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There's clearly multiple aspects that come into play and even within GW there might be variation on the impression as to why an army was dropped. Some might think it was sales; some might think it was political; or investment driven or marketing theory or any one of a number of aspects.

Some of them might even be simply a case of "something" had to go and one army got a short straw and others didn't. I know we've some firm facts about some- eg Squats were mostly lost because they didn't have an ally on the design team and as they were making 40K a more "serious" setting they couldn't find a place for them. Then they got renamed and reclassified as Demiurg, but then it seems no one championed them enough and they never found the investment and slots to make them a reality. However, like many things, they have come around again - granted thus far only as a spaceship ally for Tau in the very end of BFG and in the two BFG computer games.

GW TOTALLY works by what the guys on the design team like. I don't mean THATS the only thing that matters, but you can for example look at Horus Heresy. Alan Blight was basically THE horus heresy guy on the studio. After his death, you can see how fast Horus Heresy and forgeworld in general have been cut down and reformed.


The same happens with factions, and armies in both 40k and aos (And old fantasy).

FAQ rewording is up. The Horror Banner with a used DD of 1 DOES work. It’s worded for no ambiguity; they straight up tell you it works as intended.

 Sasori wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
That intent was pretty clear. The Destiny Die just determines the die roll, not how it's effected by modifiers. Were people really not playing it that way? That doesn't even make sense.

No, the intent was not clear with how the rules read for DD before the errata. The destiny dice rules said that the roll could not be modified further. Thus, you would not add the battleshock casualties as that is modifying the dice roll.

FAQ was updated today. DD of 1 count as unmodified and allow the use of the horror banner for battleshock.

Not the ruling I was expecting, but glad it was clarified.

So to clarify, the way DD on Battleshock works is;

You replace the dice for battleshock. If you use a 2 to a 6, the roll is modified by casualties and battleshock is taken as normal. If you use a 1, it isn't modified and gets you D6 Pinks back if you have a banner?

Basically, yeah.

I'm fine with this. They've clarified it to the point where it's exactly how I thought it should work in the first place. Now they can focus on the actually important job of reigning in the power of the book... Or just not bother and let Lumineth Realmlords be their counter so they can point at them and say "See, Tzeentch isn't the strongest "

 Thadin wrote:
I'm fine with this. They've clarified it to the point where it's exactly how I thought it should work in the first place. Now they can focus on the actually important job of reigning in the power of the book... Or just not bother and let Lumineth Realmlords be their counter so they can point at them and say "See, Tzeentch isn't the strongest "

Everyone knows that the counter to Tzeentch Arcanites is the Shadowblades.

After all, nothing deals with the subtlety of wizards like a knife between the shoulderblades.

Null Myriad would be the hard counter, were one looking for it.

Which is somewhat humorous since every other variety of OBR gets rolled by Tzeentch.

Isn't the tournament-stomping Tzeentch lists more focused on Shooting damage output, as opposed to offensive magic? I've only heard the hearsay, and how dirty Flamers and Kairic Acolytes are. Shooting is the best way to deal with Ossiarchs

 Thadin wrote:
Isn't the tournament-stomping Tzeentch lists more focused on Shooting damage output, as opposed to offensive magic? I've only heard the hearsay, and how dirty Flamers and Kairic Acolytes are. Shooting is the best way to deal with Ossiarchs

There are a few different lists floating around, but Kairic Acolytes are a really well balanced unit. I honestly think Flamers are really balanced as well, as they really are a glass cannon unit. It's the other enablers in the book that allow them to be so strong.

1. The Eternal Conflagration Changehost- This list is mostly focused on shooting, with the shooting from Horrors and Flamers improving a lot.
2. Hosts Duplicitous Changehost- This one probably took the biggest nerf from the changehost and horror battleshock. Basically uses a ton of horrors to lockdown the enemy units forever, while taking objectives and grinding them down.
3. Guild of Summoners mass casting- This list doing mass casting to get off a bunch of spells, and summon several LoCs on to the field.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a tuned Tzeentch list to not being doing considerable amounts of both. While it may focus one way or another both shooting and magic will be large components. Shooting is only good against OBR when compared to trying to melee them to death, generally speaking it's mortal wounds that will tear through them. Any Tzeentch list will throw out tons, for which being able to shut them down gives Null Myriad enough survivability to counter-play. It isn't that Tzeentch won't shoot them to death, it's that Tzeentch won't shoot them to death fast enough without being able to back it up with MW spellcasting.

The reason this won't be sweeping the tournament scene is that null myriad will stand up to Tzeentch but turn around and get obliterated by a long list of other tier-1 and -2 armies. It is in essence a 'troll-the-meta' list which takes a very specific mindset for someone to want to run.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think it's unrealistic to expect a tuned Tzeentch list to not being doing considerable amounts of both. While it may focus one way or another both shooting and magic will be large components. Shooting is only good against OBR when compared to trying to melee them to death, generally speaking it's mortal wounds that will tear through them. Any Tzeentch list will throw out tons, for which being able to shut them down gives Null Myriad enough survivability to counter-play. It isn't that Tzeentch won't shoot them to death, it's that Tzeentch won't shoot them to death fast enough without being able to back it up with MW spellcasting.

The reason this won't be sweeping the tournament scene is that null myriad will stand up to Tzeentch but turn around and get obliterated by a long list of other tier-1 and -2 armies. It is in essence a 'troll-the-meta' list which takes a very specific mindset for someone to want to run.

As both a OBR and Tzeentch player, I think the recent nerfs dropped Tzeentch down enough that you do not need to go Null Myriad to beat them. You are sacrificing too much of your all comers strength for a specific match-up, which isn't as needed anymore.

I have been playing a 2x Crawler + Arkhan list that has been pretty effective. The change host nerf blunts their alphastrike pretty well, and Arkhan can reliably dispel a few of their critical spells. The crawlers are really key for the matchup.

Ok, I will give you that Arkhan + 2x Crawler could do it.

Anyone been having any luck with the Idoneth deepkin? I fell in love with this faction but I can see it’s age when compared to the newest books. I will say that I been having mixed results when using a squad of 3 allopex’s since the book dropped, but sometimes I don’t feel like we hit as hard as we should.

Idoneth can hit pretty hard, but keep in mind they are a scalpel army, not a bat. Which is to say you need to be very precise about what when and where to get the results you want. Once you get atop their learning curve, however, they can be very rewarding to play.

Can you provide more context as to what armies you are up against?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Idoneth can hit pretty hard, but keep in mind they are a scalpel army, not a bat. Which is to say you need to be very precise about what when and where to get the results you want. Once you get atop their learning curve, however, they can be very rewarding to play.

Can you provide more context as to what armies you are up against?

Right now I am on a small winning streak against ogor maw tribes, but these are more pick up games with an akhelian corps battalion. The biggest things I had trouble with so far with is petrifax bone reapers or giant units of meaty things like iron guts or gluttons. Really, if I end up bouncing off a unit like this it’s game over for my morrsarr guard, and the death of my armies strongest hammer.

I used to have problems getting my big unit of eels in combat before they charged, but with the soul scryer this is less and less of an issue.

Ah, those are among the strongest end of what those armies put out so having some trouble is understandable. I would reccomend borrowing an OBR battletome and reading up on how their army and its different components work together. As for big blobs of ogors, especially ironguts, remember they can only be one place and kill one thing at a time. Even if they end up killing everything you have by the end of the game if you can spread out and score more victory points while they are doing it you'll win in the end. Numerous times I have won games despite being tabled.

 Overread wrote:
Far as I'm aware outside of comments from former employees (many of which are only red-shirt store level so biased by their local communities) we've never really had solid facts on sales data for armies outside of Space Marines - and only then because they make up a significant percentage of total sales on their own.

I don't think GW has ever published sales data broken down on a per-army level - its always been wrapped up to a per game/franchise/department level of profits and sales and such.

You want sales numbers?

value of US Sales
Product 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
Space Marine Assault Squad Plastic box set $59,689 $103,774 $159,460 $166,720 $170,287 $199,076 $245,035 $203,422 $150,010
Choas Space marine squad box $83,246 $79,391 $128,286 $153,565 $171,149 $140,691 $142,346 $114,544 $101,330
Space Marine Devastators box $37,617 $37,193 $53,395 $102,333 $157,763 $190,294 $201,442 $174,588 $156,079
Space Marine Land Raider Box $59,033 $60,665 $68,728 $64,523 $68,987 $90,508 $113,803 $99,573 $76,975
Space Marine tactical squad box $118,841 $191,862 $257,396 $276,615 $248,633 $192,011 $106,278 $84,834 $60,698
Blood Angels Baal Predator $11,672 $14,854 $17,681 $12,723 $20,687 $6,956 $129,369 $107,645 $66,260

Eldar Jet bike $14,744 $12,376 $13,086 $26,773 $22,922 $18,292 $31,346 $23,361 $17,613
Sisters of Battle Exorcist Box $48,747 $8,086 $5,740 $5,992 $14,420 $20,246 $14,047 $4,548
Choas Space Marine Squad Box $82,346 $79,391 $128,286 $153,565 $171,149 $140,691 $142,346 $114,544 $101,330

Empire Battalion $13,910 $27,129 $24,545 $56,076 $34,754 $10,392 $21,507 $22,985 $20,505
Empire Knightly Orders Box $36,188 $28,748 $30,994 $26,213 $25,229 $18,642 $16,392 $16,745 $13,336
High Elf Battalion $26,216 $32,427 $50,205 $50,284 $48,549 $47,529 $19,444 $495
High Elf spearman box $41,233 $34,970 $29,435 $25,862 $39,239 $31,033 $29,291 $49,949 $27,876
High Elf Archers box $35,792 $27,600 $20,031 $14,091 $17,201 $13,092 $12,053 $20,813 $11,192
Battle for Skull Pass $684,926 $212,914 $203,155 $165,321 $22,420 $450

Codex Blood Angels $13,238 $8,706 $4,355 $699 $0 $0 $202,728 $119,750 $77,262
Codex Space Marines $265,978 $180,765 $163,247 $130,454 $194,663 $88,806 $45,118 $39,197
Wh40K 4th edition $809,847 $300,624 $269,076 $202,810 $1,778 $50
Wh40K 5th edition $3,575 $934,305 $281,144 $257,258 $173,891
Warhammer armies The Empire $25,717 $21,254 $22,391 $81,163 $43,846 $34,658 $31,229 $33,245 $16,308
Warhammer armies High Elves $31,870 $22,935 $20,902 $22,397 $104,629 $44,346 $29,821 $64,405 $36,070

(I apologize, this was a nice table, but you can still read across number values and years from 2004-2012)

What's the source on this?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Anyone been having any luck with the Idoneth deepkin? I fell in love with this faction but I can see it’s age when compared to the newest books. I will say that I been having mixed results when using a squad of 3 allopex’s since the book dropped, but sometimes I don’t feel like we hit as hard as we should.

I've tried running a mostly namarti list, and I have to say, I've been chewed to bits with that. I suspect if it was a eel list, i'd have more luck. Still low survivability, but at least they can pick their fights far easier than 20-strong blobs of infantry.

A namarti focused list can work with more-fan afaik. It will be dismantled by power lists but that is the nature of army tiers; tier 2 will demolish you if you aren't optimizing, and tier 1 will demolish you if you aren't one of them.

Thats a good time.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A namarti focused list can work with more-fan afaik. It will be dismantled by power lists but that is the nature of army tiers; tier 2 will demolish you if you aren't optimizing, and tier 1 will demolish you if you aren't one of them.

It would help if the Namarti where more powerful to be honest. They are so squishy, and while they have great profiles I think that they need more range on their weapons before they can do anything. I don’t know how Fyreslayers can be a horde army on 32mms and do well, but it seems that the Namarti cannot.

As someone that play IDK for a long time and even won tournaments with them, honestly the Namarti are very squishy, but well costed as they can't be shot at, can run and charge, and fight first even (depending on tides and deployment, etc..). They are a 1 hit wonder and you shouldn't be scared to throw them away or sac them to turn the tables.

If it wasn't for the Tides, can't be shot at, then i would think they are way over costed, especially when comparing to Bestigors (0 man, 2 atks, -1,1D, 4+ save, can hit on 3+, can get rr's, and can get +1 atks without trying, basically fight 10+ units or charge to get buffs, and they are 120pts).

I tell the couple new IDK local players all the time, don't be scared to lose Namarti units. Its better they die than Eels or a King.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A namarti focused list can work with more-fan afaik. It will be dismantled by power lists but that is the nature of army tiers; tier 2 will demolish you if you aren't optimizing, and tier 1 will demolish you if you aren't one of them.

It would help if the Namarti where more powerful to be honest. They are so squishy, and while they have great profiles I think that they need more range on their weapons before they can do anything. I don’t know how Fyreslayers can be a horde army on 32mms and do well, but it seems that the Namarti cannot.

Note that the best fyreslayer lists have no vulkites and run almost exclusively hearthguard 'zerkers. They are 120 points for 5 models that are an effective 4w each; that is a completely different beast from Namarti.

Also remember that while squishy you can protect them with Idoneth shenanigans as Amish mentioned, and that they still hit like trucks. It takes a very durable enemy to be able to disregard them.

Fair points all around! I personally never really gave them a chance, so what I said was just casual observation.

I have a full army of just Dohm-hain akhelians, which have been doing well but could get better. I have started playing with a soul scryer recently and been wondering if a squad of 9 with him would be better than two squads of 3 and 6?

 EnTyme wrote:
What's the source on this?

Does it matter? It's 8 years out of date. Just a snapshot of history at this point.

I played it slightly differently, i had 1 Soulscryer, King, Tidecaster, 1x9 Morrsarr, 1x6 morrsarr, 2x3 Ishlaen, 2x10 Thralls, 1x10 Reavers for 1990pts

So almost normal list, but i like Reavers, the ability to have 1 unit sit back and stop DSing and still at least deal damage is important to me, i use Ishlaen eels to tie up units and take important charges off my Morrsarr or to stop turn 1 alpha shooting like DoT, KO, and CoS.

I used to run Royal Council with a Tidecaster general to reverse the tides and turn 1 spent 3CP to give 3 units +9" able to run and charge. This is still possible and still is good, but now with FS and OBR, i'm not sure if its really viable is i stopped playing it.

EDIT: Grammar, spelling. English bad for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add, and yes vs some armies that are made to tank and spank, you will feel that you don't deal enough damage, that is where its hard to play IDK, you need to know when and where to deal you damage. If you missplay you will lose a unit easily. So it does take a bit to learn what you can and cannot handle. That is the highest learning curve for IDK i feel. We have 2 new local IDK players and they both are struggling with that now. When fighting some armies like FS, Ogre/BCR, OBR, etc.. yeah you will make a few mistakes the first few times you play them, but its good that why you know what works and doesn't works.

For me my biggest problem honestly was Skaven, i couldn't get past the clan rats fast enough b.c i have such low amount of units to deal damage, i have a 40/60 win/lost vs them, so i lost more than i won vs skaven. It also doesn't help the only skaven players i know are very good at playing them and i say they are better players than i am.