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the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No.

I hate e-books.

An online page with points costs would be neat, but I would not want the whole book train to go digital.

You know you can just print them out if you want something physical?

You know you can just scan them if you want something digital?

Why yes, that is what I did in 5th edition. I actually sliced up the mini-rulebook from the starter set and scanned it all in for my own use! Even OCRed it so I could search it. Good times. And I could actually open the PDF!

Its hard to wrap your head around but according to GW the great majority of its customers don't play the game. They're hobbyists and collectors. That type of customer doesn't tend to want an e-book. E-books are largely for gamers. I don't see GW going exclusively to E-books.

I think GW should consider a subscription based service structured something like audible, where a monthly fee gives you access to all the rules portions of every codex with any and all updates and a credit to apply towards purchasing a black library novel or a full codex or white dwarf.

This would be a very un-GW move, because they have such a mindset of their products having an absolute value and don't like to do discounts. While the people who buy more than 12 books a year would benefit more than the person who just buys one codex every couple of years there is a clear value there that serves GW's greater goal of exposing people to more of their books and codexes to then drive them to buy more miniatures or more books.

I don't like the idea of it only being a subscription based service. You will be stuck on the latest rules and be unable to reference old rules for inspiration (for house rules etc). How many times in these forums do we bring up ideas and rules from 2nd edition, the Wargear Book for example. If it was a digital subscription based model how available will today's rules be in 20 years, 10 years, or even 5 years.
Do we have to read the rules on the small screens of our phones (if you have enough storage on it), or do we have to spend hundreds of dollars keeping up to date with an iPad like device. Even if they are a permanent download, hard-drives fail and it is very expensive to recover that data. It already is extremely expensive in my part of the world.

The idea of just printing out a digital book is also a bad idea, because of the cost. It just makes an expensive low quality book. You may as well buy a professionally made physical book.

A subscription based service in addition to physical books, I could support. But they should leave physical books as a valid option.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Its hard to wrap your head around but according to GW the great majority of its customers don't play the game. They're hobbyists and collectors. That type of customer doesn't tend to want an e-book. E-books are largely for gamers. I don't see GW going exclusively to E-books.

I think GW should consider a subscription based service structured something like audible, where a monthly fee gives you access to all the rules portions of every codex with any and all updates and a credit to apply towards purchasing a black library novel or a full codex or white dwarf.

This would be a very un-GW move, because they have such a mindset of their products having an absolute value and don't like to do discounts. While the people who buy more than 12 books a year would benefit more than the person who just buys one codex every couple of years there is a clear value there that serves GW's greater goal of exposing people to more of their books and codexes to then drive them to buy more miniatures or more books.

Subscribtion would suck. You wouldn't buy anymore rules for you. Just permission to use while you pay. Stop paying, stop playing. And if GW decides to remove some rules you can't then anymore play. You could then literally have your miniatures also become useless unable to play the game you bought them for.

I'd rather have electronic books AND a rules reference website

They'd have to be much cheaper than the printed books and, more importantly, translated to german to make me buy them. Right now the e-codizes and books don't offer anything I can't get through other ways. I would have bought some E-Books from GW, but not in English and for only 5€ less than the actual book

I have been converting my library of game books to electronic versions over the past few years. Even so, I still enjoy having physical copies for casual reading. If it’s possible, I prefer to get the copies through legal channels, as it helps support the company.

You would think that I’d have electronic copies of GW’s books, but I don’t. Quite simply, I don’t trust their electronic offerings. E-pubs are ugly, and the “enhanced” versions aren’t self-contained documents that I can access across devices - that and I don’t expect that GW will support the format a few years down the road (does anyone have the 6E/7E electronic versions to prove this wrong?). Frankly, If GW won’t support PDF versions, I’m not interested in what they do provide electronically as I worry down the road I won’t be able to access it.

Why not both? Like, we can have good digital versions that are updated and good for quickly checking rules AND physical books that are just nice to have. It's what DnD has with DnDbeyond now.

I'd also like to address the "complaint" that having physical books is a lot to carry.
While not untrue, I can say from personal experience that it isn't that big a deal. I didn't have a car for years and biked, yes biked as-is bicycle not motorcycle, to my LGS

I did this will a full case of miniatures AND an over the shoulder bag with 3-4 hardback books. If I can do that for about 10 miles to and from my LGS, it should not be a big deal to carry 2-3 in your CAR.

However, I certainly respect other's personal preference for digital media. It isn't to my taste, but as long as you have your rules and can pull them up QUICKLY in a game when needed, I have no issues. I just find it far more convenience and ...tangible... to have the physical copy for myself.
I always have and likely always will.

Although recently I have been relying on online-resources for one-off add-ons. For example, I am adding a Supreme Command of 3 Dawn-Eagle Shield Captains to my DW army. I am not going to buy a $40 book to "lug around" when all I need is a single datasheet (which comes in the box) and a list of Strats and just the rules that pertain to the Shield Captains themselves. I have no other Custodes in the list

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why not both? Like, we can have good digital versions that are updated and good for quickly checking rules AND physical books that are just nice to have.

Yep, this is the correct answer to this thread

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All industry shows that within a few years Eformat will be the norm.

Once that happens, print to order will kick in. If you desire a print book, pay extra and get it Printed.

Reemule wrote:
All industry shows that within a few years Eformat will be the norm.

Once that happens, print to order will kick in. If you desire a print book, pay extra and get it Printed.

Which is fine, so long as "pay extra" actually means "pay the same or less than now for the Printed book, even though its digital counterpart is half the price"
Because honestly, digital books are just copy-pasted data, which should be FREE after a while

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I can carry all my books on my iPad, the Digital Deluxe editions automatically update, which is pretty important for a game that updates multiple times each year.

I like books too, but at a certain point I just recognize the convenience, lack of clutter, and ease of access win.

Honestly, I've thrown out so many physical game books over the years I'm just over it, I have very few physical game books these days. I think it comes down to my 7th ed Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, and that's about it I think. Even those provided supplemental PDF versions of the book that I have on my computer that I probably use more than the books themselves.

The fact GW don't update the normal epubs with errata is shameful IMHO.

 Galef wrote:

Reemule wrote:
All industry shows that within a few years Eformat will be the norm.

Once that happens, print to order will kick in. If you desire a print book, pay extra and get it Printed.

Which is fine, so long as "pay extra" actually means "pay the same or less than now for the Printed book, even though its digital counterpart is half the price"
Because honestly, digital books are just copy-pasted data, which should be FREE after a while

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Actually, it looks a little more. Looking at newest battletech book, it was $4.61 for the Kindle, and it was $13.95 for the print. If you want Print, its always going to be around. Just be prepared to pay for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I can carry all my books on my iPad, the Digital Deluxe editions automatically update, which is pretty important for a game that updates multiple times each year.

I like books too, but at a certain point I just recognize the convenience, lack of clutter, and ease of access win.

Honestly, I've thrown out so many physical game books over the years I'm just over it, I have very few physical game books these days. I think it comes down to my 7th ed Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, and that's about it I think. Even those provided supplemental PDF versions of the book that I have on my computer that I probably use more than the books themselves.

I 100% agree with TPT on something. Its how many game books I've tossed. Every rulebook and codex from RT till 4th I owned at some point, and tossed. I can only recall selling RT for 50 bucks on ebay. The rest got the Dumpster. Thousands of dollars. A good chunk of a tree once you toss in all the WDs also.

I only buy Eformat these days.

I also agree with bacon cat. GW should auto update all epubs with FaQs. The game would be so much better with a living ruleset that was updated on the schedule.

 Absolute_Maniac wrote:
Does anyone think GW should drop physical codes all together and instead switch to an online repository where they can be updated with the new rules changes?

Kind of. They could split the rules from the rest of the book and give more space for art, painting demonstrations/guides, and lore in the main books.

 Melissia wrote:

 Absolute_Maniac wrote:
Does anyone think GW should drop physical codes all together and instead switch to an online repository where they can be updated with the new rules changes?

Kind of. They could split the rules from the rest of the book and give more space for art, painting demonstrations/guides, and lore in the main books.

But they won't do that. Very few people are going to pay for "art" and lore only. GW knows this.
I'm all for the rules being posted on the website for free. That really should be how it is. GW has always claimed they are a miniature company, not a rules one. Posting free rules would prove that.

But at the same time, having hard copies with both rules and pretty pictures for those who want them (like me) should really be a win-win for GW.
I am still confused why this isn't the norm yet.

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 Galef wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Absolute_Maniac wrote:
Does anyone think GW should drop physical codes all together and instead switch to an online repository where they can be updated with the new rules changes?

Kind of. They could split the rules from the rest of the book and give more space for art, painting demonstrations/guides, and lore in the main books.

But they won't do that. Very few people are going to pay for "art" and lore only. GW knows this.
I'm all for the rules being posted on the website for free. That really should be how it is. GW has always claimed they are a miniature company, not a rules one. Posting free rules would prove that.

But at the same time, having hard copies with both rules and pretty pictures for those who want them (like me) should really be a win-win for GW.
I am still confused why this isn't the norm yet.

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It would be so easy. Dead Tree Carcass for lore, art and v1.0 of the rules. The latest rules can be found in a simple HTML document to download for free. It's that simple!

I'd pay for codex-sized lore/art/painting book for my Sisters of Battle or Orks. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. But there are some people who would not pay for anything that's not related to lore or miniatures.

I do both, and I love the dead tree book, but digital is the way to go for a gamer. I'm pretty sure anyone who says they can look up the page they want faster in a book (or several books at the table), have never actually tried using an IPad. The enhanced editions of the Codices link rules, points, special abilities, etc. right through the data sheets; and they trim down a lot of the lore and fluff pages that aren't useful in a game.

 shiner wrote:
I'm pretty sure anyone who says they can look up the page they want faster in a book (or several books at the table), have never actually tried using an IPad. The enhanced editions of the Codices link rules, points, special abilities, etc. right through the data sheets; and they trim down a lot of the lore and fluff pages that aren't useful in a game.

Speaking from personal experience, I can say with confidence that I have yet to bet beaten to the relevant rule in a book by someone using a tablet/phone. I almost always have the page open seconds before the person with a device has the "page" loaded
Admittedly, however, I do put sticky-note tabs in my books and am fairly meticulous in knowing where a rule typically is, so I tend to almost always just flip to it instantly

But that highlights my point about personal preference. GW should not dictate what the preferred media is, the player should be able to decide this.
99 people preferring digital media doesn't really matter to the 1 person that prefers the physical book, nor should it impact that preference.

"Paying more" for that convenience is also a very relative concept. Codices were around $30 before being hardback and consistently $40-$50 since
If hard copies remain $40-$50 while digital becomes cheaper and cheaper, it's all relative. I'm still buying the book, which hasn't really increases in price even though there is now a cheaper alternative
That is the way it should be.

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I'm sure some Roman told everyone that the time needed to scroll the scroll to the right section made the scroll the better choice as it allowed contemplation, or something else.

 Galef wrote:
Very few people are going to pay for "art" and lore only. GW knows this.

Not that I'm one to argue codexes should go away, but isn't that basically what a Black Library book is? I think a decent chunk of people would purchase a compendium of all the lore and concept art related to their preferred faction.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Absolute_Maniac wrote:
Does anyone think GW should drop physical codes all together and instead switch to an online repository where they can be updated with the new rules changes?

Kind of. They could split the rules from the rest of the book and give more space for art, painting demonstrations/guides, and lore in the main books.

But they won't do that. Very few people are going to pay for "art" and lore only. GW knows this.
I'm all for the rules being posted on the website for free. That really should be how it is. GW has always claimed they are a miniature company, not a rules one. Posting free rules would prove that.

But at the same time, having hard copies with both rules and pretty pictures for those who want them (like me) should really be a win-win for GW.
I am still confused why this isn't the norm yet.

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It would be so easy. Dead Tree Carcass for lore, art and v1.0 of the rules. The latest rules can be found in a simple HTML document to download for free. It's that simple!

thats what we have dude, it's called the FAQ/Errata

Dropping books, aka A Revenue Stream, simply won’t happen unless they can somehow flip it into a subscription. Even AoS went back to army books after the LOL NO POINTS BUT FREE period. They’re simply too lucrative as they ensure every player needs to buy them as well as models.

 Galef wrote:

 shiner wrote:
I'm pretty sure anyone who says they can look up the page they want faster in a book (or several books at the table), have never actually tried using an IPad. The enhanced editions of the Codices link rules, points, special abilities, etc. right through the data sheets; and they trim down a lot of the lore and fluff pages that aren't useful in a game.

Speaking from personal experience, I can say with confidence that I have yet to bet beaten to the relevant rule in a book by someone using a tablet/phone. I almost always have the page open seconds before the person with a device has the "page" loaded
Admittedly, however, I do put sticky-note tabs in my books and am fairly meticulous in knowing where a rule typically is, so I tend to almost always just flip to it instantly

But that highlights my point about personal preference. GW should not dictate what the preferred media is, the player should be able to decide this.
99 people preferring digital media doesn't really matter to the 1 person that prefers the physical book, nor should it impact that preference.

"Paying more" for that convenience is also a very relative concept. Codices were around $30 before being hardback and consistently $40-$50 since
If hard copies remain $40-$50 while digital becomes cheaper and cheaper, it's all relative. I'm still buying the book, which hasn't really increases in price even though there is now a cheaper alternative
That is the way it should be.

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Agreed - thats even if they can find the relevant rule or page or are not relying ona third party download which is not always accurate.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Dropping books, aka A Revenue Stream, simply won’t happen unless they can somehow flip it into a subscription. Even AoS went back to army books after the LOL NO POINTS BUT FREE period. They’re simply too lucrative as they ensure every player needs to buy them as well as models.

Funnily enough, Paizo has seen a lot of success with their subscription service... In which they just ship you all of the books they print in addition to adding the pdf to your account.

Given the split of opinion in this thread (and all the other threads on this subject), perhaps GW have it right offering both

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed - thats even if they can find the relevant rule or page or are not relying ona third party download which is not always accurate.

You can set whatever bookmarks you want in the eBooks and iBooks will even give a header preview of the page. Anyhow, luddite mileage may vary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Given the split of opinion in this thread (and all the other threads on this subject), perhaps GW have it right offering both

Easy there Cpt. Reasonable.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Given the split of opinion in this thread (and all the other threads on this subject), perhaps GW have it right offering both

Easy there Cpt. Reasonable.

(I realise it's not the Dakka way)

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No.

I hate e-books.

An online page with points costs would be neat, but I would not want the whole book train to go digital.

You know you can just print them out if you want something physical?

You know you can just scan them if you want something digital?

Wonder which one is a lot more work...