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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
...Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it...

How are you proposing to distinguish Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/etc?

Squad number only.

As in "Squad #5 is actually Plague Marines"

No caps. No distinguishing bases. None of that. I

It's an Codex Ultramarine army "count as" Chaos Space Marines.

So are the weapons actually not correct, or are you just choosing not to use sonic weapons/blight launchers/chainaxes/etc?

I'm really inclined to say "no" here given that you're breaking the cardinal rule of proxies (avoid confusion, ex. don't use the same model to represent two different units).

To clarify, the models are built entirely with loyalist Space Marine parts, painted to a "perfect" Codex Ultramarines standard. No actual CSM bitz. Everything looks *exactly* like Codex Ultramarines. 'Eavy Metal couldn't do a better job with Ultramarines.

Opponent claims that it's not at all confusing, because each unit is clearly identified, etc. etc. Whether they are telling the truth, you can't say. If you expect SM behavior, despite the list saying CSM, that's your fault for not remembering what's what.

Welp, someone notify Poe. We've got a live one...

Bharring wrote:
Lets reduce this further:

-Pawns are Tacs
-Rooks are Devs (Lascannons)
-Knights are ASMs
-Bishops are Rhinos
-Queens are Libbys
-Kings are Chapter Masters

With the proper specials/heavies painted on.

Nobody would call that WYSIWG. Technically, there'd be no difficulty playing against that army. Practically, I'm not interested in playing against that army.

Fails the requirement for GW models.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Lets reduce this further:

-Pawns are Tacs
-Rooks are Devs (Lascannons)
-Knights are ASMs
-Bishops are Rhinos
-Queens are Libbys
-Kings are Chapter Masters

With the proper specials/heavies painted on.

Nobody would call that WYSIWG. Technically, there'd be no difficulty playing against that army. Practically, I'm not interested in playing against that army.

Fails the requirement for GW models.

I've never played where that's a requirement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Spoiler:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
...Throughout the game, you'll have to remember that the entire army is actually Chaos Space Marine Renegades, and that particular squads are actually Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Marked. But the opponent claims that the army is WYSIWYG, and gave you a copy of their list, so they say you should accept it...

How are you proposing to distinguish Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/etc?

Squad number only.

As in "Squad #5 is actually Plague Marines"

No caps. No distinguishing bases. None of that. I

It's an Codex Ultramarine army "count as" Chaos Space Marines.

So are the weapons actually not correct, or are you just choosing not to use sonic weapons/blight launchers/chainaxes/etc?

I'm really inclined to say "no" here given that you're breaking the cardinal rule of proxies (avoid confusion, ex. don't use the same model to represent two different units).

To clarify, the models are built entirely with loyalist Space Marine parts, painted to a "perfect" Codex Ultramarines standard. No actual CSM bitz. Everything looks *exactly* like Codex Ultramarines. 'Eavy Metal couldn't do a better job with Ultramarines.

Opponent claims that it's not at all confusing, because each unit is clearly identified, etc. etc. Whether they are telling the truth, you can't say. If you expect SM behavior, despite the list saying CSM, that's your fault for not remembering what's what.

Specifically on the "Opponent claims that it's not at all confusing":
How is that any different from "Opponent claims that $icon is a 1 and $otherIcon is a 6 on his dice"?

One player is making a claim. The other disagrees. Go to dispute resolution.

In a tourny, dispute resolution includes calling in a TO.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
In light of what you said later, no this is not acceptable at all.

Yeah, either Nathan Poe would like a word or dude really is serious and honestly thinks this is okay.

This is an example of the only way I'd be okay with it (can't find the ones I was thinking of. It sticks so vividly in my mind, that DP painted in ultramarine blue with a yellow trim...) as it is still WYSIWYG yet messes with your opponent's preconceptions about what a CM army should "look" like.

Over half of the voters in the poll think it's OK to do this when $1,000 in hard cash is on the line. From the various threads, they seem to be dead set serious about it.

That's not at all what I'm talking about. That is a conversion with CSM bitz. 'm talking about someone saying that this is a Chaos Space Marine force:


And for the record, a Khorne Berzerker army using 100% Black Templars models and bitz is totally viable if you paint the armor red instead of black. Just sayin'

I got a sneaking suspicion that the majority who voted "Yes" didn't bother to read the entirety of OPs first post, and especially not his last couple of posts.

The more he posts about this, the firmer my "No" becomes.
When a unit of Tactical Marines with regular marine weaponry, but with a "5" on their shoulder pads are meant to be count-as Plague Marines, we're way past WYSIWYG. Now we're deep into proxxy-territory.
Now apply this to the entire army, and you'll end up having some very confused opponents who probably wonder what the heck kind of tournament they signed up for.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


It's a Tournament with a $1,000 CASH PRIZE, not a pickup game at your local table.

I read your OP, and I replied: In a tournament I'd say "No", but in a friendly game I wouldn't mind.

Squad number only.

As in "Squad #5 is actually Plague Marines"

No caps. No distinguishing bases. None of that.

As above, now we're deep into proxxy-territory, and you'll end up with some very confused opponents.

They will probably hear you say "the squad with 2's are Berzerkers, the squad with 4's are Rubricae and the squad with 5's are Plague Marines", but several times during the game they will forget what's what, and make mistakes based solely on the fact that you're proxxying your entire list. Players see those Assault Marines and consider them to be a lesser threat, and then when it's too late they'll remember "Oh sh** right, they where Berzerkers. I just lost the game."

Alot of tactical decisions in this game is made by overlooking the battlefield, specifically what enemy units are where. You're essentially tricking (not necessarily on purpose) your opponent when you proxxy an entire army in this way. Again, fine in friendly games, but if it was a tournament and I was a TO, I wouldn't allow it.

I didn't vote, because it didn't have an appropriate answer.

My answer is "No, because it's not WYSIWYG".

A Plague Marine is more than just a weapon-swapped CSM-same with Berserkers, same with TSons. (And kinda the same with Noise Marines, but they're pretty close.)

So, let me propose an amendment to your OP:

The list is:

Renegade Battalion

HQs
Chaos Lord (Bolt Pistol, Chainsword)-Represented by a Space Marine Captain with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
Chaos Sorcerer (Bolt Pistol, Force Sword)-Represented by a Space Marine Librarian with Bolt Pistol and Force Sword

Troops
5 Man Chaos Marine Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marines
5 Man Chaos Marine Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marines
5 Man Chaos Marine Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marines

Elites
Helrbute (Multi-Melta and Fist)-Represented by a Dreadnought with Multi-Melta and Fist
Helrbute (Multi-Melta and Fist)-Represented by a Dreadnought with Multi-Melta and Fist

Fast Attacks
4 Man Chaos Biker Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marine Bikers
4 Man Chaos Biker Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marine Bikers
3 Man Chaos Biker Squad (Stock)-Represented by stock Space Marine Bikers

Dedicated Transports
Chaos Rhino (Two Combi-Bolters)-Represented by a Space Marine Rhino with two Combi-Bolters
Chaos Rhino (Two Combi-Bolters)-Represented by a Space Marine Rhino with two Combi-Bolters

992 Points

So no Calgar counts-as, no Plague Marines or Khorne Berserker counts-as (which, for a WYSIWYG tournament with cash on the line, is inappropriate) just 100% sensible, WYSIWYG models painted Imperium instead of Chaos.

I would be 100% fine with THAT, because it's WYSIWYG. Your example... Is not.

Edit: Ignore the fact that this list sucks and would never see a victory in a big tournament, let alone top tables. Assume the list is actually decent, but still WYSIWYG.

Playing an official sanctioned paint scheme as something else is already hard enough to swallow but if someone showed up with a completely different model line trying to play it as another model line that would just be a bridge too far. In a tournament environment, it's completely inappropriate to say
"this squad to UM is actually noise marines and this one over here is bezerkers and I know this dreadnaught is actually a lord discordant..... and remember your on the clock because we have to get a full game in so make that shooting phase snappy"

 MinscS2 wrote:
I got a sneaking suspicion that the majority who voted "Yes" didn't bother to read the entirety of OPs first post, and especially not his last couple of posts.

OP's first post (unless it's been edited later to hide it) seemed to indicate this was basically a "proxy" army where everything was WYSIWYG except they were using Space Marines to represent Chaos Renegades, using Chaos Renegade rules. Which IMHO is acceptable, same like running Alpha Legion as Primaris marines if you use the correct rules and models. Their later posts changed this around to be essentially not WYSIWYG (squad markings to identify cult troops) and added a bunch of additional conditions which push it further towards No, as the first post ended up being incredibly misleading.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you were the Tournament Organizer, would you allow it?

Depends, how did I define WYSIWYG in the rule packet?

Short answer, after reading the first post? No.

Short answer, after reading the whole post? Abso-freakin-lutely not.

How different is this from the following:

- I love Kroot models, I hate Drukhai models.
- I've converted all the appropriate speacial weapons.
- The Kroot Guns count as <insert basic weapon here>
- I've made charcter conversions, so they visibly stand out.
- I've used the other Kroot, converted appropriately other units of similar size from the DE range.
- I've even included a handy sheet for my opponent, with pictures of the units and labels so they have that on hand.

My army is made of all Kroot models, but uses the DE rules.

 Blndmage wrote:
How different is this from the following:

- I love Kroot models, I hate Drukhai models.
- I've converted all the appropriate speacial weapons.
- The Kroot Guns count as <insert basic weapon here>
- I've made charcter conversions, so they visibly stand out.
- I've used the other Kroot, converted appropriately other units of similar size from the DE range.
- I've even included a handy sheet for my opponent, with pictures of the units and labels so they have that on hand.

My army is made of all Kroot models, but uses the DE rules.

I'd say reasonably different. A Marine is a Marine, but a Kroot is not a Dark Eldar.

Now, with sufficient work and skill, I'd 100% play it, but it'd take more than what Marine to Marine takes.

Honestly I'd be okay with a guy using tac marines as his chaos marines if his army was painted consistently.

Where I draw the lines is using tac marines as noise marines. That is where I would have to say no.

Wayniac wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I got a sneaking suspicion that the majority who voted "Yes" didn't bother to read the entirety of OPs first post, and especially not his last couple of posts.

OP's first post (unless it's been edited later to hide it) seemed to indicate this was basically a "proxy" army where everything was WYSIWYG except they were using Space Marines to represent Chaos Renegades, using Chaos Renegade rules. Which IMHO is acceptable, same like running Alpha Legion as Primaris marines if you use the correct rules and models. Their later posts changed this around to be essentially not WYSIWYG (squad markings to identify cult troops) and added a bunch of additional conditions which push it further towards No, as the first post ended up being incredibly misleading.

The edits to the first posts were to:
* add the Poll
* clarify it's counting as "Chaos Space Marines" vs "Chaos Renegades"
* request an opinion as TO vs player, for those players who didn't answer the question (they dodge by saying they would defer to the TO)

Nothing to hide.

The gist of it being an army that looks like Codex: Ultramarines, but plays as Codex: Chaos Space Marines has been the intended question the entire time.

I'd say no on the full army proxy.

It's one thing to paint up and convert loyalist models to be your chaos models.

It's another thing to have a full loyalist army that's not making an attempt to be anything other as CSM.

I would had voted no but this is a reductio at absurdum, specifically because what people discussed with you in the other thread was about using a paint scheme to represent another subfaction of the same codex not using an army of one codex to represent an army of other codex.


But I had a friend that has a core of Horus Heresy Space Marines painted blue and green that he uses as Alpha Legion or Dark Angels regularly (He also has DA units or Chaos untis like Dark Vengeance Chosen, Hellbrutes, etc... that uses based in what army hes playing, but the rhinos, basic csm/tacticals, devastators/havocs, land raiders, etc... are always the same) and I had 0 problems with that.

Also if somebody is using loyalist models to represent a CSM army but has them modeled, basically instead of Khorne Berzerkers he has a squad of loyalists veterans with decorations and chain axes, etc... I wouldn't have a problem.
A loyalist dreadnought can represent a hellbrute because I wouldn't say a guy with an old Chaos Dreadnought that he can't use it to represent and Hellbrute.

I would have no issue with it.

It's a strawman.

The discussion in the other thread went exceedingly badly for the OP so they created this thread in an attempt to redefine the discussion using moved goalposts.

As long as the player restricts his unit selection to things with a 1:1 correlation, I have no problem with it. Basic power armor guys with bolters/MLs/flamers etc. Librarians as sorcerers, hellbrutes as dreads, it’s all good.

Loyalist marines don’t have cult troops. Squad 7=plague marines is not acceptable, and not WYSWYG. A paint job is not enough to make that leap. On a related, slightly hypocritical point, I’d not have a problem with a tactical marine model with white trim and veteran markings being fielded as a sternguard. But plague marines are more then just gear and a paintjob. YMMV.

That said, if some extra effort was put into it, I might be swayed. Assault marines on foot are not khonre berserkers. Splash then heavily with BftBG, and toss a lot of skulls on their bases I might let it slide. Especially if nobody else in your army got that treatment. But that goes against the premise in the OP of “stock codex painjobs”

I didn’t vote, as my answer would be “Yes, but with some caveats"

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's a strawman.

The discussion in the other thread went exceedingly badly for the OP so they created this thread in an attempt to redefine the discussion using moved goalposts.

Yeah, and even then, most people is voting agaisnt what he was trying to argue in the other thread. Nearly nobody voted the option for "Only use Ultramarines as Ultramarines"

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'd say "No".

I'm not really an advocate of "WYSIWYG or die!", quite the opposite. I don't mind proxxying or if weapon-loadouts are count-as something else. (Not everyone want/knows how to magnetize, and far from everyone got the money to buy 1 of every loadout).

But essentially proxxying an entire army in a tournament, where several units look nothing like what they're acting as (more specifically proxxying the cult-troops with regular Ultramarines) would be confusing as heck, regardless if I had your armylist in hand or not.

I feel like at that point it's against the spirit of the game.
If someone wants to play CSM that bad, just get a CSM-army, or play them as Ultramarines.

I wouldn't mind this at all in a regular friendly game, but at a tournament I'd be quite surprised (and not in a good way) if I ended up facing a list like this.
With that said, I haven't attended a tournament in over 5 years, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter.

It's a Tournament with a $1,000 CASH PRIZE, not a pickup game at your local table.

According to the "paint doesn't matter crowd", Power Armor with the right weapons is WYSIWYG.

They simply want to play the strongest flavor of the month, rather than play what they painted, or build what they play.

OHHHHHHHH, this is a bad faith argument thread meant to let you "win" a different argument you're having in another unrelated thread that you want to use as ammunition.

I got it. I was confused at first as to why you were setting up this obvious "straw army" - you're actually trying to justify not allowing a person who's simply painted their army differently to play with the rules they want to use.

Newsflash dawg: Equivocating "paint" with "literally a different model" does not help you win that argument.

the_scotsman wrote:
OHHHHHHHH, this is a bad faith argument thread meant to let you "win" a different argument you're having in another unrelated thread that you want to use as ammunition.

Pretty much, especially since the argument is totally different.

You can't use SM models to represent CSM datasheets, RaW, so the answer is obviously no. But this is not the same question he was asking in the other thread. You can use SM models painted any way you want to represent SM datasheets.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
OHHHHHHHH, this is a bad faith argument thread meant to let you "win" a different argument you're having in another unrelated thread that you want to use as ammunition.

Pretty much, especially since the argument is totally different.

You can't use SM models to represent CSM datasheets, RaW, so the answer is obviously no. But this is not the same question he was asking in the other thread.

Yeah I was confused, i thought it was a hypothetical because I've run into jackasses who want to run like unpainted dreadnought torsos as carnifexes and intercessors as genestealers but I was like "this is a very strange and specific scenario RIIIIIIIIGHT on the edge of high effort hobbying and totally zero effort that guy-ery....I don't think this sounds like a thing that would actually occur."

Frankly he also misquoted my counterpoint so he could avoid to actually make an argument.

And most importantly he goes down a very Amusing path,

Namely IF to get a subfaction trait indeed of any faction, you would need to paint accordingly, all not known and unofficial paint shemes for any army would not be able to be used.

Forcing TO players into one specific paint scheme per army they intend to use.

He's deliberately twisting "paint doesn't matter" into "paint and model doesn't matter", which are in no way even remotely similar.

Didn’t we just do this thread?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Didn’t we just do this thread?

Yes and this one is here to serve as ammo, especially the poll part which is hilariously one sided.

If they have WYSIWYG gear and only use units that have pretty direct equivalents, then that is fine. There is even a fluff justification for it. I mean, certainly this is exactly how a loyalist army that has just switched sides would look like?

"This proxy army is totally WYSIWYG. Also, this squad of tactical marines carrying bolters are actually noise marines carrying sonic blasters, as you can clearly see by the number on their shoulder, which is definitely what WYSIWYG means."

Yeah, get outta here with that.