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So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Because new models that's why!

No, seriously, that's probably the reason why. The Rhino chassis for both loyalists (outside of maaaaybe razorbacks) and traitors have been left behind this edition ruleswise, they're stuck in this weird design space where they can't compete with equivalent tanks from other factions (Leman Russes) and their stratagems require you to max out their number to even do something above average in damage. A chaos predator should have better weaponry and warp forged options at this point and players shouldn't have to rely on FW for that to be an option.

Because Bespoke Rules! Men are more stable platforms than Land Raiders. Plasma is scared of the dark. Flamers can automatically hit hypersonic void-craft flying a mile in the air. 40k 8th edition abandoned what little logic it had left.

 Grimskul wrote:
Because new models that's why!

No, seriously, that's probably the reason why. The Rhino chassis for both loyalists (outside of maaaaybe razorbacks) and traitors have been left behind this edition ruleswise, they're stuck in this weird design space where they can't compete with equivalent tanks from other factions (Leman Russes) and their stratagems require you to max out their number to even do something above average in damage. A chaos predator should have better weaponry and warp forged options at this point and players shouldn't have to rely on FW for that to be an option.

It's not just Predators. I'm at least vaguely irritated by the fact that infantry can ignore the move-fire penalty but tanks don't.

Havocs don't even have heavy armor sets or anything; they're just power armored dudes!

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, Havocs can now move and fire without penalty.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/23/23rd-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-emperors-childrengw-homepage-post-1/

This is kind of, well, disappointing. Why can a guy carrying a heavy weapon shoot better than a tank?

[Also, if a man can carry a lascannon, why does a predator have a lascannon as a main gun?]

Because GW is unwilling to change stats too much or radically alter costs, they need resort to bolt-on schticks like this to try and boost substandard units and move new kits.

Perhaps not the most perfect route, but they might see more use, and I can live with that.

I'm more irritated about a new weapon being introduced to do what the Heavy Bolter is supposed to do. The new gun looks super cool though.

Same way they retconned Grav guns into the game. Annoying is what it is.

I for one love this new rule. Really gives me a reason to buy a ton more havocs for my IW.

I think it's cool. A little weird when tanks don't get it but honestly I'm fine with it.

A nice niche use for the unit and I will def use that new rotor cannon in whole squads for maximum dakka!

meh, at least you guys have tanks. All I have is a transport with a Kannon or a killkannon bolted to the top. I could max out the number of guns on it and it would still suck in comparison to a standard Predator with LC sponsons.

Well i get it, ne modell new rules and stuff. What i really dont get is how they didn't give terminators anything with their new kit.
Havocs having t5 an relentless, and terminators not is just stupidly silly.

stormcraft wrote:
Well i get it, ne modell new rules and stuff. What i really dont get is how they didn't give terminators anything with their new kit.
Havocs having t5 an relentless, and terminators not is just stupidly silly.

We did get a small pricedrop and Chainaxes allowing us to field terminators under 30 ppm though.

Edit: problem is we don't know how the sprue is and therefore how much Chainaxes we get.

It's a great usp for Chaos marines, and with their new shexy rotor-cannons it will help depress the horde meta. Let em have it.

I agree its a little strange that they got these changes. There were a few US marines that heroically wielded heavy weapons on their own, so I guess it makes a bit more sense for a Chaos Marine to have it with a point and shoot weapon than a GSC cultist with the ability to move and fire a MORTAR (edit: they can't actually do this!).

Maybe the Terminator keyword will get a beta rule. They probably should.

It's nice, but it does seem inappropriate. It makes Havocs too similar to oblits. I would prefer if they got a bonus for staying still, like a bonus to range or something. Predators are what should ignore penalties for moving and shooting.

The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

Do the need it? they were better before.

Edit: btw i could live with that i am just wondering.

More more to the point, why does the heavy bolter exist when you can now put 2.66 heavy bolters on one model?

All I know is I am psyched for this. 5 Havocs with 4 of the new rotor cannon is 32 24" S5 AP -1 shots that you can make with +1 to hit (Dark Apostle's prayer), and re-roll 1s or all fails (lord/abby), and even +1 to wound (VOTLW).

And you can double that with Endless Cacophony to 64 shots.

Get fethed, hordes.

Obvious money grab is obvious...."balance".

There is a GSC cult creed (the bladed cog), its INFANTRY also doesnt suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, which is even more ridiculous. One model is 7 pts.

I'm not entirely mad that havocs got this rule (though I do think it's a little silly and there are better bonus rules they could have given them). I'm annoyed that relentless is so rare this edition, because the not being able to move or you shoot worse hurts a lot of units that used to have it. Moving and shooting at full bs should be more common.

Remember when moving with a heavy weapon meant you couldn't shoot at all? Because the idea was that you had to take time to brace your weapon. It made sense then that relentless would be common to make up for that. Now it's a -1 BS penalty that's a slap on the wrist for armies that aren't orks. Just handing relentless out now just makes an already weak drawback even more pointless and they'd might as well remove it altogether at that point (although I already expect it will be removed when 9th rolls around, with how easier shooting gets with each edition).

It was rare for infantry particularly troops. Vehicles generally had the ability to fire some if not all of there weapons at full BS unless they really moved at full speed. Things like bikes and terminators actually functioned a lot better when they could move and shoot.

It's just frustrating that something like a predator or an attack bike is essentially back to being a pillbox and havocs can run and gun not problem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
More more to the point, why does the heavy bolter exist when you can now put 2.66 heavy bolters on one model?

Suspect the new cannon will be 25 points, and given the shorter range, that's about right in comparison to a Heavy Bolter.

Not sure how I feel about the Havocs, rumor has it you can't get ablative wounds on the squad anymore, so it's more like a Long Fangs Pack, 5 guys with 4 Heavy Weapons.

Another big question is if you HAVE to take a heavy weapon on every havoc? Or can you leave some as ablative wounds?

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Another big question is if you HAVE to take a heavy weapon on every havoc? Or can you leave some as ablative wounds?

Champion starts with a flamer, and the other Havocs start with either a Heavy Bolter or a Lascannon. So no ablative wounds under any circumstances

I think it's helpful that a heavy weapons team be optimized for heavy weapon use. The extra toughness and fewer model trade-off is more interesting to me because I like the concept of marines hiding expensive weapons behind less expensive defensively focused bodies.

This does make terminators look silly too. Especially since only 1 in 5 get a heavy weapon, so having relentless would be such a small thing but really help public opinion.

Wayniac wrote:
All I know is I am psyched for this. 5 Havocs with 4 of the new rotor cannon is 32 24" S5 AP -1 shots that you can make with +1 to hit (Dark Apostle's prayer), and re-roll 1s or all fails (lord/abby), and even +1 to wound (VOTLW).

And you can double that with Endless Cacophony to 64 shots.

Get fethed, hordes.

"Hordes"?

That combo will do 25,92 wounds after saves to MEQ's, 15,55 wounds to Leman Russ-EQ's.

The correct term would be "Get fethed, everyone."

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

I hope not. But! I'd rather the signum to effect the squad that way they don't have T5 but they get a bonus for standing still. Which I normally advocate against but still.

So when the inevitable SM 2.0 codex drops and see if devs get changed then we'll know if it's a money grab or not.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
All I know is I am psyched for this. 5 Havocs with 4 of the new rotor cannon is 32 24" S5 AP -1 shots that you can make with +1 to hit (Dark Apostle's prayer), and re-roll 1s or all fails (lord/abby), and even +1 to wound (VOTLW).

And you can double that with Endless Cacophony to 64 shots.

Get fethed, hordes.

"Hordes"?

That combo will do 25,92 wounds after saves to MEQ's, 15,55 wounds to Leman Russ-EQ's.

The correct term would be "Get fethed, everyone."

Very tasty indeed.