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2019/03/18 05:24:06
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 05:40:53
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 05:41:17
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
ValentineGames wrote: If you don't want to paint miniatures...why for the love of god would you get involved in something that's 33% painting miniatures?
The logic of this is beyond staggering.
What I find hilarious is that it's usually the very early players who WANT to field entire painted armies.
And then once they hit that middle ground they expect to have their choice of fielding grey plastic respected.
They'll be demanding a safe space next and a pronoun.
It's bad enough their seems to be a discussion over sleeves.
My hoody has sleeves.
I wear it.
Shut up and deal with it.
This is exactly why the wargaming community thinks GW and it's fanbase are a joke.
And worse the fanbase is ok with that...
No self respect. No pride.
The waraming community thinks 40k players are a joke? I wouldn't know but hopefully that's just your opinion and not shared widely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 05:42:46
ValentineGames wrote: If you don't want to paint miniatures...why for the love of god would you get involved in something that's 33% painting miniatures?
Because the other 66% of the hobby is enjoyable to them?
Some people like modeling. Some people like the game. Some people like the lore. And, of course, plenty of people like the painting.
It's perfectly acceptable for someone to follow the assembly instructions to the letter (or I guess picture in GWs case) without a hint of creativity. It's acceptable for someone to use the game only as an avenue to showcase their models. It's (slightly less but still arguably) acceptable for someone to not give two gaks about the lore and just field what they think looks cool. Why is it that painting doesn't get the same treatment?
I've dredged through all of these threads and am continually astounded by how passionate people are over this.
Just because someone doesn't share your talent or interest in one particular facet of the game doesn't make them any less of a member of the hobby.
Douglas Adams wrote:If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a non-working cat.
2019/03/18 05:54:40
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
2019/03/18 06:02:25
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
You can go to a sports match without the right gear, but this doesn't mean people should not be still enforcing the main values and reminding people of what the traditional requirments are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:03:11
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
They fit the definition of elitist. They want to enforce elitist policy. And if those who enjoy the hobby want the hobby to be inclusive and tolerant then we shouldn't put up with that kind of crap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:08:24
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 06:11:28
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
No ones shunning any one or telling them to go away, its just re in forcing what supposedly goes hand in hand with the "hobby" not "petty game", its like i said, go to sports match without the correct gear and you will probably be ok to still play, but that doesn't mean vigorious reminders and strong encouragment to do it the way its supposed to be done properly should't happen, because if it doesn't happen, what is the result?, it is watering down and disassembling the core structure of what makes the hobby what it is.
Before I got into tabletop, I was probably a Yes person. Now that I understand the culture and the product ecosystem, I am a No person. Unpainted models should not be tolerated; partially painted models are okay as long as there is an expectation that they eventually be finished; proxies are okay as long as there is an expectation they they be acquired down the line pending the results of testing; etc.
Three reasons:
1) Community
The tabletop community, like any community, is bound together by a set of shared values and experiences. This involves buying models, building them, painting them, and playing with them--preferably in that order. This undoubtedly sets a high barrier to entry. But this is a feature, not a bug. Because really, why should anyone bother painting their models or building terrain at all if the goal is to get as many people into the game as possible? Why even use models? Why not cardboard cutouts or chits?
By refusing to paint your miniatures or to allow people to participate without any expectation that they paint their miniatures, you are eroding the foundations of the community.
2) Productization
Because it is expected that players paint their models, an entire product ecosystem has arisen to support that expectation. This productization of the painting process can be seen in miniature-specific paints, washes, decals, etc.
Without the expectation that people paint their models, the product ecosystem that has grown around that expectation will wither. Thus hurting the people who do want to paint their models.
3) Cool Factor
One of the primary means by which we recruit players to tabletop is how cool the models look. Of course, there are other factors of appeal, but let's be honest, the rules of competitive 40k are not one of them. 8E is probably the least horribly balanced edition ever, but it's not great either. Furthermore, painting our models is one of the key ways that we differentiate our models and make it not just cool for others, but express ourselves. Gray and white plastic and resin is neither cool nor expressive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:18:17
2019/03/18 06:16:04
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
No ones shunning any one or telling them to go away, its just re in forcing what supposedly goes hand in hand with the "hobby" not "petty game", its like i said, go to sports match without the correct gear and you will probably be ok to still play, but that doesn't mean vigorious reminders and strong encouragment to do it the way its supposed to be done properly should't happen, because if it doesn't happen, what is the result?, it is watering down and disassembling the core structure of what makes the hobby what it is.
"Correct gear" for a sport is to save peoples lives and or ensure fairness and a even playing field across different venues. Paint does none of those things. You have a false equivalency there. Get a better argument. Playing a game of 40k is just that. A game. The hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
If it disassembles your elitism, good. Disassemble away.
Whether or not I can convince stores/clubs/etc to ban the use of unpainted models it's still the right thing to do. I accept that I'm not going to have much luck with that, but I'm not going to pretend to have anything but contempt for people who refuse to paint their models or think that they should be seen in public.
Shunning.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:21:48
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 06:23:38
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
No ones shunning any one or telling them to go away, its just re in forcing what supposedly goes hand in hand with the "hobby" not "petty game", its like i said, go to sports match without the correct gear and you will probably be ok to still play, but that doesn't mean vigorious reminders and strong encouragment to do it the way its supposed to be done properly should't happen, because if it doesn't happen, what is the result?, it is watering down and disassembling the core structure of what makes the hobby what it is.
"Correct gear" for a sport is to save peoples lives and or ensure fairness and a even playing field across different venues. Paint does none of those things. You have a false equivalency there. Get a better argument. Playing a game of 40k is just that. A game. Te hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
If it disassembles your elitism, good. Disassemble away.
Actually paint helps your opponent easily identify troop types/weapons and it stops contributing to the effects of people coming in to hobby just because they get the feeling most people think greys are all good also in alot of peoples eyes not painting your minis and bringing them to battle is not fair and rather insulting, and it inspires and keeps the hobbys core systems glued nicely together.
Sorry if i am coming accross as an elitist to you, not trying to be.
Lance845 wrote: The hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
This sort of reductivism is misleading. You cannot simply separate the game from the hobby that sustains it. Games Workshop does not sell us a game. It sells us a productized hobby.
2019/03/18 06:28:27
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
No ones shunning any one or telling them to go away, its just re in forcing what supposedly goes hand in hand with the "hobby" not "petty game", its like i said, go to sports match without the correct gear and you will probably be ok to still play, but that doesn't mean vigorious reminders and strong encouragment to do it the way its supposed to be done properly should't happen, because if it doesn't happen, what is the result?, it is watering down and disassembling the core structure of what makes the hobby what it is.
"Correct gear" for a sport is to save peoples lives and or ensure fairness and a even playing field across different venues. Paint does none of those things. You have a false equivalency there. Get a better argument. Playing a game of 40k is just that. A game. Te hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
If it disassembles your elitism, good. Disassemble away.
Actually paint helps your opponent easily identify troop types/weapons
It can but its not needed.
and it stops contributing to the effects of people coming in to hobby just because they get the feeling most people think greys are all good
This is that elitism again.
Let me be clear. I WANT people to come into the hobby because they think they might enjoy any single aspect of it. Including the game. With no expectation that they have to participate in ANY other facet to contribute. Greys ARE all good. Your attitude is bad.
also in alot of peoples eyes not painting your minis and bringing them to battle is not fair and rather insulting,
I don't care about the sensitive and unreasonable thoughts and feelings of unreasonable people.
and it inspires and keeps the hobbys core systems glued nicely together.
Sorry if i am coming accross as an elitist to you, not trying to be.
I hope some day to do something so well without trying.
Lance845 wrote: The hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
This sort of reductivism is misleading. You cannot simply separate the game from the hobby that sustains it. Games Workshop does not sell us a game. It sells us a productized hobby.
Yeah. Its a good business model. How much each of us buy into that is up to the individual. Just because YOU bought into all of it doesn't mean I have to. I could buy models to customize and kit bash and paint and never buy a single codex because I give zero gaks about the game and don't want to play. Are you going to force me to put my models on a table and play you for hours?
Ridiculous right? So why the hell should you attempt to force people to paint in order to play?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:31:58
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 06:31:10
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Elbows wrote: That would, arguably, very much depend on your definition of 'elitism' wouldn't it?
How about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
The attitude of the individuals that believe that painted models have an intrisic quality that makes them more constructive to the hobby as a whole and therefore they deserve influence or authority to set policies of exclusion against those that dont have painted models.
Like how as of now 20 people voted that plastic bare models should not "be allowed".
For the sake of this discusion if i say elitist or elitism thats the definition im going with. Got one thats better?
I'm actually concerned that you believe painting miniatures is some kind of societal blight, and that hobbyists are setting policies....(unless you mean owners of businesses, because they absolutely have the authority to determine what goes on in their events/property).
No, I am saying that Peregrine, Stormacious, and others like them push an elitist ideology over a petty game. A game in a niche genre of games that could be really enjoyable for a lot more people except that their attitude IS toxic and has pushed people out from ever starting (I have mentioned in the past that I have seen this happen first hand). Peregrine and Stormacious are not quiet about WANTING to set policies. And in rebuttal, they should more or less be shunned.
It's the logical conclusion to the stance they take.
No ones shunning any one or telling them to go away, its just re in forcing what supposedly goes hand in hand with the "hobby" not "petty game", its like i said, go to sports match without the correct gear and you will probably be ok to still play, but that doesn't mean vigorious reminders and strong encouragment to do it the way its supposed to be done properly should't happen, because if it doesn't happen, what is the result?, it is watering down and disassembling the core structure of what makes the hobby what it is.
"Correct gear" for a sport is to save peoples lives and or ensure fairness and a even playing field across different venues. Paint does none of those things. You have a false equivalency there. Get a better argument. Playing a game of 40k is just that. A game. Te hobby that surrounds it in the form of lore, painting and modeling is all well and good but the one does not set policy for the other. The only thing that matters for the game is the rules of the game. There is no rule requiring paint.
If it disassembles your elitism, good. Disassemble away.
Actually paint helps your opponent easily identify troop types/weapons
It can but its not needed.
and it stops contributing to the effects of people coming in to hobby just because they get the feeling most people think greys are all good
This is that elitism again.
Let me be clear. I WANT people to come into the hobby because they think they might enjoy any single aspect of it. Including the game. With no expectation that they have to participate in ANY other facet to contribute. Greys ARE all good. Your attitude is bad.
also in alot of peoples eyes not painting your minis and bringing them to battle is not fair and rather insulting,
I don't care about the sensitive and unreasonable thoughts and feelings of unreasonable people.
and it inspires and keeps the hobbys core systems glued nicely together.
Sorry if i am coming accross as an elitist to you, not trying to be.
I hope some day to do something so well without trying.
How is it elitism, i feel im stating facts... Incase you arn't aware most people prefer painted minis ( just on a side note ) ( not counting this poll on this thread, since the question is too vague.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:32:46
Cite the study that says most people prefer painted minis? Cause right now the vote at the top of this page says your less than 50% which is very objectively not "most".
You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions that enforce a policy of snubbing the people who don't want to do what you want them to do.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 06:36:20
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Lance845 wrote: Cite the study that says most people prefer painted minis? Cause right now the vote at the top of this page says your less than 50% which is very objectively not "most".
You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions that enforce a policy of snubbing the people who don't want to do what you want them to do.
I just said ignore this poll because its too vague and not stating the situation in which one prefers painted models so you cant look at this poll to determine the question.
Look back a a couple of pages on 40k general discussion and see the polls related to this very topic for your answer. In other words, if you were aware of these type of threads recently you would see why i say most people.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:38:40
Lance845 wrote: Cite the study that says most people prefer painted minis? Cause right now the vote at the top of this page says your less than 50% which is very objectively not "most".
You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions that enforce a policy of snubbing the people who don't want to do what you want them to do.
I just said ignore this poll because its too vague and not stating the situation in which one prefers painted models so you cant look at this poll to determine the question.
Look back a a couple of pages on 40k general discussion and see the polls related to this very topic for your answer.
No. I won't. YOU dig up the data to support your ridiculous unsubstantiated claims.
But lets even pretend you do. It doesn't matter what "most" prefer. You have no say in how anyone else spends their leisure time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:38:36
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/03/18 06:47:39
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Lance845 wrote: Cite the study that says most people prefer painted minis? Cause right now the vote at the top of this page says your less than 50% which is very objectively not "most".
You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions that enforce a policy of snubbing the people who don't want to do what you want them to do.
I just said ignore this poll because its too vague and not stating the situation in which one prefers painted models so you cant look at this poll to determine the question.
Look back a a couple of pages on 40k general discussion and see the polls related to this very topic for your answer.
No. I won't. YOU dig up the data to support your ridiculous unsubstantiated claims.
But lets even pretend you do. It doesn't matter what "most" prefer. You have no say in how anyone else spends their leisure time.
It does matter what most people prefer, most people make up the core structure, with out that it all falls down over time. Im in no way saying how some is supposed to spend their leisure time, litteraly i am just telling you what the facts are.
Painting and wargaming have always been hand in glove, and how is it not factual for me to say you are contributing to the watering down of a ( word that starts with T ) when you don't highly encourage and enforce it.
Honestly I've never met anyone at any of the local clubs ive been to that wouldint like or prefer to have/play against a painted army or are not at least looking to improve. Of course that does not mean I can say this anectodal experiance speaks for the entire communtiy.
Call a spade a spade... Nothing wrong with being lazy. Everybody is to one degree or another. But trying to portray it as some sort of grand philosphical argument is just silly, Painitng is hard work. If someone CBF to do it, it is what it is so be it.
I just fail to understand not seeing the benefit of taking pride in something I invest a lot of money and time into and am trying to improve...Set a challange, complete, improve. Its satisfying If someone doesnt get that, i won't enjoy spending time with them. I don't want to play with them or be around them because theres an extremely high chance im going to have a bad time so im hedging my bets. The free time I have is precious to me. I want to spend with like minded people.
Ehh . this thread is a dumpster fire. Ive so bitten into it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 07:17:26
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
ValentineGames wrote: If you don't want to paint miniatures...why for the love of god would you get involved in something that's 33% painting miniatures?
Because the other 66% of the hobby is enjoyable to them
Then they can go play Heroclix.
And the reason so many of us get passionate about it and feel passionately about it is because some of us have self respect and pride in what we do and have the common decency to show that respect to others by not playing against them with trash.
You don't spend thousands of pounds on overpriced toys just to leave them grey and slap them in your opponents fully painted face and expect there to be no resentment from us who have used our time to get gak done.
And in this age of colour primers and washes and textured base paints you have no excuse.
If I can get 50 English civil war models tabletop standard in a saturday ready for sunday after five 12 hour shifts working I expect my opponent to be able to manage 1 squad of 10 a week...
Even if it's just 1 or 2 hours a day. Or 30 minutes.
Spray (let's say 10 guardsmen) green Monday.
Boots, belts, straps Tuesday.
Metallics Wednesday.
Flesh Thursday.
Wash, base and varnish Friday.
Ready for weekend.
You can touch them up later
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 07:18:55
2019/03/18 07:15:52
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
When i say enforce i mean highly encourage im not saying you HAVE TO do this or that or should be barred from some thing. Like enforce as in, enforce the "idea" of what great wargaming is or enforce the idea of "values/tradition".
I think enforce is the wrong word mabye
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 07:24:18
Not once in the 2 years I played 40K at my local gaming shop did anyone refuse to play my unpainted army, say anything about me being disrespectful by not having an unpainted army, or suggest any kind of ban on people playing with grey figures. The tournaments they held required painted models, but that was all. For me it was always about building the models and playing the game, and no one argued with me about it.
2019/03/18 07:55:09
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
The two people I play against the most hardly paints at all. All their painted models (bar a few) is painted by me. The rest of their models is a mix of primes, pure grey of haphazard attempts at painting. Both of them REALLY dislike painting and gluing. And no, why would they play another game like Heroclix if it THIS game they like?
Sure, I prefer to play against properly painted models, but exactly where is the line between "i won't play against you" and "Painted enough"? Is it enough to spray paint the models with three different rattle can paints? Do they have to be as well painted as yours -or better?
I'd much rather play against a nice dude/dudette with bare plastic models than a douche with a GD army. If I would hear someone refusing to play against someone because they don't have painted their models (at all or good enough) I would never play that s.o.b. I would probably not even talk to them. Why would I willingly suffer fools?
And another thing. The argument that is someone has the time to play, then they have time to paint is so wrong. If someone has 3 hours per week to EITHER play OR paint, many would choose to play. 3 hours of free time doesn't mean 3 hours to play AND 3 hours to paint.
And another thing 2: I'm glad to see that people (especially people that are losing an argument) aren't focusing on poor English and typos. (Y) Kudos to y'all!
Nurgle protects. Kinda.
2019/03/18 08:14:01
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Lance845 wrote: Cite the study that says most people prefer painted minis? Cause right now the vote at the top of this page says your less than 50% which is very objectively not "most".
You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions that enforce a policy of snubbing the people who don't want to do what you want them to do.
I just said ignore this poll because its too vague and not stating the situation in which one prefers painted models so you cant look at this poll to determine the question.
Look back a a couple of pages on 40k general discussion and see the polls related to this very topic for your answer. In other words, if you were aware of these type of threads recently you would see why i say most people.
The issue with this is that, by its very nature, a forum attracts a particular subset of the overall community - generally, people who are already sufficiently invested in "the hobby" (whatever that means) to decide to spend their free time searching for online resources, then stick around long enough to create an account etc, and then care enough about painting to actually get involved in a thread like this. Can you see how this might not give you a representative view of the wider community?
The way I see it, there are about five aspects to the GW hobby:
- Enjoying the backstory / fluff
- Building models (which can include converting / kitbashing)
- Painting models
- Theorising over gameplay / listbuilding
- Playing the game
Of these, 1 and 4 can be done without ever touching a model kit. You can enjoy building models (2) without ever painting or playing the game, too.
You need to have some element of model building in order to paint, unless you buy pre-built models - and some people do exactly that, buying second-hand to repaint.
You can theoretically play the game (5) without models, but it's not really accurate since things like line of sight are a thing, so using empty bases forces a level of abstraction. So I would say that either building models or buying pre-built ones makes a definite impact on the game.
But aside from things like telling factions apart, I can't see what difference painting makes to the actual playing of the game. So if you're only interested in the gaming side, I don't see why painting should be a requirement, any more than having a backstory for your army that fits into official 40K canon or spending hours considering the pros and cons of different lists.
2019/03/18 08:31:22
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
ValentineGames wrote: If you don't want to paint miniatures...why for the love of god would you get involved in something that's 33% painting miniatures?
It might be 33% for you.
For another person it's 100%
For yet another it is 5%.
And for yet another 0%.
You don't decide how much something is of hobby(or if you do please show your credentials as The Arbitator Of What Hobby Is For Each Person. Did United Nations give you such authority? Hopefully you aren't going to claim God Himself did it ). Hobby is to each what he makes it to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 08:47:43
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/03/18 08:46:23
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Please stop.
This has got beyond ridiculous.
Telling people to get out of the hobby because they haven't painted THEIR models is just plain narrow mindedness, telling people what to do in THEIR hobby time is insulting, wrong and downright offensive.
People can enjoy this hobby for all of it's facets, they may like building the models and playing the game but don't enjoy painting, that is perfectly fine. Ignore the people saying otherwise there are plenty of people who will play against you and your grey army.
Not a GW apologist
2019/03/18 08:52:37
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Rolsheen wrote: Please stop.
This has got beyond ridiculous.
Telling people to get out of the hobby because they haven't painted THEIR models is just plain narrow mindedness, telling people what to do in THEIR hobby time is insulting, wrong and downright offensive.
People can enjoy this hobby for all of it's facets, they may like building the models and playing the game but don't enjoy painting, that is perfectly fine. Ignore the people saying otherwise there are plenty of people who will play against you and your grey army.
This, i like to play against a painted army, or sometimes i even like to paint, however i am terrible slow. It would be moronical to force myself to paint everything i have just for some obscure people that demand it that way. Same applies to my fellow players , some just love to build convert and kitbash but can't hold a paintbrush. (incidentaly i fall close to that category) however it is the owners decision with what he shows up.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/03/18 09:27:17
Subject: A Civil Conversation of the use of Unpainted Models
Unpainted models should not be allowed in tournaments or official events. Why?
1) Painting is part of the hobby. Disagree as hard as you can, but it just is. It always was and hopefully always be.
2) Painted models look way better than unpainted ones.
3) Identification. Colors help with identification on the tabletop to some degree, be it individual models, squad markings, chapters/regiments etc or weapons. You know, that blue thingy is a Plasma gun, okay?
4) Advertising. (tied with point 2), imagine being someone who never saw a tabletop game. There is a table where people play with nothing but gray, unpainted models and next to them are players who have their models painted in nice colors. In which game would you rather observe and which models you'd rather take a close look at?
However, there was a tournament in my country that allowed unpainted or partially painted armies to participate, but it was in a separate category and you were not allowed to position in the top 10 in the overall score.
How you play in your private, I don't care.
In other words, would you choose to play Basketball at high levels and then demanded the baskets were put lower because you can't jump that high? Doesn't make sense, right?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 09:35:42
Eldar- 4436 pts
). Hobby is to each what he makes it to be.
Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand