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Old havocs started with bolters and changed them for heavies or specials. New havocs start with heavy bolters. I dont think bolters are an option because they never were but one could make a case for specials.
Of course I wouldnt because thats crearly the index rules reaching their breaking point when they were a concession for older players.
Also, arent new havocs called havoks? Thats technically a new unit.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Wait a minute, whaaaat? No extra bodies in the unit, obligatory heavy weapons, Sergeant defaulting to Flamer, T5. . . what is going on here?
No bolters in kit = no bolters in rules.
No thunderhammer in kit = no thunderhamm... oh wait.
Y'all remember when they gave all the Thousand Sons infantry inferno rounds in their bolters and even showed a picture of a Terminator Sorcerer converted with Scarab Occult bits to represent it? No, of course you don't.
Drager wrote: How does this new datasheet interact with the designers commentary about index options?
I'd say you can still play them in the old way, just like Combi-weapons on Plague champions or Plasma Pistols on Plague Marines.
The issue is that as mentioned above - Bolters were never a wargear option. They just started with them. That means that RAW you can't use the designer's commentary to access Bolters on the unit.
A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.
B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.
C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.
Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors
Chaos Space Marines Chosen
Havocs
Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.
You forgot Fallen.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.
A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.
B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.
C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.
Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors
Chaos Space Marines Chosen
Havocs
Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.
If two plasma pistols is the high, high bar you've taken, then you must add the following to the chaos side :
Bikers (two special weapons in a three man unit)
Raptors (two in a five man unit)
Fallen (same ratio as chosen)*
Khorne Berzerkers (two plasma pistols)
Plague Marines (two for a 5 man squad)
*Have to be taken in their own detachment, but taking three units shouldn't be a problem anyway, on account of you stating that twelve special weapons ain't enough for you.
PS : Those numbers are without the champion who usually can take a combi-weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 09:55:19
Insectum7 wrote: ^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "
Carry heavy weapons like they could before?
...They move and fire heavy weapons without penalty? Like. That's what the whole thread is about. You cannot have missed this
They already did something unique in the codex, which is load up on a multitude of heavy weapons on power armored marines.
Move and fire is a unique rule for that purpose, sure. But a better way to do it would have been to keep T4, keep the option for regular bodies and keep the option for specials at the same time. It encourages heavy weapons without forcing it, doesn't interfere with some older builds using specials, and doesn't create the odd situation where a marine with heavy in a havoc squad being T5, while the same model in a CSM squad being T4.
Insectum7 wrote: ^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "
Carry heavy weapons like they could before?
...They move and fire heavy weapons without penalty? Like. That's what the whole thread is about. You cannot have missed this
They already did something unique in the codex, which is load up on a multitude of heavy weapons on power armored marines.
Move and fire is a unique rule for that purpose, sure. But a better way to do it would have been to keep T4, keep the option for regular bodies and keep the option for specials at the same time. It encourages heavy weapons without forcing it, doesn't interfere with some older builds using specials, and doesn't create the odd situation where a marine with heavy in a havoc squad being T5, while the same model in a CSM squad being T4.
Listen pal, if "literally the exact same thing as the troop except can take different wargear" is your definition of unique then you gotta raise your standards a bit.
Insectum7 wrote: ^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "
Carry heavy weapons like they could before?
...They move and fire heavy weapons without penalty? Like. That's what the whole thread is about. You cannot have missed this
They already did something unique in the codex, which is load up on a multitude of heavy weapons on power armored marines.
Move and fire is a unique rule for that purpose, sure. But a better way to do it would have been to keep T4, keep the option for regular bodies and keep the option for specials at the same time. It encourages heavy weapons without forcing it, doesn't interfere with some older builds using specials, and doesn't create the odd situation where a marine with heavy in a havoc squad being T5, while the same model in a CSM squad being T4.
Listen pal, if "literally the exact same thing as the troop except can take different wargear" is your definition of unique then you gotta raise your standards a bit.
well, in that way, making it unique by slapping +1 toughness and relentless is as lazy and uninspiring as "unique" can go honestly.
A: Despite the ability to unlock more Elite slots, Chosen are still limited by the rule of 3.
B: "That's under the assumption people actually take that many bolter shields to begin with." It's not an assumption. I took extra bolter bodies with my Havocs.
C: "specialization makes Eldar in each edition flourish in some manner." Exotic rules make Eldar flourish in some manner, and it's different in every edition. Being able to move without penalty is not on par with always hitting on 3s. Your own example of Primaris marines shows that specialization does not always mean better.
Units to concentrate Special Weapons
Space Marines Command Squads
Sternguard Squads
Vanguard Squads (dual plasma pistol load out)
Hellblasters
Interceptors
Chaos Space Marines Chosen
Havocs
Removal of options is generally bad. Imo this was a poor move in game design terms.
If two plasma pistols is the high, high bar you've taken, then you must add the following to the chaos side :
Bikers (two special weapons in a three man unit)
Raptors (two in a five man unit)
Fallen (same ratio as chosen)*
Khorne Berzerkers (two plasma pistols)
Plague Marines (two for a 5 man squad)
*Have to be taken in their own detachment, but taking three units shouldn't be a problem anyway, on account of you stating that twelve special weapons ain't enough for you.
You may have noticed the warning on the prior page, but I'll point out the issue being saturatuon here. (Not to mention loyalists can match the bikes). Chaos tops out at 5 models with specials like plasma in a squad. Vanguard, not even carrying "official" specials, get the equivalent of ten models, being the entire squad. Three Vanguard squads can alone field the maximum plasma equivalent that all those chosen and fallen with specials combined.
I don't really understand the disconnect about Vanguard. Dual plasma pistols acts like a plasmagun in rapid fire range in most circumstances, except costs a point less. They function like Jump Marines with all plasmaguns. Or Sternguard with plasma that only pay 20 points for a drop pod.
Anyways thats the last I'll respond to that line of posts.
Listen pal, if "literally the exact same thing as the troop except can take different wargear" is your definition of unique then you gotta raise your standards a bit.
Any other choice in the book allow for infantry loading up on a bunch of Lascannons?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 10:18:53
Regarding "Index" options for Havocs: As several have stated above, Bolters were never an "option" for them, just the default weapon.
That also means you cannot take Combi-/Special weapons either, since you need to swap a Bolter for those...which you don't have.
Overall, I do not think this is a bad thing since:
A) the Champion can still take Specials/Combis apparently and
B) Chosen are supposed to be the Special/Combi-weapon unit
As long as GW takes steps to be consistent (i.e. give Devs a new datasheet that makes them T5 with HBs as the default weapon) than I think everything will be fine.
Galef wrote: Regarding "Index" options for Havocs: As several have stated above, Bolters were never an "option" for them, just the default weapon.
That also means you cannot take Combi-/Special weapons either, since you need to swap a Bolter for those...which you don't have.
Overall, I do not think this is a bad thing since:
A) the Champion can still take Specials/Combis apparently and
B) Chosen are supposed to be the Special/Combi-weapon unit
As long as GW takes steps to be consistent (i.e. give Devs a new datasheet that makes them T5 with HBs as the default weapon) than I think everything will be fine.
-
The T5 thing actually makes havocs unique, which I like.
However, Chosen are 'veterans', so are inherently different units than Havocs. The removal of those options was stupid imo, looking from more than purely a rules perspective. (Which I look at it from somewhat, rules aren't everything, fluff wise veterans being the only ones with special weapons en masse seems silly when them being better in combat would seem to indicate they should be getting up close and personal)
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
GW is moving increasingly towards specialized units, or rather, units with very specific options. If Oldmarines are going to be with us for a while (probably for years to come still) than I would expect changes just like this.
Havoc = Heavy weapons
Chosen = Special and/or melee weapons
Although Chaos =/= Imperium, there are obvious equivalents. Chosen are both Sternguard AND Vanguard Vets rolled into 1 choice, but without the Jump Pack option (because WarpTalons exist)
I think it's a nice rule change to be honest. As someone new(ish) to 40k rules, I always thought it was strange having "tacticals" that can take mostly bolters and some heavy/special weapons, and then having a separate unit (havocs or devastators) that can take. . . bolters and some heavy/special weapons. I know there's definitely more to it than that of course, but I like how the rules create just a bit more focus and flavor for the unit.
I like the T5 and the "relentless" rules as well as a bit of a compensation for loss of ablative wounds, because let's be honest: those ablative wounds were not very points inefficient to begin with. Now you can hide a small unit of 5 out of LOS turn 1, then pop out and fire. Or load them in a rhino if they ever become efficient enough. Sure, they can't pull Dark Reaper shenanigans, but I don't think Dark Reapers are the unit we should be balancing to.
The only thing not to like is that other models (dreadnoughts, preds, etc) haven't gotten similar rules. But, I don't think other units continuing to suck is reason to be upset that the new Havocs are improved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 13:39:16
Galas wrote: Old havocs started with bolters and changed them for heavies or specials. New havocs start with heavy bolters. I dont think bolters are an option because they never were but one could make a case for specials.
Of course I wouldnt because thats crearly the index rules reaching their breaking point when they were a concession for older players.
Also, arent new havocs called havoks? Thats technically a new unit.
No - GW is calling them Havocs. People just switch the c with a k sometimes.
Insectum7 wrote: ^"Havocs actually do something somewhat unique now "
Carry heavy weapons like they could before?
...They move and fire heavy weapons without penalty? Like. That's what the whole thread is about. You cannot have missed this
They already did something unique in the codex, which is load up on a multitude of heavy weapons on power armored marines.
Move and fire is a unique rule for that purpose, sure. But a better way to do it would have been to keep T4, keep the option for regular bodies and keep the option for specials at the same time. It encourages heavy weapons without forcing it, doesn't interfere with some older builds using specials, and doesn't create the odd situation where a marine with heavy in a havoc squad being T5, while the same model in a CSM squad being T4.
Listen pal, if "literally the exact same thing as the troop except can take different wargear" is your definition of unique then you gotta raise your standards a bit.
Not different wargear. Slightly more of the same wargear. The standard wasn't even there!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: GW is moving increasingly towards specialized units, or rather, units with very specific options. If Oldmarines are going to be with us for a while (probably for years to come still) than I would expect changes just like this.
Havoc = Heavy weapons
Chosen = Special and/or melee weapons
Although Chaos =/= Imperium, there are obvious equivalents. Chosen are both Sternguard AND Vanguard Vets rolled into 1 choice, but without the Jump Pack option (because WarpTalons exist)
-
Chosen you should think of more like a Command Squad that can get a 6th dude for an additional weapon, as the whole melee aspect is covered in several different areas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Devastators have the Cherub and Signum to differentiate them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/26 15:04:46
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Bharring wrote: Some of us *liked* that you had Marines, who could kit out differently for different roles.
The Cherub and Primaris and now the Havoc changes - GW is removing one of my favorite things about Marines.
And how are they still not being kitted out for different roles? The heavy weapons you take have the actual roles, not the Marines themselves. Ergo, the non-weaponry warhead simply makes them better at it.
This really is complaining for the sake of complaining.
Well they were never troop, nor good pointed, now we MAY see some.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
"And how are they still not being kitted out for different roles?"
I suppose they still are, like how a Rhino and a Land Raider are kitted for different roles. Or how an Ork Boy and a Fire Warrior are kitted for different roles.
"The heavy weapons you take have the actual roles, not the Marines themselves."
The Lascannon makes you T5? But only sometimes? And you can fire it on the move, but only sometimes?
"Ergo, the non-weaponry warhead simply makes them better at it. "
Then why does the same Marine, with the same Wargear, have different rules just because a different icon is painted on his right shoulderpad? The specific point is I liked the fluff where a Tac Marine with a Heavy had the exact same loadout as a Dev with a Heavy.
"This really is complaining for the sake of complaining. "
I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to like the things I like.
I've done 2 GT's this year so far and AFAIK I was the only one that brought havocs. One was an 84 person event, the other was 60. I ran them as an IW Spearhead.
Bharring wrote: Some of us *liked* that you had Marines, who could kit out differently for different roles.
The Cherub and Primaris and now the Havoc changes - GW is removing one of my favorite things about Marines.
And how are they still not being kitted out for different roles? The heavy weapons you take have the actual roles, not the Marines themselves. Ergo, the non-weaponry warhead simply makes them better at it.
This really is complaining for the sake of complaining.
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