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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


There aren't any bolters in the Marine Devastator kit either. And. . . *gasp*. . . you could add bodies from the Tactical box to the Devastator squad. *hair on fire!*.

*shrug* I don't write the rules. That's just been the dynamic for quite some time now.

I get that to an extent. But this feels like it's on a new level. Havocs have been in the game for a looong time, and if this is all true it appears to be a heavy rewrite of a very old and familiar unit, one which has been a mirror to the Marine Devastators. I do not like it.

I still haven't seen the datasheet, though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Wait a minute, whaaaat? No extra bodies in the unit, obligatory heavy weapons, Sergeant defaulting to Flamer, T5. . . what is going on here?

No bolters in kit = no bolters in rules.

There aren't any bolters in the Marine Devastator kit either. And. . . *gasp*. . . you could add bodies from the Tactical box to the Devastator squad. *hair on fire!*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

We still have chosen for that. I am all for having different units for different roles if you ask me.

Too many options scare you?

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Afaik you couldn't give the champ a regular flamer, but yeah this new datasheet sucks.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Well now the new incarnation is more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead. That's a better datasheet entry than "oh it's another unit that takes a bunch of weapons".

God I love this community. Naively believing that GW doesn't give preferential rules to certain kits while routinely bankrupting themselves to be able to purchase the latest and greatest killer unit/army/faction.

Maybe the Havoc kits (and others that have such "unique" rules) are simply more profitable for GW to make relative to others? Maybe Hellblasters, Breachers and all the other "counter examples" thrown around just don't provide GW with a good enough bottom line?

The most hilarious thing is that GW staff have literally admitted that this happens.

Anyways, it makes no sense to me that a dude can fire a heavy weapon better than a tank, not from a fluff perspective nor from a gameplay perspective. I have fed this back to GW through the Facebook page. I can't be bothered to email them, it's not like they can be bothered to respond.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Anyways, it makes no sense to me that a dude can fire a heavy weapon better than a tank, not from a fluff perspective nor from a gameplay perspective. I have fed this back to GW through the Facebook page. I can't be bothered to email them, it's not like they can be bothered to respond.

This bothers me also, perhaps make Machine Spirit into a re-roll 1s ability for the vehicle and let vehicles move and fire heavy weapons without penalty.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
God I love this community. Naively believing that GW doesn't give preferential rules to certain kits while routinely bankrupting themselves to be able to purchase the latest and greatest killer unit/army/faction.

Maybe the Havoc kits (and others that have such "unique" rules) are simply more profitable for GW to make relative to others? Maybe Hellblasters, Breachers and all the other "counter examples" thrown around just don't provide GW with a good enough bottom line?

The most hilarious thing is that GW staff have literally admitted that this happens.

Anyways, it makes no sense to me that a dude can fire a heavy weapon better than a tank, not from a fluff perspective nor from a gameplay perspective. I have fed this back to GW through the Facebook page. I can't be bothered to email them, it's not like they can be bothered to respond.

So you chose the route that is least likely to be read? Emailing gets read; Facebook comments get a “please email” at best.

Based on the sprue leaked, basic bolters dont appear to be in the kit (not sure if the datasheet allows for it.)

Edit. Wow. Epic ninja. Guess I forgot to refresh the page for a while. Don't mind me.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
So you chose the route that is least likely to be read? Emailing gets read; Facebook comments get a “please email” at best.

I chose the route that was easiest for me, the consumer, at the time.

I very much doubt they read every email.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Well now the new incarnation is more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead. That's a better datasheet entry than "oh it's another unit that takes a bunch of weapons".

"more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead"
What does it do better? It alpha strikes slightly better, natively hitting 66% of the time rather than 50% of the time. Does it take hits better with T5? Not compared to a larger squad at T4 it doesn't.

"That's a better datasheet entry"
A better datasheet gives more options for different deployment and/or play styles.

Are Space Marines going to turn into Eldar now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Well now the new incarnation is more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead. That's a better datasheet entry than "oh it's another unit that takes a bunch of weapons".

How is it better. Before I could build them to focus on heavy weapons like the new data sheet. I could also give them special weapons freeing up elite slots now that I don't need to take chosen. I could also take ablative wounds so every wound isn't crippling the unit. The new data sheet restricts, and that's rarely a good thing.

 Galef wrote:
Even at Max 5 models, I still don't see why everyone is assuming they cannot have ablative wounds.
If you were taking 10 before (5 of which had to have bolters, and likely the Champ too), than why not just split that into 2x 5 with each unit only have 2-3 Heavy weapons?

You're getting the same (or MORE) number of Heavy weapons and can have the same "ratio" of ablative wounds if you want.
3 Heavies to 2 Bolters is a pretty good "sweet-spot" if you are dead set on expendable joes in the unit.

Is it as good as having 4 Heavies in 1 unit surrounded by 5-6 Bolter schmoes? Probably not, but it's not fair to say you cannot have ablative wounds for them at all.

-

You can't take bolter havocs. They no longer exist. Havocs have to take heavy weapons.

All my havocs are going into csm squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized Havocs may no longer take guns from the special weapons list either.


God damnit GW, I was having so much fun with 10 melta guys in a rhino.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Well now the new incarnation is more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead. That's a better datasheet entry than "oh it's another unit that takes a bunch of weapons".

"more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead"
What does it do better? It alpha strikes slightly better, natively hitting 66% of the time rather than 50% of the time. Does it take hits better with T5? Not compared to a larger squad at T4 it doesn't.

"That's a better datasheet entry"
A better datasheet gives more options for different deployment and/or play styles.

Are Space Marines going to turn into Eldar now?

That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with. If you were taking the four heavy weapons already, the T5 is only 5 more points compared to spending a whole other 13 points on one wound. If that's such a concern, the basic Chaos Marine entry and YES still Chosen exist. It's such a non-complaint about a better unit entry.
And you already have the multiple play styles. You want Special Weapons? Chosen. More Bolter shields for whatever reason? Chaos Marines.

Also specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner. So that's not a bad thing. Were Primaris slightly cheaper, they'd be so much better than any other Marine entry it's not even funny. Well outside Reivers which are terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They literally said the differing roles is a better idea than the last incarnation. This makes them closer to how they feel in 30k, which is a welcome change.

You could build the same squad with the last incarnation. You just also got to do other things if you wanted.

Well now the new incarnation is more focused for the Heavy Weapon role instead. That's a better datasheet entry than "oh it's another unit that takes a bunch of weapons".

How is it better. Before I could build them to focus on heavy weapons like the new data sheet. I could also give them special weapons freeing up elite slots now that I don't need to take chosen. I could also take ablative wounds so every wound isn't crippling the unit. The new data sheet restricts, and that's rarely a good thing.

Yes because you're so limited on Elite slots? Take a Vanguard detachment if that's a concern. Take Renegades & Heretics if you need that CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Even at Max 5 models, I still don't see why everyone is assuming they cannot have ablative wounds.
If you were taking 10 before (5 of which had to have bolters, and likely the Champ too), than why not just split that into 2x 5 with each unit only have 2-3 Heavy weapons?

You're getting the same (or MORE) number of Heavy weapons and can have the same "ratio" of ablative wounds if you want.
3 Heavies to 2 Bolters is a pretty good "sweet-spot" if you are dead set on expendable joes in the unit.

Is it as good as having 4 Heavies in 1 unit surrounded by 5-6 Bolter schmoes? Probably not, but it's not fair to say you cannot have ablative wounds for them at all.

-

You can't take bolter havocs. They no longer exist. Havocs have to take heavy weapons.

All my havocs are going into csm squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized Havocs may no longer take guns from the special weapons list either.


God damnit GW, I was having so much fun with 10 melta guys in a rhino.

And you can still do the same thing, but with Chosen!

^None of the above are good arguments.

A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.

B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.

C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.


Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines
Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors

Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Havocs

Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^None of the above are good arguments.

A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.

B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.

C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.


Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines
Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors

Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Havocs

Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.

Marines do not have Possessed, Obliterators, Daemon Engines, Dark Apostles, etc. It isn't very relevant to call out special weapons when they have so many other tools.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^None of the above are good arguments.

A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.

B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.

C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.


Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines
Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors

Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Havocs

Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.

And when you already have exotic shooting units like Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Obliterators, Etc...what is your point? It was really just a want for cheap Plasma Guns. Chosen are only a point more for an extra attack, which would go a long way for a squad wanting to get close, right?

Also listing Vanguard is a total stretch and you know that (in fact, I'm not even sure why you would list them), and Sternguard get TWO Special Weapons outside the Combi-Weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also listing Vanguard is a total stretch and you know that (in fact, I'm not even sure why you would list them), and Sternguard get TWO Special Weapons outside the Combi-Weapons.

Disagree about Vanguard. It's two shot Plasma that deep strikes itself. I've even built a squad.

The fact that Sternguard mass Combi-weapons and not Special weapons is a non-starter now that combis aren't limited in shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^None of the above are good arguments.

A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.

B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.

C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.


Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines
Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors

Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Havocs

Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.

Marines do not have Possessed, Obliterators, Daemon Engines, Dark Apostles, etc. It isn't very relevant to call out special weapons when they have so many other tools.

I dare you to count up unit entries from both books and compare.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also listing Vanguard is a total stretch and you know that (in fact, I'm not even sure why you would list them), and Sternguard get TWO Special Weapons outside the Combi-Weapons.

Disagree about Vanguard. It's two shot Plasma that deep strikes itself. I've even built a squad.

The fact that Sternguard mass Combi-weapons and not Special weapons is a non-starter now that combis aren't limited in shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^None of the above are good arguments.

A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.

B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.

C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.


Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines
Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors

Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Havocs

Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.

Marines do not have Possessed, Obliterators, Daemon Engines, Dark Apostles, etc. It isn't very relevant to call out special weapons when they have so many other tools.

I dare you to count up unit entries from both books and compare.

So basically your argument is "it can't take plasma anymore" if you're that determined to list Vanguard. Chosen are enough if you really want it at this point. Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now and points wise won't break the bank.

^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "

Carry heavy weapons like they could before?

"So basically your argument is "it can't take plasma anymore" if you're that determined to list Vanguard."

How often do you, Slayer-Fan, choose a special weapon other than plasma?

 Insectum7 wrote:

I dare you to count up unit entries from both books and compare.

It's not very relevant, because no one was loading up on all plasma all the time. Chosen can fill that role and do it much better than havoks did anyway.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "

Carry heavy weapons like they could before?

...They move and fire heavy weapons without penalty? Like. That's what the whole thread is about. You cannot have missed this

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

Even without it they are still a better unit than Havocs.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

Even without it they are still a better unit than Havocs.

Literally only because of the Cherub + Helfire exploit. That's literally it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "

Carry heavy weapons like they could before?

"So basically your argument is "it can't take plasma anymore" if you're that determined to list Vanguard."

How often do you, Slayer-Fan, choose a special weapon other than plasma?

Storm Bolters, typically. Otherwise yeah it'll be Plasma, sure.
Chosen were already a better for that though. You also missed the whole "hey look they got T5 and old school Relentless, so you got mobile infantry with heavy weapons and stuff".

I will remind you all once more to please be polite and remain on topic (which is Havocs moving and firing).
Thanks,
ingtaer.

Move and shoot a heavy weapon without penalty?

Game breaking. GW has no idea about game balance and obviously don't play the same game we do.

/Table flip

Gonna go to eBay and sell everything, and throw the rest in the trash. So angry! So salty!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

Even without it they are still a better unit than Havocs.

Literally only because of the Cherub + Helfire exploit. That's literally it.

lol what the


Why is that an exploit? That's their rules, and it makes them way better than Havocs. Hell, Cherub alone makes them better than Havocs.

Is Havocs now being able move and shoot also an exploit? lol

"Give factions flavour and different rules"

"Give units that fulfill the same role the same rules"

Classic Dakka.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The real question is: Will Devs get the same rule AND T5?
Because you will be able to pay an entire Roman legion with the salt that will bring if they don't

-

Even without it they are still a better unit than Havocs.

Literally only because of the Cherub + Helfire exploit. That's literally it.

lol what the


Why is that an exploit? That's their rules, and it makes them way better than Havocs. Hell, Cherub alone makes them better than Havocs.

Is Havocs now being able move and shoot also an exploit? lol

It's 2D3 Mortal Wounds for one turn.

And yeah that IS an exploit. It was made to work like that after an FAQ.

If it only works that way because the designers explicitly said it works it's the antithesis to an exploit.