Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, what is the "correct" model to use and what is the "correct" datasheet, as written into the rules? Looking at the designers commentary spreadsheet, it would appear that I follow this sequence when I have a model I want to use:

1) Determine the identity of the model and the wargear it is equipped with.

2) look in the codex to see if that model with that wargear is supported.

3) if the model or wargear is not in the codex, look in the index to see if the wargear/model is supported there.

4) If that model with that wargear is not supported in index or codex, either the model cannot be used or it must be used as something different.

While I get what you are saying, technically you need to look for a datasheet for your model first, disregarding the wargear. Afterwards you check if any wargear that is not in the codex can be applied through the index rules.

If I buy a Space Marine Captain model, and I use the Thunder Hammer bit from the Space Wolves kit, RAW I can use that model as a Space Marine captain with Thunder Hammer out of Codex: Space Marines, OR I can choose to use him as a Wolf Lord with Thunder Hammer from Codex: Space Wolves. The decision of what datasheet to use the model as is not dictated to me by the rules.

It kind of is. For example, you cannot use your converted model as an ironclad dreadnought with hammer since that datasheet obviously doesn't represent your model.

There is some black, some white and lots of grey in that regard.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can't do it because you must use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.

If you're going to ignore the RaW, you have to allow ignoring EVERYTHING, there is no middle ground.

This may come as a surprise to you but you don't have to allow anything. There's a social contract and common sense element to gaming as well as just the rules and this is a perfect example of the situation where such nuance would apply. There are certainly degrees of acceptability for conversions and proxies and they will differ on an individual basis. But there is a middle ground, whether you like it or not.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can't do it because you must use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.

If you're going to ignore the RaW, you have to allow ignoring EVERYTHING, there is no middle ground.

I'm worried that you think I'm arguing for proxy armies in tournaments, which I am not.

A friendly reminder that I did say the following in my original post:

Edit: to be clear, this position is based on this hard-line example. There is obviously a little wiggle room for practicalities in other circumstances

And the following my clarification/follow-up:

And to be clear, this is only ever acceptable to me in casual play, not tournament.

I only added the proxy army bit after the edit in my original in the first place to explain that while I have a hard line "no thanks" attitude towards proxy armies in both tournaments and casual games, that in casual games I am willing to observe the "most important rule" and play with proxy/converted models if they're in the spirit of the hobby as I see it (i.e. looks cool, not just gaming the rules), provided both parties are aware of it going in. It was not meant to undermine my actual response to the question posed by the thread.

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can't do it because you must use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.

If you're going to ignore the RaW, you have to allow ignoring EVERYTHING, there is no middle ground.

This may come as a surprise to you but you don't have to allow anything. There's a social contract and common sense element to gaming as well as just the rules and this is a perfect example of the situation where such nuance would apply. There are certainly degrees of acceptability for conversions and proxies and they will differ on an individual basis. But there is a middle ground, whether you like it or not.

And I disagree. You can't allow some rulebreaking and prohibit others.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can't do it because you must use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.

If you're going to ignore the RaW, you have to allow ignoring EVERYTHING, there is no middle ground.

This may come as a surprise to you but you don't have to allow anything. There's a social contract and common sense element to gaming as well as just the rules and this is a perfect example of the situation where such nuance would apply. There are certainly degrees of acceptability for conversions and proxies and they will differ on an individual basis. But there is a middle ground, whether you like it or not.

And I disagree. You can't allow some rulebreaking and prohibit others.

But you can accept some rules and not others.

Cops usually let you travel +1 mph over the posted limit. But there's almost no way they'll ignore you going +30 mph over the posted limit - so, clearly, it is possible to permit some actions and prohibit others.

Similarly, most people have more of a sliding scale as to what they find acceptable with respect to WYSIWYG.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can't do it because you must use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.

If you're going to ignore the RaW, you have to allow ignoring EVERYTHING, there is no middle ground.

This may come as a surprise to you but you don't have to allow anything. There's a social contract and common sense element to gaming as well as just the rules and this is a perfect example of the situation where such nuance would apply. There are certainly degrees of acceptability for conversions and proxies and they will differ on an individual basis. But there is a middle ground, whether you like it or not.

And I disagree. You can't allow some rulebreaking and prohibit others.

Yes you can. The purpose of playing Warhammer 40,000 is for both players to have an enjoyable couple of hours. If that time is made more enjoyable by ignoring some of the rules but not others (one example that springs to mind is rules for woodland areas - I've used the 4th edition WFB rules for forests in various editions of 40k, Infinity, Warmachine, and some other games you've probably never heard of) then so much the better.

... which is where you no doubt witter on about saying all your models have fifty million Wounds each. Sure, go ahead and say that. However, since I doubt that would result in an enjoyable game for both players, I'd refuse the game and read a book. If you find someone who is happy with that house rule, crack on.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yes you can. The purpose of playing Warhammer 40,000 is for both players to have an enjoyable couple of hours. If that time is made more enjoyable by ignoring some of the rules but not others (one example that springs to mind is rules for woodland areas - I've used the 4th edition WFB rules for forests in various editions of 40k, Infinity, Warmachine, and some other games you've probably never heard of) then so much the better.

... which is where you no doubt witter on about saying all your models have fifty million Wounds each. Sure, go ahead and say that. However, since I doubt that would result in an enjoyable game for both players, I'd refuse the game and read a book. If you find someone who is happy with that house rule, crack on.

Yeah, I just want to play the game by the rules. I'm such a bad person!

Still waiting on you actually providing a source within the rules that actually says "THOU SHALT USETH ONLY THE MODELS AS THEY ARE SUPPLIED WITHIN THINE PLASTIC KITS."

It is pretty clear to me from an actual reading the rules that, since the current collection of datasheets support many instances of datasheets that fit multiple kits, kits that fit multiple datasheets, and datasheets that correspond to no official kits, this is intended by the rules designers as a subjective system to allow players to determine for themselves which datasheets best fit the models they have.

What is the official model I must use for the commissar with power axe that they reference in the designer's commentary spreadsheet? What is the official datasheet that I must use for a box of MKIII power armor space marines? I can't find a datasheet that corresponds to the Deathwatch Upgrade Sprue that I can purchase from GW, but I seem to have all these datasheets for Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans, Deathwatch Bikers Watch Captains, I'm not sure what to do!

Save me, strict interpretation of the rules as written! Guide me in this troubling time? Shall I be forced into the hideous degeneracy that is gaming as a social activity, ungoverned by the legalistic certainty of definitive rules documentation?

@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

[Citation Needed]

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

Not sure if trolling, but Black & Bone Aspects are not necessarily Uthwe. Aspects are often (usually) not painted in Craftworld colors.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
[Citation Needed]

...in this mess of a thread? For which bit?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
[Citation Needed]

...in this mess of a thread? For which bit?

All of it!

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

While I have a custom chapter since I didn't want to get locked in by existing back story, do people really expect players to be locked in based on a paint scheme? If someone likes UM colors but wants to use RG rules I don't see why anyone would take issue with that.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

That’s nice and all that you want my ultramarine colored models to be ultramarines but today I’m
Playing crimson fist. Show me the rules or tournament rule that prevents this. Citation and references. And last 3 jobs you held. Can’t? Bummer..

Dysartes wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
[Citation Needed]

...in this mess of a thread? For which bit?

I'd particularly like to see the wording of the WYSIWYG non-rule that imposes restrictions on your paint-job, despite not existing.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

That’s nice and all that you want my ultramarine colored models to be ultramarines but today I’m
Playing crimson fist. Show me the rules or tournament rule that prevents this. Citation and references. And last 3 jobs you held. Can’t? Bummer..

First mistake: Painting your power armour dudes in smurf colour.
Second mistake: Hopping the bandwagon.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

So no ultramarines have ever gone rogue, renegade or other? Or someone using there own chapter symbles on a classic colour marine?
This is common And basic narratives used.
And what if someone chooses to run a custom chapter. Sorry you painted them wrong, don’t get to play in the tournament. Glad you ignored th context there. There are on Eldar transfer sheets a craftworld or two often depicted with no rules of there own. What do those players do ?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

That’s nice and all that you want my ultramarine colored models to be ultramarines but today I’m
Playing crimson fist. Show me the rules or tournament rule that prevents this. Citation and references. And last 3 jobs you held. Can’t? Bummer..

First mistake: Painting your power armour dudes in smurf colour.
Second mistake: Hopping the bandwagon.

Mistake? Why is it a mistake? Cause you can’t tell me I CANT play as crimson fists, or raven gurd or whatever. Show me the rule please as you have been asked to cite it

Apple fox wrote:

Spoiler:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

So no ultramarines have ever gone rogue, renegade or other? Or someone using there own chapter symbles on a classic colour marine?
This is common And basic narratives used.
And what if someone chooses to run a custom chapter. Sorry you painted them wrong, don’t get to play in the tournament. Glad you ignored th context there. There are on Eldar transfer sheets a craftworld or two often depicted with no rules of there own. What do those players do ?

I think the more nuanced view is that Ultramarines that went rogue and turned into chainaxe-swinging blood-crazed berserkers aren't running around with Boltgun/Boltpistol in their shiny perfectly-maintained dress blues.

Ultramarines that went rogue and turned into chainaxe-swinging blood-crazed berserkers should look like blood-crazed berserkers in some way. Not just up-blingged Tac Marines.

Because Chaosified UltraMarines can and have been done well. But vanilla UltraMarines built and painted as traditional Loyalist units aren't Zerkers or Cult Troops or Posessed or such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For context, reread the OPs posts. He's not talking about "THis tac squad is a CSM troop Marine squad". He's talking about "This boltgun is a BlastMaster, and that one is a chainaxe, and that one is a Demon Prince".

Bharring wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Spoiler:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

* Tournament Rules require fully WYSIWYG armies, no exceptions

There you have your answer. If some smurfs show up and want to behave all of a sudden like Black Legion, the rules say this:

NOPE, you bandwagon hopping Spike.

Actually WYSIWYG refers to weapon load outs. If you show up, have an entire painted crimson fist army, but you wanna play as black legion and everything is equipped properly and your print out army lists reflect the correct builds, rules, weapons, and the fact it’s black legion, then there is nothing your opponent can say. Even in a tournament setting. For example, I have Ulthwé painted crimson hunters in my ailaitoc Force, but play them as ailaitoc. Guess what? I get to use the as the -1 to hit in tournies. I’ve had an opponent whine, but I was ok’d but the TO’s.

I am not colour blind. WYSIWYG covers the wargear AND the paint job. When I see smurfs they are smurfs and not Black Legion in disguise.

At this point, painting off colour would be a huge advantage. Or I could imagine a TO not being popular if they turned away players not using a GW sanctioned colour scheme.
There are a few craft worlds not represented by rules as well, but even get onto Eldar transfer sheets.
This gets towards a race to the worst of the hobby, when you start to rule out the hobby as well. :(
Renegade ultramarines could be fun as well, particularly if a player regularly has marine opponents running something similar.

There is even more to a colour scheme which is the chapter symbol on the shoulder pad. So any smurf with the appropriate symbol is an Ultramarine. There is absolutely no room for discussion about it. Anybody who refrains from using any kind of chapter insignia just to be able to hop on to the latest bandwagon with glee needs to be told so and barred from participating in said tournament.

Renegade Ultramarines? LOL, give me a break! What a pathetic excuse to abuse the latest shiny rules from GW to get an advantage over anyone who is attending the tourney.

So no ultramarines have ever gone rogue, renegade or other? Or someone using there own chapter symbles on a classic colour marine?
This is common And basic narratives used.
And what if someone chooses to run a custom chapter. Sorry you painted them wrong, don’t get to play in the tournament. Glad you ignored th context there. There are on Eldar transfer sheets a craftworld or two often depicted with no rules of there own. What do those players do ?

I think the more nuanced view is that Ultramarines that went rogue and turned into chainaxe-swinging blood-crazed berserkers aren't running around with Boltgun/Boltpistol in their shiny perfectly-maintained dress blues.

Ultramarines that went rogue and turned into chainaxe-swinging blood-crazed berserkers should look like blood-crazed berserkers in some way. Not just up-blingged Tac Marines.

Because Chaosified UltraMarines can and have been done well. But vanilla UltraMarines built and painted as traditional Loyalist units aren't Zerkers or Cult Troops or Posessed or such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For context, reread the OPs posts. He's not talking about "THis tac squad is a CSM troop Marine squad". He's talking about "This boltgun is a BlastMaster, and that one is a chainaxe, and that one is a Demon Prince".

Depends entirely on the fel for the player, like other things. It’s used as a fairly basic example. But I could imagine for a group of space marines, getting paint and a skilled enough arrest would not be a issue if they needed to keep up aperances.
And if it’s goung to the point of conversions for none mraine units that is completely different.

Again this is specificaly why I bring up the craftworld as well. You can get transfer sheets from GW that are not related to rules from what I know. Unless forgot world does them :p
I did read the OP post, it’s fairly absurd and seems intent to create disagreement. Since it seems to be trying for two different things. WYSIWYG would mean at least some modifications to get weapons and upgrades for cult troops. But to take it as far as having to paint the correct symbles to even get into the tournament would be crazy as well.
There is no easy awnswer to this as presented. But marines are marine enough in a good deal of cases. I have never got a chaos kit for my chaos marines and run them 100% to WYSIWYG with full conversions where needed. But would run them as normal marines now, with it all falling in line there with doing the work to convert again if I had to.

Also I was replying specifically to the paint being part of WYSIWYG part of discussion.

Apple fox wrote:
I did read the OP post, it’s fairly absurd and seems intent to create disagreement.

That's because the notion *is* absurd, at least from my POV.

Of course, it's just the flip side of when CSM players played as Space Woofs, because that Codex was "better".

Fact is, people *do* chase Codices, and it *is* ridiculous when they're doing it with an army that is clearly modeled and painted as some other Codex army. My POV, of course.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I did read the OP post, it’s fairly absurd and seems intent to create disagreement.

That's because the notion *is* absurd, at least from my POV.

Of course, it's just the flip side of when CSM players played as Space Woofs, because that Codex was "better".

Fact is, people *do* chase Codices, and it *is* ridiculous when they're doing it with an army that is clearly modeled and painted as some other Codex army. My POV, of course.

Except that there's a world of difference between "This Space Marine squad with bolters and bolt pistols is actually a CSM squad with bolters and bolt pistols, and this Dreadnought with a Fist and Multi Melta is a Helbrute with a Fist and Multi Melta," and what you presented.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I did read the OP post, it’s fairly absurd and seems intent to create disagreement.

That's because the notion *is* absurd, at least from my POV.

Of course, it's just the flip side of when CSM players played as Space Woofs, because that Codex was "better".

Fact is, people *do* chase Codices, and it *is* ridiculous when they're doing it with an army that is clearly modeled and painted as some other Codex army. My POV, of course.

Except that there's a world of difference between "This Space Marine squad with bolters and bolt pistols is actually a CSM squad with bolters and bolt pistols, and this Dreadnought with a Fist and Multi Melta is a Helbrute with a Fist and Multi Melta," and what you presented.

I disagree.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I did read the OP post, it’s fairly absurd and seems intent to create disagreement.

That's because the notion *is* absurd, at least from my POV.

Of course, it's just the flip side of when CSM players played as Space Woofs, because that Codex was "better".

Fact is, people *do* chase Codices, and it *is* ridiculous when they're doing it with an army that is clearly modeled and painted as some other Codex army. My POV, of course.

Except that there's a world of difference between "This Space Marine squad with bolters and bolt pistols is actually a CSM squad with bolters and bolt pistols, and this Dreadnought with a Fist and Multi Melta is a Helbrute with a Fist and Multi Melta," and what you presented.

I disagree.

And I find THAT to be absurd.

So your essentially hobbling anyone that wants to paint their guys as a named chapter (particularly a first founding one) versus someone who paints their models in a custom scheme allowing them to still do what you described aka chase codexes. How a model is painted or if it is painted at all has never had any impact on the game rule wise. How would you treat someone who showed up with a based black army?

Taking this one step forward how would you treat IG players? GW essentially doesn't sell many of the regiments that now have traits.

This entire discussion is based on a contradicting opening statement. It it impossible to have the correct gear for cult marines with LSM only models. A CSM squad in MK4 armor from betrayal at calth is the same model as LSM in MK4 armor though so it is differently possible to have the right gear well just having paint be the difference. Unless you want faction lock mk4 armor I don't think the question is being presented in an honest manor when they very well could even be using the right models.