aesthetic value doesn't mean that everyone else shares those reasons.

I respond that you'd have to be insane to invest thousands of dollars in a miniatures game if you don't enjoy the aesthetic value compared to cardboard tokens, and now you're arguing that someone who does value aesthetics isn't going to be interested in cardboard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Meh, I don't mind. I'd rather have assembled unpainted minis than proxies.

Why do you have to accept one or the other? Why not enforce both WYSIWYG and painted models?

Why not enforce a black tie dress code?

Because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Elitism is toxic. Enforced elitism is disgusting. Ive said it before. These people are the absolute worst for the hobby. We would all be better off without the elitists.

 Lance845 wrote:
Why not enforce a black tie dress code?

Because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Elitism is toxic. Enforced elitism is disgusting. Ive said it before. These people are the absolute worst for the hobby. We would all be better off without the elitists.

Yeah exactly it has nothing at all to do with the game so why are you mentioning that.

edit - Cant compare apples and tomatoes.

Btw, I play both Magic and 40K, so how does that work in the logic of your arguement?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Btw, I play both Magic and 40K, so how does that work in the logic of your arguement?

Just ignore any TCG comparisons to 40k please.... please.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Yup, nobody ever calls out cheaters in non-tournament games.

Not using sleeves =/= cheating. Please don't make straw man arguments.

I never said that not using sleeves is cheating. I said that the reason that people expect others to use sleeves is to prevent cheating.

Of course I do. People are playing with them in a public store/game club/etc

Oh, the horror.

Oh, and, GASP! Look, up on the store walls! More unpainted miniatures!

How can you even stand to be in this place?

. ... with open gaming space there's a lot of pressure to play against anyone who wants to play.

In 25 years, that has never been my experience.

You're moving the goalposts here. Here are your words previously:

The fact that you play miniatures games for their aesthetic value doesn't mean that everyone else shares those reasons.

I respond that you'd have to be insane to invest thousands of dollars in a miniatures game if you don't enjoy the aesthetic value compared to cardboard tokens, and now you're arguing that someone who does value aesthetics isn't going to be interested in cardboard.

That's not moving goalposts, they're two separate points.
Someone who likes the miniatures for their aesthetics isn't going to be as interested in cardboard tokens.
Someone who likes the game regardless of the aesthetics isn't automatically going to be interested in a completely different game, particularly if 40K is the only game anyone they have access to is interested in playing. And that's not even getting into all of the ways that people can wind up with a 40K army without going out and buying it new.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Continuing to make that sort of statement will be regarded as trolling.

I see, the last resort of someone with a weak argument: declare that something you disagree with is "trolling", imply threat of moderator action if they keep saying it. And of course accusing someone of trolling is explicitly stated to be rude and a violation of forum rules, something that has earned me a temp ban for saying what you just said. Double standard, you think?

You know better than to claim that an opinion is wrong just because you disagree with it. And so, yes, doing that is trolling.

 Lance845 wrote:
Why not enforce a black tie dress code?

Because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Elitism is toxic. Enforced elitism is disgusting. Ive said it before. These people are the absolute worst for the hobby. We would all be better off without the elitists.

IOW, you're an elitist about people you consider "elitists" and a hypocrite.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Why not enforce a black tie dress code?

Because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Elitism is toxic. Enforced elitism is disgusting. Ive said it before. These people are the absolute worst for the hobby. We would all be better off without the elitists.

IOW, you're an elitist about people you consider "elitists" and a hypocrite.

Calm down and move on from this

Ok now this has become officially uncivil. Come on please stop, i don't want another locked grey thread.

 Stormatious wrote:
Ok now this has become official uncivil. Come on please stop, i dont want another locked grey thread.

Exactly

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Why not enforce a black tie dress code?

Because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Elitism is toxic. Enforced elitism is disgusting. Ive said it before. These people are the absolute worst for the hobby. We would all be better off without the elitists.

IOW, you're an elitist about people you consider "elitists" and a hypocrite.

No. Im protected by the Paradox of Tolerance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Its easy. You see, idiots with poor logic can try to argue that being intolerant of intolerance is itself counter to the goal. But its not.

The ideology of not accepting intolerant toxic elements in your circle/society/whatever is actually the right and duty of its every member to protect its every member and their continued existance and growth. You're welcome back as soon as you get the chip off your shoulder. Until then your attitude is the worst and again, we are all better off without you.

Stop, please. No name calling or personal arguements, we need to keep this civil.

I don't imagine it'll remain particularly civil. Many of us have made our points, but we've reached the inevitable internet stage where people are somehow offended by said opinions. It's the usual bit of "if you don't want the answer...don't ask the question".

I imagine I'm older than probably 80% of the Dakka crowd (possibly more). Been gaming since the early 90's and since that time I've upped my hobby a ton. As an adult I have the funds, and time, and just enough ability to put forward my best efforts. I simply don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more from people in a communcal/social hobby. As I mentioned in my first response (and we've seen numerous times in the thread already), the "it's my hobby" thing is just not acceptable in many settings. It's a social game between two or more parties. You are an integral part of the game.

It's never wrong for a hobby community to want to raise the standard of their hobby. That should be something people want to strive to achieve. I've never seen someone turned down for a game because of their models being unpainted. If you're not allowed to a tournament because it - respect that. It's not gate-keeping, it's not kicking people out of the hobby. That should serve as motivation, if nothing else. If you're not good at painting...start working on it. I've never seen a single person who was incapable of a basic tabletop standard of painting. Ask people in your group for hints, tips, and tricks. It's not magic. But your lack of motivation or "time" (which we oddly have time to play but not paint - a common bizarre statement) is not the community's responsibility. It's yours.

Putting on an attractive, well assembled wargame is a team effort. As Yodhrin and myself have stated - it's about respecting your opponent enough to make an effort to bring your best to the table.

Its civil.

Its simple logic.

Do you believe that we need policies that enforce behaviour that has nothing to do with the game on people who are playing a game?

Yes? That is the text book definition of elitism.

Elistism is toxic.

The paradox of tolerance say your welcome to state your opinions especially if you can be rational and discuss those opinions with logic. If you refuse to do so the tolerant have a right to protect their society from you. Especially if any of the toxic elitist ideals start to gain ground and corrupt a otherwise tolerant society.

Ergo, i hear that you like painted models. But trying to enforce your likes as policy is bad for all of us and we have a right to say get out as soon as you're a problem.

That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?

If you don't want to paint miniatures...why for the love of god would you get involved in something that's 33% painting miniatures?

The logic of this is beyond staggering.

What I find hilarious is that it's usually the very early players who WANT to field entire painted armies.
And then once they hit that middle ground they expect to have their choice of fielding grey plastic respected.

They'll be demanding a safe space next and a pronoun.
It's bad enough their seems to be a discussion over sleeves.
My hoody has sleeves.
I wear it.
Shut up and deal with it.

This is exactly why the wargaming community thinks GW and it's fanbase are a joke.
And worse the fanbase is ok with that...
No self respect. No pride.