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Martel732 wrote:

Yeah, that's false. There is a price point for every unit where it is neither autotake nor autopass.

And that price point is entirely dependent upon every other unit in the ruleset. Deliberately removing the dependent variables in this particular equation as Crimson demands (other units) means you're guaranteed to draw a conclusion that's hilariously wrong.

Reemule wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Because changing the price of one unit doesnt rectify any of the underlying structural issues with the army, and making a change for no reason other than to make a change is exquisitely bad management.

This is nonsense. Units can only be bad relative to their cost. If unit is bad, making it cheaper can make it good. It might not be the most inspired fix, but it is definitely much better than no fix at all.

While I want to agree with you, due to soup you are wrong. Soup makes it so the problem might not be just adjusting the points for GK models, but points for several other models. Like Strike squads. If you adjust them to 16PPM (about where I think they should be in a monocodex game... Well look at all the options you just invalidated for all those other forces..

Its a huge rabbit hole topic that I know your aware of, but for what your saying to be right, you actually talking about Guardsmen getting repointed, and then Conscripts, and then scouts, and then Tac, and then Intercessors, and then Strike squads.

Now it doesn't feel like a minor tweek...

Came here to basically say this, but you've already articulated it.

Totally agree, you can't just make GK cheap and say 'job done'.

Martel732 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Karol wrote:
This. Lets use a non GK example. Possessed are considered to be a bad unit. What if they costs half the points, how many chaos armies would use them? What if CSM were 9-10pts? what if a dire avanger cost less then a eldar guardian?

If you make a unit too cheap it doesn't make the rest of the army good, it just makes the unit too cheap. You'll see a bunch of them, perhaps as allies or perhaps even filling out whole lists. It'd be like the old gladius lists where you threw tactical marines at the table because they were basically free.

GK need to be as expensive/more expensive and stronger, they are supposed to be elites not orks.

That doesn't work in 8th. Elites fail as a concept in 8th. There is just not enough upside in the base mechanics. Cheaper is better.

This is not entirely true. Elites just can't be your entire army. Having some elite elements, supported by cheap chaff does very well. Take Deathwatch for example. If GKs get to a good place, I could see them competing as a detachment alongside a knight, guard and an assassin.

I look at usage rates and win rates and get a pretty good idea of what needs to happen. It's pretty clear that 21 and 13 are not the correct numbers for strike dummies and tactical dum dums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Karol wrote:
This. Lets use a non GK example. Possessed are considered to be a bad unit. What if they costs half the points, how many chaos armies would use them? What if CSM were 9-10pts? what if a dire avanger cost less then a eldar guardian?

If you make a unit too cheap it doesn't make the rest of the army good, it just makes the unit too cheap. You'll see a bunch of them, perhaps as allies or perhaps even filling out whole lists. It'd be like the old gladius lists where you threw tactical marines at the table because they were basically free.

GK need to be as expensive/more expensive and stronger, they are supposed to be elites not orks.

That doesn't work in 8th. Elites fail as a concept in 8th. There is just not enough upside in the base mechanics. Cheaper is better.

This is not entirely true. Elites just can't be your entire army. Having some elite elements, supported by cheap chaff does very well. Take Deathwatch for example. If GKs get to a good place, I could see them competing as a detachment alongside a knight, guard and an assassin.

Deathwatch is propped up by their ammo, not their armor or anything else that makes them "elite". There really is no benefit to elites outside of some possible benefit in ITC format. Elites are a failure in 8th for the most part. There are a few exceptions like Bullgryns, Grotesques, etc.

Wayniac wrote:
Latest community article says how the Big FAQ will be after Adepticon (which we all knew) but this part in particular has me thinking:

Link to the article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/19/coming-soon-warhammer-40000-2019-faqs-update-1gw-homepage-post-2/

The good news is that Warhammer 40,000 is in a pretty good place at the moment, so there won’t be any seismic changes, just a handful of balancing tweaks.

Would you agree with that sentiment? Why or why not?

Sales are strong; there are more tournaments than there used to be and they tend to sell out. They will know more than we do what footfall in their stores is like but in the ones local to me the managers say it is good. Taken from a very broad perspective I think they are entitled to say that.

To games workshop, sales of warhammer 40,000 is equivalent to health of warhammer 40,000, being the profit-based business that sells the game.

In that light, 40k is pretty much perfect. Games workshop is among the most profitable businesses in Britain, which is...frankly astounding considering that "niche" is an extremely charitable term when it comes to their product. From a "kids these days" perspective you'd think 50+$ boxes of unpainted miniatures you have to glue together and paint yourself so you can play a tabletop game with handmade terrain would be about as relevant as a print newspaper sold out of a video rental store marketed towards users of Myspace.

LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

I know people want 40k to be a game it isn't meant to be, but even so - it is actually in a pretty good state relatively speaking.

This thread was always going this way, but balance is both relative and not a priority for many people. I really don't get why people who think balance is a top priority are still here in all honesty.

Reemule wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Wants to use a wrench as a hammer, blames manufacturer that the wrench doesn't do a good job.

To be clear, If your a wrench manufacter, and the vast majority of your customers are using it for a Hammer, and you keep calling it a wrench.. who is the failure here again?

Still you, no matter how many weasel words you use to illegitimately bolster your *ahem* 'point'.

It's in a super good place
>record sales
>record tournament attendance
>statistically armies are getting more and more balanced
If they keep the pace with incremental rules changes and model line updates 40k will keep exploding in popularity. It's nice being able to see different armies each week competing and even winning tournaments and just knowing the fact that GW is constantly working on balance is such a huge improvement over where they used to be

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

To be fair, it couldn't be doing so well money-wise if it wasn't doing something good game-wise.
Are there still balance issues? You betcha, but it's far more balanced than so, so many of the prior editions.

I think the biggest issue people struggle with is that they really hoped 8E was going to be the end-all, be-all edition for balance.
And honestly, I feel that is always going to result in a let-down. There are just too many factions/models and rules to ever have an air-tight balance 40K edition.

But 8E has certainly made it closer than any prior edition and continues to tweak for said balance. Enough people recognize this that the sales have been positively impacted.
Ergo, 40K is in a pretty good place

-

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

To a fish, a flood is a real estate boom.

To a company, a record-breakingly profitable game is an incredibly healthy one.

Okay. So 8th edition is IMO the best edition since 2nd. But that's where my praise begins and ends. The Imperium gets way too much and the Xenos get way too little and Chaos are jammed in the middle. This is the reason I've not played since beginning of 6th edition until recently coming back, and it's why I'll probably lose interest again soon. It would behove them to remember they have created a game without protagonists. And indeed, everyone will pick their own protagonists of this story, since literally every faction is varying shades of black to dark gray with no white. As for what they've been doing while I've been gone... From the discussions I've had with people who still play around my parts (which is distinctly less than it was when I took a break) it seems like Custodes is universally hated. Not only is it antithetical to established lore to have Custodes running around the galaxy and fighting like an army, the models are pretty lame and they're unfun to play and underwhelming to play against too. Imperial Knights are universally disliked too. (By "universally" I mean both Imperium players and players of other factions or both) Primaris Space Marines have one little camp that loves them and a slightly bigger camp who vehemently hates many of its units.

So to me it seems that while they are writing some decent rules for a change, the product they are releasing is monotonous and uninspiring, and many armies feel like they're completely forgotten by GW, which leads to the game hemorrhaging players of said armies. Get ready to see a lot of Space Marines vs. Guard vs. other Space Marines games, they'll be the only ones left soon.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

To a fish, a flood is a real estate boom.

To a company, a record-breakingly profitable game is an incredibly healthy one.

It is record-breakingly profitable, because GW is supporting it - or in spite of that?

Custodes are not at all universally hated. I some people who dislike playing AGAINST if that's what you mean. But generally they've been extremely popular from my experience.

The thing is too, releases are always going to skew towards the factions that sell. Marines sell. It's the heroic human trope. Doesn't matter whether they're really the good guys, to a lay person they superficially are the faction they'll identify most in terms of the fantasy they want to fulfill.

Marines will always get the most love, it simply doesn't make sense to treat all factions equally.

 Stux wrote:


Came here to basically say this, but you've already articulated it.

Totally agree, you can't just make GK cheap and say 'job done'.

But a point drop can be done. We are talking here about an esotheric change of rules, that requires GW doing stuff they will not do, they don't know how to do, they tried to do and failed etc. It is like expecting a drunk stop drinking.

As for 17-18pts strikes creating game breaking imbalance, even if I used them as just an example, which unit would they invalidate? Not primaris, no DW vets, technicaly tacticals, but tacticals are bad because scouts exist. People wouldn't be taking IG instead of the loyal 32. 17pts is still a lot of points and those 17pts still have 1w and GK rules.

If you make a unit too cheap it doesn't make the rest of the army good, it just makes the unit too cheap. You'll see a bunch of them, perhaps as allies or perhaps even filling out whole lists. It'd be like the old gladius lists where you threw tactical marines at the table because they were basically free.

GK need to be as expensive/more expensive and stronger, they are supposed to be elites not orks.

Now I have my doubts that an orc cost 17pts per model or 40 pts per nob. Elite stuff only works this edition when it is fast, above avarge in melee and shoting and resilient. GK don't have have speed, they can't have resiliance, because our kits don't come with stormshields, so we are stuck with normal marine saves and you can't be very deadly in melee with 1A, 2 if you dual wield. Imagine you had orcs that cost 17pts and had 2A each, how horde do you think the army would be?

This is not entirely true. Elites just can't be your entire army. Having some elite elements, supported by cheap chaff does very well. Take Deathwatch for example. If GKs get to a good place, I could see them competing as a detachment alongside a knight, guard and an assassin.

That 20pts strike is the chaff of GK. Do you want to know how much a termintor or paladin squad costs ? Also if you take knights and IG, there is zero a GK detachments brings to the mix, both of does don't do better, or which you couldn't get from other imperial armies. And it is not just a bit worse. I know people tried to run knights in suprem detachments, alongside IG and imperial knights, but in the end the conclusion was that it is just better to run IG+IK, and skip on the NDK GMs.

Karol wrote:

Now I have my doubts that an orc cost 17pts per model or 40 pts per nob. Elite stuff only works this edition when it is fast, above avarge in melee and shoting and resilient. GK don't have have speed, they can't have resiliance, because our kits don't come with stormshields, so we are stuck with normal marine saves and you can't be very deadly in melee with 1A, 2 if you dual wield. Imagine you had orcs that cost 17pts and had 2A each, how horde do you think the army would be?

Now, I agree with ya on most of your points that GK should be cheaper, but I do find it funny that the best ork models are indeed 17 pts each with 2A.... Lootas and Tankbustas. Both of them come with insanely good guns though, so they make up for it, and can use Grot Shields to be even more resiliant, but still, it's 17 points per model for T4 6+ SV orks.

Pleasestop 773029 10385987 wrote:

This is like, the 50th topic you've derailed with your "GK suxxors" speeches. Everyone on this forum knows how you feel, so please stop. Find a cheaper, or even free hobby -- your on the internet you can find one, or repaint/rebash your minis into a different Space Marine army already.

I dont have the money to buy a new army. All my money is stuck in w40k, the next money I may spend on something hobby maybe will come in 2 years, that is if I don't get sick or don't need stuff for school. I did ask people around my store to use GK as counts as, there is no army that has anything that works or looks like GK termintors and I have 15 of those. I have 5 strikes, and again there is no army with simiular arment. DW are close, if I cut off the halabards and sword, but the incinerators and psycannon don't have an equivalent. But anyway, If it wasn't me bringing this up would it somehow be different? Am I somehow wrong that GK need a fix and GW doesn't seem to know how to do it or even if to do it at all, if we consider the game is more then fine ?

I don't know what a suxors is, so I wouldn't have called GK that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:

Karol wrote:

Now I have my doubts that an orc cost 17pts per model or 40 pts per nob. Elite stuff only works this edition when it is fast, above avarge in melee and shoting and resilient. GK don't have have speed, they can't have resiliance, because our kits don't come with stormshields, so we are stuck with normal marine saves and you can't be very deadly in melee with 1A, 2 if you dual wield. Imagine you had orcs that cost 17pts and had 2A each, how horde do you think the army would be?

Now, I agree with ya on most of your points that GK should be cheaper, but I do find it funny that the best ork models are indeed 17 pts each with 2A.... Lootas and Tankbustas. Both of them come with insanely good guns though, so they make up for it, and can use Grot Shields to be even more resiliant, but still, it's 17 points per model for T4 6+ SV orks.

I can accept a 21 pts Strike if his basic weapon is going to be an auto cannon. I think I could agree to that.

Karol wrote:

I can accept a 21 pts Strike if his basic weapon is going to be an auto cannon. I think I could agree to that.

LoftyS wrote:
Okay. So 8th edition is IMO the best edition since 2nd. But that's where my praise begins and ends. The Imperium gets way too much and the Xenos get way too little and Chaos are jammed in the middle. This is the reason I've not played since beginning of 6th edition until recently coming back, and it's why I'll probably lose interest again soon. It would behove them to remember they have created a game without protagonists. And indeed, everyone will pick their own protagonists of this story, since literally every faction is varying shades of black to dark gray with no white. As for what they've been doing while I've been gone... From the discussions I've had with people who still play around my parts (which is distinctly less than it was when I took a break) it seems like Custodes is universally hated. Not only is it antithetical to established lore to have Custodes running around the galaxy and fighting like an army, the models are pretty lame and they're unfun to play and underwhelming to play against too. Imperial Knights are universally disliked too. (By "universally" I mean both Imperium players and players of other factions or both) Primaris Space Marines have one little camp that loves them and a slightly bigger camp who vehemently hates many of its units.

So to me it seems that while they are writing some decent rules for a change, the product they are releasing is monotonous and uninspiring, and many armies feel like they're completely forgotten by GW, which leads to the game hemorrhaging players of said armies. Get ready to see a lot of Space Marines vs. Guard vs. other Space Marines games, they'll be the only ones left soon.

Chaos vs Imperium has always been the center of the game right? I mean I agree its not my favorite part but its the center



It would be cool to see a box of Nids vs Harliquins, or Tau vs Orks or something. How did Necrons vs Ad mech do?


A cool eldar box would be Ynarri vs Coven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Karol shut up. Or go start another threat to bitch about grey knights.

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop 773029 10385987 wrote:

This is like, the 50th topic you've derailed with your "GK suxxors" speeches. Everyone on this forum knows how you feel, so please stop. Find a cheaper, or even free hobby -- your on the internet you can find one, or repaint/rebash your minis into a different Space Marine army already.

I dont have the money to buy a new army. All my money is stuck in w40k, the next money I may spend on something hobby maybe will come in 2 years, that is if I don't get sick or don't need stuff for school. I did ask people around my store to use GK as counts as, there is no army that has anything that works or looks like GK termintors and I have 15 of those. I have 5 strikes, and again there is no army with simiular arment. DW are close, if I cut off the halabards and sword, but the incinerators and psycannon don't have an equivalent. But anyway, If it wasn't me bringing this up would it somehow be different? Am I somehow wrong that GK need a fix and GW doesn't seem to know how to do it or even if to do it at all, if we consider the game is more then fine ?

I don't know what a suxors is, so I wouldn't have called GK that.

Literally stop buying 40k then if all of your money is tied up in I or like, pop off your weapons that you can't use and get some left over bits from a friend's bit box. If no one you play with has any extra bits then they are as annoyed with you as I am.

But GK terminators, painted black are Deathwatch terminators with stormbolter and sword. A halbred can easily be made into a power maul.

Incinerators are heavy flamers Or Flamers.

If you didn't bring it up, no one else would, because GK are the exception that proves the rule and honestly arent as bad off as most armies were last edition.

Reading and writing are free, as are a ton of online games.

Competitive diversity is overall very high. There are a couple notable outliers currently defining the very top end and one notable outlier at the very bottom, but that's a pretty impressive state competitively speaking. At this point the biggest problem seems to honestly just be that there are people that insist on seeing soup as a problem when it overall seems to be putting more variety into the game than its taking away.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

To be fair, it couldn't be doing so well money-wise if it wasn't doing something good game-wise.
Are there still balance issues? You betcha, but it's far more balanced than so, so many of the prior editions.

I think the biggest issue people struggle with is that they really hoped 8E was going to be the end-all, be-all edition for balance.
And honestly, I feel that is always going to result in a let-down. There are just too many factions/models and rules to ever have an air-tight balance 40K edition.

But 8E has certainly made it closer than any prior edition and continues to tweak for said balance. Enough people recognize this that the sales have been positively impacted.
Ergo, 40K is in a pretty good place

-

Well all we really want is an honest attempt. Infantry at 4 ppm while a termagant and a conscript is 4ppm is NOT an honest attempt. DW ammo is not an honest attempt. I agree the game is probably the most balanced it has been except perhaps the prevalence of double moves and free actions (possibly the most busted stuff to ever exist in this game) saying your game is more balanced than previous editions of 40k isn't saying too much. Their tweaks IMO have done more harm than good. The game was the most fun during index 40k.

Look at an army like GK - how hard is it to drop all their units by 20% so they can compete? It takes practically no time at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - Some people get it. The game is making tons of money so it's in a good place. Balance be damned.

To a fish, a flood is a real estate boom.

To a company, a record-breakingly profitable game is an incredibly healthy one.

It is record-breakingly profitable, because GW is supporting it - or in spite of that?

Can anyone actually answer this question? I don't even think it's possible at this point. GW's clientele is a marvel of humanity.

The Imperium is the protagonist in GW's eyes.

What 40K needs is equal support being given to the antagonists.

I think the best value from GW's statement is the amount of butt hurt its released for a few. Cathartic really.

I would tend to agree but I don;t play that often these days

IMO It is a million times better than 7th ed and better than quite a few of the proceeding edtions.
Thye are engaging with the Community, not just about rules and abalance but in general with articles which are often informative or fun or sometimes both. This gives me the warm glow of an old man looking back at glory days.....
They are releasing FAQs updates etc.

On the negative side - the focuss is still way to much on Marines (and the wrong ones - lets see stuff for someone other than the Wolves or Angels for five minutes)
Prices - especially for characters are just insane

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop 773029 10385987 wrote:

This is like, the 50th topic you've derailed with your "GK suxxors" speeches. Everyone on this forum knows how you feel, so please stop. Find a cheaper, or even free hobby -- your on the internet you can find one, or repaint/rebash your minis into a different Space Marine army already.

I dont have the money to buy a new army. All my money is stuck in w40k, the next money I may spend on something hobby maybe will come in 2 years, that is if I don't get sick or don't need stuff for school. I did ask people around my store to use GK as counts as, there is no army that has anything that works or looks like GK termintors and I have 15 of those. I have 5 strikes, and again there is no army with simiular arment. DW are close, if I cut off the halabards and sword, but the incinerators and psycannon don't have an equivalent. But anyway, If it wasn't me bringing this up would it somehow be different? Am I somehow wrong that GK need a fix and GW doesn't seem to know how to do it or even if to do it at all, if we consider the game is more then fine ?

I don't know what a suxors is, so I wouldn't have called GK that.

Literally stop buying 40k then if all of your money is tied up in I or like, pop off your weapons that you can't use and get some left over bits from a friend's bit box. If no one you play with has any extra bits then they are as annoyed with you as I am.

But GK terminators, painted black are Deathwatch terminators with stormbolter and sword. A halbred can easily be made into a power maul.

Incinerators are heavy flamers Or Flamers.

If you didn't bring it up, no one else would, because GK are the exception that proves the rule and honestly arent as bad off as most armies were last edition.

Reading and writing are free, as are a ton of online games.

Your local scene sucks Karol, all of us understand that much.

But this is an easy fix for counts as.

I can see why they think the game is in a good place because sales are good and the playerbase is growing.

I just wish they'd realize how much more money they'd make if marines were worth using.

Martel732 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Karol wrote:
This. Lets use a non GK example. Possessed are considered to be a bad unit. What if they costs half the points, how many chaos armies would use them? What if CSM were 9-10pts? what if a dire avanger cost less then a eldar guardian?

If you make a unit too cheap it doesn't make the rest of the army good, it just makes the unit too cheap. You'll see a bunch of them, perhaps as allies or perhaps even filling out whole lists. It'd be like the old gladius lists where you threw tactical marines at the table because they were basically free.

GK need to be as expensive/more expensive and stronger, they are supposed to be elites not orks.

That doesn't work in 8th. Elites fail as a concept in 8th. There is just not enough upside in the base mechanics. Cheaper is better.

Completely false. The design space is there for the stats, but the units aren't capable for their own rules. You can only make a unit so cheap that you step on the toes of everyone else, like Skitarii Infantry vs Guard infantry already pushing that boundary REALLY hard.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.

8th Ed is just as bad as 7th but in the opposite direction.

The rules are overly simple to the point of being immersion breaking, and provide tons of wtf moments in the game. At the same time they are counter intuitive for no reason (I’m looking at you dice roll modifiers) and a logistical nightmare to keep track of.

Psychic phase is boring and predictable

The cover system is broken and needs more than half a page to fully flesh out this idea

The morale phase is so useless and boring it might as well not exist. Could have just kept the old system but not have every army immune to leadership like they did in the past.

Command points, good idea. Poorly implemented. Command points should be generated throughout the game by capturing objectives and destroying enemy units. Stratagems should be one use only.

Buff auras are a terrible idea that exacerbated the issues people originally had with Death Stars.

Killing off the independent character rules was unnecessary. Now we just have to deal with dumb as feth targeting restrictions.

I don’t know who decided to make dice modifiers work the way they do but it’s needlessly convoluted. It makes no sense to do it the way they did.

Doing away with USR is the worst possible way to organize a game. Now we just have pages and pages of the same rule written slightly differently for no reason at all. From a logistical stand point this makes no sense.

Then we have Primaris ruining the lore of 40k, they should have been left on the cutting room floor with AoS. Just pure garbage through and through.