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Really I think part of the issue with the the new films is that while there are lots of parts of the old EU people didn't like, or even outright hated, there were lots of parts people really enjoyed.

Mara Jade doesn't seem to exist anymore. The Solo Twins are just down to Jacen, and Ren's personal conflict isn't nearly as compelling as Jacen's while being equally tired and angsty. The First Order isn't as fascinating as the Imperial Remnant of Thrawn or Jagged Fel, and the new heroes aren't bad (I rather like Fin and Poe, Rose I could take or leave) they aren't Wedge Antilles and the original New Republic crew either.

I'm sure people could debate specific points, but when Disney took over a lot hoped that they'd remake the old EU by throwing out all the bad and keeping some of the good while injecting new ideas.

None of that happened. Instead of a refined better EU that built off what was tried and true, we got a complete rehash. I don't hate it as much as some, but I certainly don't feel nearly as attached to it. In terms of depth and scope, it's not remotely on par.

 LordofHats wrote:
Really I think part of the issue with the the new films is that while there are lots of parts of the old EU people didn't like, or even outright hated, there were lots of parts people really enjoyed.

Mara Jade doesn't seem to exist anymore. The Solo Twins are just down to Jacen, and Ren's personal conflict isn't nearly as compelling as Jacen's while being equally tired and angsty. The First Order isn't as fascinating as the Imperial Remnant of Thrawn or Jagged Fel, and the new heroes aren't bad (I rather like Fin and Poe, Rose I could take or leave) they aren't Wedge Antilles and the original New Republic crew either.

I'm sure people could debate specific points, but when Disney took over a lot hoped that they'd remake the old EU by throwing out all the bad and keeping some of the good while injecting new ideas.

None of that happened. Instead of a refined better EU that built off what was tried and true, we got a complete rehash. I don't hate it as much as some, but I certainly don't feel nearly as attached to it. In terms of depth and scope, it's not remotely on par.

The issue with the new films is:
1. The first one was a bad retread of ANH. Literally, it was almost a hack job.
2. The second decided to literally dump on all the previous movies, while being fantastically lame.

The movie going audience did not care or generally even know about the EU and all that.

I said "complete rehash"

I don't even mind point 2, so much as I feel the second movie of a mainline trilogy of a franchise is not the appropriate place to attempt deconstruction. Especially not the lazy half effort TLJ is at being a deconstruction. Honestly, why anyone wanted to deconstruct Star Wars in a Star Wars movie is kind of confusing, since it's basically the last of its genre when it comes to film. Jupiter Ascending probably ensures there won't be much interest in financing big budget space opera outside the franchise for a long time. Maybe forever.

There's always been a serious disconnect between the "deep lore" fans and the general moviegoer. As the former, its often easy to forget that all of that that I love wasn't really there when the original films were the original films. It took a solid decade for the world to get as fleshed out as it was during its peak popularity.

While the prequels have some serious issues and I'll just call the latest movie divisive and move on, I do feel both suffer from fans expecting deep lore universe building when that's not really the point. Clone Wars era has been fleshed out now and lots of people seem to enjoy it quite a bit. Since this thread is likely on its usual path to a lock, I'll just say that one thing I really loved about TLJ is the end of the film left me with the most exciting sandbox to play in I've felt leaving a Star Wars film. I'm actually more concerned that the third film will close that off and I hope there's a decent time skip to give some good room for extended content.

 LunarSol wrote:
There's always been a serious disconnect between the "deep lore" fans and the general moviegoer. As the former, its often easy to forget that all of that that I love wasn't really there when the original films were the original films. It took a solid decade for the world to get as fleshed out as it was during its peak popularity.

While the prequels have some serious issues and I'll just call the latest movie divisive and move on, I do feel both suffer from fans expecting deep lore universe building when that's not really the point. Clone Wars era has been fleshed out now and lots of people seem to enjoy it quite a bit. Since this thread is likely on its usual path to a lock, I'll just say that one thing I really loved about TLJ is the end of the film left me with the most exciting sandbox to play in I've felt leaving a Star Wars film. I'm actually more concerned that the third film will close that off and I hope there's a decent time skip to give some good room for extended content.

You want to get me to see it? Start with a trailer with Ren and Darth Emo with an overlay of Palpatine saying "everything that has happened has been according to my design." Then show a blip of a MASSIVE fleet battle, people shooting at each other, and then a robed figure (Palpatine?) walking towards the camera and doing the Palpatine laugh....

 LunarSol wrote:
I'm actually more concerned that the third film will close that off and I hope there's a decent time skip to give some good room for extended content.

We all know that Episode IX will start with the Falcon being ambushed an hour after leaving Saltworld (it comes to something when I can't remember the name of a planet in a Star Wars movie), this gives a chance to write Leia out early and means the entire trilogy happens over the course of 4-5 days...

 insaniak wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

Actually, do either of the two new Episode films actually use the word 'Sith'? I only watched each of them once and I'm not going to subject myself again...

They don't. And I'm fairly sure it was mentioned elsewhere that Snoke is not a Sith, bu I haven't really been keeping up with the new background stuff.

Kylo Ren mentions them in passing during his let it all die speech to Rey.

"It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels; Let it all die. Rey... I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy!"

Ugh, that little nugget of poo might be thing I hate most about the movie. It's so smug, you can almost see Johnson's face superimposed over Kylo's smirking at the audience.

 LordofHats wrote:
Jupiter Ascending probably ensures there won't be much interest in financing big budget space opera outside the franchise for a long time. Maybe forever.

It may technically be more 'big sci-fi' than 'space opera', but Dune 2020 says hi.

I understand that the EU has it's woefully bad parts, but so far with the new movies Disney hasn't come within miles of matching the EU's great parts. Hell, they haven't even matched even the 'good' parts and characters yet. Everything the First Order has is just bad fan-canon upsizing of stuff from the Original Trilogy. Bigger Death Star, Star Destroyers, At-ATs, SSD's, etc.

Its a bummer that Old Republic stuff won't match Kights of the Old Republic or Tales of the Jedi quality, but at least it would force them to give up the crutch of just apeing the success of the Original trilogy and characters.

Absolutely new stand-alone characters and tech designs, just with that 'Star wars' feel would be awesome.

 Frazzled wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
There's always been a serious disconnect between the "deep lore" fans and the general moviegoer. As the former, its often easy to forget that all of that that I love wasn't really there when the original films were the original films. It took a solid decade for the world to get as fleshed out as it was during its peak popularity.

While the prequels have some serious issues and I'll just call the latest movie divisive and move on, I do feel both suffer from fans expecting deep lore universe building when that's not really the point. Clone Wars era has been fleshed out now and lots of people seem to enjoy it quite a bit. Since this thread is likely on its usual path to a lock, I'll just say that one thing I really loved about TLJ is the end of the film left me with the most exciting sandbox to play in I've felt leaving a Star Wars film. I'm actually more concerned that the third film will close that off and I hope there's a decent time skip to give some good room for extended content.

You want to get me to see it? Start with a trailer with Ren and Darth Emo with an overlay of Palpatine saying "everything that has happened has been according to my design." Then show a blip of a MASSIVE fleet battle, people shooting at each other, and then a robed figure (Palpatine?) walking towards the camera and doing the Palpatine laugh....

By the gods, that might even get ME to go see it opening night!