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If the rules are any good, maybe it could replace standard 40k rules for games of 2k points and upwards. Feels like we are playing apocalypse already with all the death robots and 100+ infantry allready.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Orks already have the Stompa, IG already have the Baneblade, CSM have the Lord of Skulls and Necrons have the Obelisk/Tesseract Vault. Those were released for Apocalypse back in the day, right? Am I missing anything from that release?
There are Knights and Knight-equivalents, which the Imperium, Eldar and Tau have (and Orks sort-of).
So that leaves Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the cold as far as major factions without anything in plastic, right? Am I forgetting anyone?
I'm guessing that the will be a Primaris flyer in plastic just close enough to a Thunderhawk to make all the classic SM players mad.
You forgot Daemons, whilst the lord of skulls is a daemon it's in the CSM book so I think there could be room for something a little more... bestial?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Orks already have the Stompa, IG already have the Baneblade, CSM have the Lord of Skulls and Necrons have the Obelisk/Tesseract Vault. Those were released for Apocalypse back in the day, right? Am I missing anything from that release?
There are Knights and Knight-equivalents, which the Imperium, Eldar and Tau have (and Orks sort-of).
So that leaves Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the cold as far as major factions without anything in plastic, right? Am I forgetting anyone?
I'm guessing that the will be a Primaris flyer in plastic just close enough to a Thunderhawk to make all the classic SM players mad.
You forgot Daemons, whilst the lord of skulls is a daemon it's in the CSM book so I think there could be room for something a little more... bestial?
And it's worth pointing out that whilst the Dark Eldar have nothing in plastic, they also have nothing in resin or metal as far as LoW go. They simply have nothing. *Sheds a bitter tear*
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Orks already have the Stompa, IG already have the Baneblade, CSM have the Lord of Skulls and Necrons have the Obelisk/Tesseract Vault. Those were released for Apocalypse back in the day, right? Am I missing anything from that release?
There are Knights and Knight-equivalents, which the Imperium, Eldar and Tau have (and Orks sort-of).
So that leaves Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the cold as far as major factions without anything in plastic, right? Am I forgetting anyone?
I'm guessing that the will be a Primaris flyer in plastic just close enough to a Thunderhawk to make all the classic SM players mad.
You forgot Daemons, whilst the lord of skulls is a daemon it's in the CSM book so I think there could be room for something a little more... bestial?
And it's worth pointing out that whilst the Dark Eldar have nothing in plastic, they also have nothing in resin or metal as far as LoW go. They simply have nothing. *Sheds a bitter tear*
All I am hoping is that it means GW can push the stuff that never fit 40k's scale, like flyers and superheavies, into Apocalypse and move 40k back to being a company scale game which it was always designed around being. Reason being is that they would now have different rules for 3 scales, the way it should be:
* Small scale/skirmish (Kill Team) * Company (40k) * Brigade/mass battle (Apocalypse)
It would make sense for them to have this split and then focus on bringing 40k back to the style it does best rather than try to have a vast game that can do everything poorly because it tries to accommodate small, medium and large scale games.
However, I'm not holding my breath as there would be tons of people who would cry and whine that their hobby is being "limited" because they can't use stuff in the regular game. And GW won't want to impact that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/29 12:23:02
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Orks already have the Stompa, IG already have the Baneblade, CSM have the Lord of Skulls and Necrons have the Obelisk/Tesseract Vault. Those were released for Apocalypse back in the day, right? Am I missing anything from that release?
There are Knights and Knight-equivalents, which the Imperium, Eldar and Tau have (and Orks sort-of).
So that leaves Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the cold as far as major factions without anything in plastic, right? Am I forgetting anyone?
I'm guessing that the will be a Primaris flyer in plastic just close enough to a Thunderhawk to make all the classic SM players mad.
You forgot Daemons, whilst the lord of skulls is a daemon it's in the CSM book so I think there could be room for something a little more... bestial?
And it's worth pointing out that whilst the Dark Eldar have nothing in plastic, they also have nothing in resin or metal as far as LoW go. They simply have nothing. *Sheds a bitter tear*
Ugh, I hated the first Apocalypse. 28mm is the wrong scale for what they are trying to do. If they were bringing Epic back I'd jump in so fast, Apocalypse is a hard pass for me.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
Creeping Dementia wrote: Ugh, I hated the first Apocalypse. 28mm is the wrong scale for what they are trying to do. If they were bringing Epic back I'd jump in so fast, Apocalypse is a hard pass for me.
To be fair though, the issue with the old Epic was they felt it meant you weren't buying models for 40k. I actually don't mind 28mm Epic because it means you're still buying models for 40k, and then 'scaling up' to Epic size with hopefully more abstract, streamlined rules.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Ugh, I hated the first Apocalypse. 28mm is the wrong scale for what they are trying to do. If they were bringing Epic back I'd jump in so fast, Apocalypse is a hard pass for me.
To be fair though, the issue with the old Epic was they felt it meant you weren't buying models for 40k. I actually don't mind 28mm Epic because it means you're still buying models for 40k, and then 'scaling up' to Epic size with hopefully more abstract, streamlined rules.
I can honestly see this being a much easier sale than trying to reintroduce the odd 4-8mm scale of epic models.
Adeptus Titanicus apparently has a real good ruleset, this sound promising. It's certainly not going to be worse than 8th edition 40k for scalability. Ok each infantry model might not matter, but at a certain point watching someone spend 30 minutes moving 4 point models around gets real old.
Meh, I really think Apocalypse is a system on a small minority of players even get the chance to play or maybe play once a year with friends. I would have preferred thry put their efforts into making 40k Epic alongside their AT models to really make an affordable way to have huge games. However, knowing modern GW, even their Epic wouldn't be as affordable as it was in the 90s.... they'd make 3 land raiders like £20 or something then they used be bought in stacks in boxes. XD
Honestly, back then there were two games... either you played 40k or you played Epic. People would often choose or play both. It also helped that BFG had cross system play though for epic. Maybe they could do a campaign mode with epic models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/29 13:36:12
lolman1c wrote: Meh, I really think Apocalypse is a system on a small minority of players even get the chance to play or maybe play once a year with friends. I would have preferred thry put their efforts into making 40k Epic alongside their AT models to really make an affordable way to have huge games. However, knowing modern GW, even their Epic wouldn't be as affordable as it was in the 90s.... they'd make 3 land raiders like £20 or something then they used be bought in stacks in boxes. XD
What is Apocalypse scale 6k points, 5k, 4k, 3k, 2.5k?
If you can play a 3k game in less time under Apocalypse rules that have less WTF rules moments than a 2k or 1750 point 8th edition game why wouldn't people just move to that?
Some people complain that even 2k games are Apocalypse scale, fine if you want to reduce 40k to 500 to 1500 point games I could see a lot of pressure on TO's for Apocalypse events over 40k.
Wayniac wrote: All I am hoping is that it means GW can push the stuff that never fit 40k's scale, like flyers and superheavies, into Apocalypse and move 40k back to being a company scale game which it was always designed around being. Reason being is that they would now have different rules for 3 scales, the way it should be:
* Small scale/skirmish (Kill Team)
* Company (40k)
* Brigade/mass battle (Apocalypse)
It would make sense for them to have this split and then focus on bringing 40k back to the style it does best rather than try to have a vast game that can do everything poorly because it tries to accommodate small, medium and large scale games.
However, I'm not holding my breath as there would be tons of people who would cry and whine that their hobby is being "limited" because they can't use stuff in the regular game. And GW won't want to impact that.
I agree with above,... both the hope and the skepticism...
Creeping Dementia wrote: Ugh, I hated the first Apocalypse. 28mm is the wrong scale for what they are trying to do. If they were bringing Epic back I'd jump in so fast, Apocalypse is a hard pass for me.
I personally agree that massed armies belong in a proper Epic 40K gaming system; the space required is too big, the models too expensive and not mentioning the time to paint it all. But there is always going to be enough users out there who would still prefer to collect the 28mm scale and play massive battles. So if GW had said "EPIC 40K RETURNS!", those players would still be uncatered for and left playing long, drawn out games.
It was a similar situation for those of us who were only interested in a single squad's worth for 40K - we desired Major Sharpe and his men, not Wellington and his grand army. Like Apocalypse, it only takes a rule set to oblige us. In neither case are new models required as what we want to field is either already in our collections or available to buy.
Thinking deeper, I'd say GW did well in chosing Titans and Knights for the return to epic, as they are the largest and most expensive units in 40K. I don't know if they will go all-out Epic 40K or "Space Marine" but Apocalypse could actually help convince GW that it does need to return. Naturally this game will provide them with the feedback of "I want to play Apocalypse, but the physical size of it is too prohibitive.". With Titanicus already in place with the titans'n'terrain, Epic 40K now stands a better chance than ever before...
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Orks already have the Stompa, IG already have the Baneblade, CSM have the Lord of Skulls and Necrons have the Obelisk/Tesseract Vault. Those were released for Apocalypse back in the day, right? Am I missing anything from that release?
There are Knights and Knight-equivalents, which the Imperium, Eldar and Tau have (and Orks sort-of).
So that leaves Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the cold as far as major factions without anything in plastic, right? Am I forgetting anyone?
I'm guessing that the will be a Primaris flyer in plastic just close enough to a Thunderhawk to make all the classic SM players mad.
You forgot Daemons, whilst the lord of skulls is a daemon it's in the CSM book so I think there could be room for something a little more... bestial?
And it's worth pointing out that whilst the Dark Eldar have nothing in plastic, they also have nothing in resin or metal as far as LoW go. They simply have nothing. *Sheds a bitter tear*
For some reason I thought the Tantalus was a LoW, but I double checked and you're right it's just Heavy Support.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote: All I am hoping is that it means GW can push the stuff that never fit 40k's scale, like flyers and superheavies, into Apocalypse and move 40k back to being a company scale game which it was always designed around being. Reason being is that they would now have different rules for 3 scales, the way it should be:
* Small scale/skirmish (Kill Team)
* Company (40k)
* Brigade/mass battle (Apocalypse)
It would make sense for them to have this split and then focus on bringing 40k back to the style it does best rather than try to have a vast game that can do everything poorly because it tries to accommodate small, medium and large scale games.
Spoiler:
However, I'm not holding my breath as there would be tons of people who would cry and whine that their hobby is being "limited" because they can't use stuff in the regular game. And GW won't want to impact that.
Epic Armageddon rules would work fine for Apocalypse. However, I think NetEpicGold would be a better game because of smaller squad sizes... but I always found Net Epic Gold confusing and so never tried it fully. XD
No. 40k is pittance skirmishes without even company of IG on field nevermind companies of leman russes(that's dozens. One company is 10) supported by infantry, artirelly, titans(40k titan rules btw suck) etc etc etc. For truly big battles you need hundreds of soldiers. And 40k breaks down rulewise when it goes much beyond 2k. You don't get true big sized game with just throwing up more models on board. You need completely new ruleset that emphasized problems of BIG BATTLES. It's not about micromanaging models individual positions to 3 point models. It's not about worrying about individual loadouts of units. It's about big picture. Big sweeping manouveres and application of force.
Of course issue with 40kapoc will be board size. When armies start within spitting distance...Truly epic sized games are where you can have artirelly _unable to reach target due to range_. Good luck doing that with 28mm model.
But calling 40k apocalypse scale is laughable. How many 500+ model armies you see? And 500 warriors is small size skirmish in 40k...It wouldn't be big even in scale of world war 2 and 40k battles are even bigger. Thousands of IG troopers sent to meatgrinder without care.
No. 40k is pittance skirmishes without even company of IG on field nevermind companies of leman russes(that's dozens. One company is 10) supported by infantry, artirelly, titans(40k titan rules btw suck) etc etc etc. For truly big battles you need hundreds of soldiers. And 40k breaks down rulewise when it goes much beyond 2k. You don't get true big sized game with just throwing up more models on board. You need completely new ruleset that emphasized problems of BIG BATTLES. It's not about micromanaging models individual positions to 3 point models. It's not about worrying about individual loadouts of units. It's about big picture. Big sweeping manouveres and application of force.
Of course issue with 40kapoc will be board size. When armies start within spitting distance...Truly epic sized games are where you can have artirelly _unable to reach target due to range_. Good luck doing that with 28mm model.
But calling 40k apocalypse scale is laughable. How many 500+ model armies you see? And 500 warriors is small size skirmish in 40k...It wouldn't be big even in scale of world war 2 and 40k battles are even bigger. Thousands of IG troopers sent to meatgrinder without care.
I will agree with above. To have really big battles you need really big boards. 8×12. 16 by 20. BIG boards. They need multi segments on to wheels or tracks so you can slide them apart step in and move your units. BIG BOARDS!
BrianDavion wrote: I noticed D12s on the preview video so looks like GW's finally using dice other then D6s. this by itself could be kinda exciting
GW has plenty of games, both ancient and recent, that use D12s, D20s, D10s and other dice: Burning of Prospero, Kill Team, Blackstone Fortress, Blood Bowl through all the editions, etc...
Yet 40k, their most popular game, which could use any other die than d6, and where it would actually be awesome for system because it would allow them to actually flesh units as they 'should' supposed to be still uses d6...because reasons. That space marine that trains for decades and decades, only shoots 16% more accurate with his weapon than guardsmen after few months of training... And those with millenias of experiance only hit 32% better than that poor guardsmen...heck, apparently everyone in 40k is mentally challenged compared to Joe the guardsmen, if they only manage to be 32% more accurate after millennias of wars, training and experiance...
Prospero? They ain't selling it any more if I am not mistaken, and people who bought it for 'boardgame' and not for 30k models are probably absurdly small percent of people.
My only concern with this is massive battles in the FLGS.
We've already got guys that, for some reason- bring not only their entire army- but multiple entire armies... and then decide they want to start a 5000 point game at 8 PM. Or worse, they show up earlier and spend all day playing that massive game but take smoke breaks what seems like every phase.
I'm really looking forward to playing this new Apocalypse. Atm, I hate playing anything more than 2000pts. The game is not balanced at all for that. At 5k, Primarchs and Knights can't even last a full turn on the table, if your opponent wants something dead, it's dead.
We've already got guys that, for some reason- bring not only their entire army- but multiple entire armies... and then decide they want to start a 5000 point game at 8 PM. Or worse, they show up earlier and spend all day playing that massive game but take smoke breaks what seems like every phase.
Well isn't the supposed point of this new Apoc rules is that those games will take as long as a regular 40k game, and not be all day affairs?
Wayniac wrote: Well isn't the supposed point of this new Apoc rules is that those games will take as long as a regular 40k game, and not be all day affairs?
Hopefully. Doesn't mean the shop won't have the entire wargaming area covered in miniature boxes.
I'm thinking I might have to feel this one out and start limiting how much stuff people can bring into that area.
Wayniac wrote: Well isn't the supposed point of this new Apoc rules is that those games will take as long as a regular 40k game, and not be all day affairs?
Hopefully. Doesn't mean the shop won't have the entire wargaming area covered in miniature boxes.
I'm thinking I might have to feel this one out and start limiting how much stuff people can bring into that area.
Tell them that if they want to do such a large scale game, they need to schedule it in advance so people are aware when the tables will be occupied. Not that big of a deal really.
No. 40k is pittance skirmishes without even company of IG on field nevermind companies of leman russes(that's dozens. One company is 10) supported by infantry, artirelly, titans(40k titan rules btw suck) etc etc etc. For truly big battles you need hundreds of soldiers. And 40k breaks down rulewise when it goes much beyond 2k. You don't get true big sized game with just throwing up more models on board. You need completely new ruleset that emphasized problems of BIG BATTLES. It's not about micromanaging models individual positions to 3 point models. It's not about worrying about individual loadouts of units. It's about big picture. Big sweeping manouveres and application of force.
Of course issue with 40kapoc will be board size. When armies start within spitting distance...Truly epic sized games are where you can have artirelly _unable to reach target due to range_. Good luck doing that with 28mm model.
But calling 40k apocalypse scale is laughable. How many 500+ model armies you see? And 500 warriors is small size skirmish in 40k...It wouldn't be big even in scale of world war 2 and 40k battles are even bigger. Thousands of IG troopers sent to meatgrinder without care.
This is the kind of war game I hope to have one day. Earthshakers are basically useless in standard 40k, as are many of the awesome FW models like Malcadors or Gorgons. Just imagining 4 or 5 of those babies crawling across the table, hopin to dump their entire load of IG before they sustain fatal wounds. Or how about hordes of Orks rampaging across the board wrecking everything the come across? It's the stuff of dreams.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 16:44:54
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Tell them that if they want to do such a large scale game, they need to schedule it in advance so people are aware when the tables will be occupied. Not that big of a deal really.
It's an easy fix. In truth, we don't do 'reserved tables' where I work. If we do, it'll start becoming a scramble for people to reserve them just to be sure they have a place to game, and then they won't show up.
We tried that with the D&D groups, and that's how it turned out. We're thinking of just setting an overall time limit. I'm thinking I'll probably be taking the terrain down, boxing it, and having people check it out- and after a certain amount of time, you get charged (as it is now, use of our crafting and gaming tables is free with any purchase for something that is used for wargaming).
The best possible outcome of this for me is that it actually gets rid of super heavies from the base game. Not as a requirement of course, because I'm fine with them occasionally, but if there was at least an opportunity for players to agree that, "Yeah! Super heavies no longer belong in 40k. Let's save them for our Apocalypse games," that'd be wonderful!
Plus, I can envision some awesome opportunities for campaigns beginning with Kill Team, running through 40k and ending with a massive Apocalyptic show down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/03 09:59:17
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 