Big FAQ - What do you want to see?

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**chimeara**

BaconCatBug wrote:
The Forgemaster wrote:
All you need to do to fix knights is when taking them in an Aux Super Heavy detachment i.e. only 1 knight, is make it so that this can only be a freeblade, i.e. no House Raven etc. available. this would limit some of the stratagems that super-buff the knights...
Or make it so that Super Heavy Aux doesn't unlock stratagems. If you want to rotate dem onion shields you gotta commit to 3 knights.

I like both ideas. They seem simple yet effective.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not? The entire point of my post was to point out how they are pretty much the same in terms of effectiveness, so it makes the most sense for both to be 5ppm.

I'm also a bit confused by your math here.

55 points for IS...so you're doing 1IS and 1/2 of a company commander? Then would that not be 37 S3 shots with FRSFRF?

and you're saying the neophytes here are at with 2 heavy stubbers and a web pistol, and you're granting them a subfaction trait because we're talking about Bladed Cog as well as an aura from a 75pt model, but I'm not seeing you including a subfaction trait for the company commander, and you're also not including any of the cost of the jackal alphus in their ability.

Also, many people are always quick to point out "but the company commander only buffs 2 units! The Jackal buffs any number of units because it's got an aura!" but they ignore the extra limitations on the alphus that does not exist on the CC.

The Alphus is limited to one per detachment, and if you're mixing detachments (say, because you want to pretend every GSC army has access to CTFAE charge bonuses and vect but you also want to pretend every bike squad is going to have the Rusted Claw stratagem and every Neophyte squad is going to have bladed cog) then her buff can only affect a fraction of your army. Also, her buff selects a single enemy unit to grant the hit bonus against, which works fine if your whole army is trying to shoot one single unit. But if you're up against something crazy that you never see in competitive play like six different infantry squads, the second you shoot one squad to death, your buff goes away.

Also if you want to get REAL technical, company commanders actually have faster movement than Jackal Alphus' if you use one of their orders on Move Move Move . Yes, she's got herself a sniper rifle that is 1/2 as effective as that most auto-include of space marine special characters, Sergeant Telion, and we all know what a terror of competitive play he's been, so something 1/2 as effective...wow, that's definitely something to be factoring in!

Just want to point that out in case anyone has forgotten that imperial guard basic infantry can all just decide to move faster than cars, jet packs, and motorcycles if they want to.

Oh - I'm not attacking you or anything. I just wanted to temper language.

Yes - half a CC. 37 at 12", but they're not usually around for that. Cadians keep them still. Catachans MMM like jerks. MMM is great - better than deepstrike is some regards, but DS is pretty flexible, too.

The math is sans Jackal, because I'm not entirely certain she would be used to buff shooting against something they want to shoot unless they're carrying mini-mining lasers. The Jackal isn't a stellar sniper, but Sanctus and her can knock out some CCs reasonably well.

If you're going to evaluate two units, evaluate them at the same range...so if you're going to do the infantry squad at 24", that neophyte squad gets....carry the one....

3 shots at S3, 6 shots at S4.

**Dysartes**

Not Online!!! wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:
Personally, I'd like for renegades to be a playable faction.

As most people are doubtlessly aware, renegades in general are horribly overcosted. Their GEQ troops cost as much as guardsmen for a worse save, worse BS and WS, unreliable (but lower on average) leadership, and. Those troops also don't get orders, or chapter tactics, or anything else worth noting. Their cultists are worse than the CSM cultists, for the same points. Their heavy weapons teams pay the same points cost as guard teams for their guns.. but have all the same issues as the standard GEQ troops.

Lastly, their rules don't even function. Entries refer to weapons lists which don't exist (Enforcers can choose from a non-existent pistol list..), weapons their entry cannot take, and plenty of other problems.

Dropping their Militia cost by 1-2 PPM, making functional weapon lists, and reducing the cost for most of their weapons would make them a functional force. They'd still be objectively worse than almost all armies due to a lack of chapter tactics & stratagems, but they'd at least be playable in a literal sense and semi-reasonably costed.

Summed up pretty well, same can be applied to Corsairs aswell.

I have no objection to the army lists from the FW Index books getting a revision so they work (or so they make a bit more sense, in some cases) - I seem to recall that, as the story goes, no-one told FW about 8th edition until really late in the day, so they had to rush to produce the four books.

What I would object to is Chaos suddenly gaining the vast majority of at least four books of Imperial units, while still having 4 (technically 5) books of their own...

**Mr Morden**

Dysartes wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:
Personally, I'd like for renegades to be a playable faction.

As most people are doubtlessly aware, renegades in general are horribly overcosted. Their GEQ troops cost as much as guardsmen for a worse save, worse BS and WS, unreliable (but lower on average) leadership, and. Those troops also don't get orders, or chapter tactics, or anything else worth noting. Their cultists are worse than the CSM cultists, for the same points. Their heavy weapons teams pay the same points cost as guard teams for their guns.. but have all the same issues as the standard GEQ troops.

Lastly, their rules don't even function. Entries refer to weapons lists which don't exist (Enforcers can choose from a non-existent pistol list..), weapons their entry cannot take, and plenty of other problems.

Dropping their Militia cost by 1-2 PPM, making functional weapon lists, and reducing the cost for most of their weapons would make them a functional force. They'd still be objectively worse than almost all armies due to a lack of chapter tactics & stratagems, but they'd at least be playable in a literal sense and semi-reasonably costed.

Summed up pretty well, same can be applied to Corsairs aswell.

I have no objection to the army lists from the FW Index books getting a revision so they work (or so they make a bit more sense, in some cases) - I seem to recall that, as the story goes, no-one told FW about 8th edition until really late in the day, so they had to rush to produce the four books.

What I would object to is Chaos suddenly gaining the vast majority of at least four books of Imperial units, while still having 4 (technically 5) books of their own...

Why - Imperials would still have Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle (plus Silence if that ever comes out) for their own books.

**Karol**

Those factions would probably have some rules in the form of models with faction Custodes, SoS and GK can never lose their imperial trait to gain the chaos, heretic astartes or demon trait.

**Mr Morden**

Karol wrote:
Those factions would probably have some rules in the form of models with faction Custodes, SoS and GK can never lose their imperial trait to gain the chaos, heretic astartes or demon trait.

That would be my point.

Couple this with a huge consoldation of the vast amount of duplicaiton and pretend unique units in the Marine codexes and that would be a great step forward.

**Karol**

named heros could also be done in a simular way. Either give them traits they can change. Or rename them in to stuff like heroic mounted space marine lord, and give the unit the option to either be a DW or Logan. Weapon options would be HMSML can either have a twin AC and HB or a Heroic weapon of Space Mariness. Foot HQs could be done the same. In fact it would help to bring the primaris version of the units more up front, as they with their new models every now and then, would be given a bigger plathora of rules.

A normal marine high apothecary would just be a way to play Corbulon, while primaris apothecaries could come with 2-3 different non weapon options. One could heal more wounds, other could be better at resurecting etc Both could be done with same models and maybe some arm or back pack change. no one would have to force people to pick up primaris, people would be doing it just because the units have better or more rules.

**Not Online!!!**

Dysartes wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
morganfreeman wrote:
Personally, I'd like for renegades to be a playable faction.

As most people are doubtlessly aware, renegades in general are horribly overcosted. Their GEQ troops cost as much as guardsmen for a worse save, worse BS and WS, unreliable (but lower on average) leadership, and. Those troops also don't get orders, or chapter tactics, or anything else worth noting. Their cultists are worse than the CSM cultists, for the same points. Their heavy weapons teams pay the same points cost as guard teams for their guns.. but have all the same issues as the standard GEQ troops.

Lastly, their rules don't even function. Entries refer to weapons lists which don't exist (Enforcers can choose from a non-existent pistol list..), weapons their entry cannot take, and plenty of other problems.

Dropping their Militia cost by 1-2 PPM, making functional weapon lists, and reducing the cost for most of their weapons would make them a functional force. They'd still be objectively worse than almost all armies due to a lack of chapter tactics & stratagems, but they'd at least be playable in a literal sense and semi-reasonably costed.

Summed up pretty well, same can be applied to Corsairs aswell.

I have no objection to the army lists from the FW Index books getting a revision so they work (or so they make a bit more sense, in some cases) - I seem to recall that, as the story goes, no-one told FW about 8th edition until really late in the day, so they had to rush to produce the four books.

What I would object to is Chaos suddenly gaining the vast majority of at least four books of Imperial units, while still having 4 (technically 5) books of their own...

If done propperly a reworked IA13 with more options depending on demagogue and the issue would be solved, not even a need for traitor guard etc.

Again if done propper

**Marin**

I would really like assassin nerfs, what they released is beyond stupid.

**Tyel**

Darsath wrote:
To be fair, their abilities once they're in combat aren't that bad. Sure they die very easily, but they do get re-rolls to wound which makes them effective vs infantry. The problem is more around how they die quickly and have zero synergies within the codex. It's kind of a problem with Necrons as a whole though, not specifically flayed ones.

There are some synergies, they just don't really help.
For example go Novokh for reroll hits. Go implacable conqueror for reroll charges. Use Veil of Darkness for a first turn charge or deep strike for a second turn charge (probably into a screen but thems the breaks). Activate disruption fields if facing T4 or T5 to make them S5 for 1CP.
3 attacks, rerolling hits, rerolling wounds.
The problem is you have no AP. So against regular old Tacticals/CSM, you are only getting 3*8/9*8/9*1/3=0.79 dead. Equals 10.27 points. For 17 points equals 60% return on your points. Against Guardsmen (sorry) its just 37% return on your points.
Which is pretty terrible for an all in synergised assault unit, that even with rerolls will fail a 9" charge about half the time.

So yeah. They either need to be about 12-13 points, or have more attacks/some AP. Or they need something like "from madness to murder, +2" to advance and charges". Potentially two of these.

I do find it interesting that we seem to be moving towards 7th edition, where any assault unit which doesn't have numerous special abilities to mitigate the base charge/overwatch rules is rubbish.

Its something for a new edition - but "if you fail a charge, you still move forward that many inches forward" would potentially be a major change to the game.

**Cynista**

When you look at Necron points costs post-CA, they are now largely similar to 7th edition. Flayed Ones are one of the big outliers though. They are both significantly more expensive and less effective than in 7th. On that basis alone you can make a strong argument that they need to be buffed as well as see a points reduction.

-12 points
- +1 attack
- roll 3d6, discard lowest when charging INFANTRY

or

-14 points
- +1 attack
- AP-1
- roll 3d6, discard lowest when charging INFANTRY

I'd be happy with either

**Wayniac**

BaconCatBug wrote:
The Forgemaster wrote:
All you need to do to fix knights is when taking them in an Aux Super Heavy detachment i.e. only 1 knight, is make it so that this can only be a freeblade, i.e. no House Raven etc. available. this would limit some of the stratagems that super-buff the knights...
Or make it so that Super Heavy Aux doesn't unlock stratagems. If you want to rotate dem onion shields you gotta commit to 3 knights.

This would be good. I'd rather see it apply to ALL detachments that don't have one shared keyword (other than Imperium, Chaos etc.) with the detachment your warlord is in. Same with traits and relics. So Marines and guard, one of those detachments aren't getting traits, relics or unlocking strategems.

He'll, I'd prefer it to be TWO keywords (so no mixing different chapters in an army and all get their traits) but that might be too extreme.

**The Newman**

Totally different track here, but I'd like to see an adjustment to sword and storm shield Custodes. As is the spear / misocordia combo is better and cheaper as well.

**Grand.Master.Raziel**

Well, these are probably more than would be addressed in an FAQ, but I'd like to see the following:

1: Get rid of the D3 almost entirely. It just doesn't produce enough of a range of variance to make it worth the time it takes. Retain it for Smite, but for shots and damage, just replace all instances of "d3" with "2"

2: All of the Warlord traits that allow a player to get back CP:
A: Either just have them grant a blanket bonus to CP
-or-
B: Get rid of them entirely

Again, a time-saving measure. Also the mechanic for them is fairly swingy, so sometimes it'll be awesome, other times it'll be useless. Having it just grant a set amount of bonus CP will make it consistent, and consistent across detachments too. But also, because CP are so important, no one playing competitively is ever going to take anything else. So I'm actually in favor of just getting rid of it entirely so people start using the other Warlord Traits.

**Sunny Side Up**

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Well, these are probably more than would be addressed in an FAQ, but I'd like to see the following:

1: Get rid of the D3 almost entirely. It just doesn't produce enough of a range of variance to make it worth the time it takes. Retain it for Smite, but for shots and damage, just replace all instances of "d3" with "2"

2: All of the Warlord traits that allow a player to get back CP:
A: Either just have them grant a blanket bonus to CP
-or-
B: Get rid of them entirely

Again, a time-saving measure. Also the mechanic for them is fairly swingy, so sometimes it'll be awesome, other times it'll be useless. Having it just grant a set amount of bonus CP will make it consistent, and consistent across detachments too. But also, because CP are so important, no one playing competitively is ever going to take anything else. So I'm actually in favor of just getting rid of it entirely so people start using the other Warlord Traits.

Bleh.

Variance is a big part of what makes 40K. If you feel like the game is taking too much time, you're playing too many points for the time you want to play.

**Phaeron Gukk**

Cynista wrote:
When you look at Necron points costs post-CA, they are now largely similar to 7th edition. Flayed Ones are one of the big outliers though.

It's probably because of "Muh Resin" tbh, and that's not going away until Necrons get an infantry-wide model update (Why do just FOs when Warriors and Immortals have such similar designs?), RIP.

Personally I think Reanimation Protocols needs an extra little side-buff so that it's not just useless at bigger games, without becoming even more oppressive at smaller games. 1 or 2CP to put a wiped unit onto the Tomb World instead?

**Martel732**

How about reanimation goes off after every unit shoots? That seems a little more terminator-like to me. But get rid of all the ways to buff it.

**Phaeron Gukk**

That might be more powerful, but taking away game interactions with your archetypal ability seems really off.
I like the Tomb World idea (saw it somewhere else) because it's a powerful ability (Tide of Traitors), but conditional on other models (Monoliths, Night Scythes etc.) that you can't really take in smaller games without sacrificing a bunch of other stuff.

The other option is to just accept the MEQ stat-line is dead and give Immortals T5 back.

**Martel732**

You would need to give something back if we make the ability essentially impossible to circumvent.

**Phaeron Gukk**

It's not impossible to circumvent - You can just blow up the nigh-impossible-to-hide models with just 3+ armor saves. Hell, the Monolith is such a catastrophic waste of points i'm still not sure anyone would take it. If it STILL looks scary, make the stratagem cost 1CP more for each time you used it previously.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:

If you're going to evaluate two units, evaluate them at the same range...so if you're going to do the infantry squad at 24", that neophyte squad gets....carry the one....

3 shots at S3, 6 shots at S4.

Yes absolutely, but 16" is a lot easier when you have deepstrike over 12" on foot.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Tyel wrote:
Darsath wrote:
To be fair, their abilities once they're in combat aren't that bad. Sure they die very easily, but they do get re-rolls to wound which makes them effective vs infantry. The problem is more around how they die quickly and have zero synergies within the codex. It's kind of a problem with Necrons as a whole though, not specifically flayed ones.

There are some synergies, they just don't really help.
For example go Novokh for reroll hits. Go implacable conqueror for reroll charges. Use Veil of Darkness for a first turn charge or deep strike for a second turn charge (probably into a screen but thems the breaks). Activate disruption fields if facing T4 or T5 to make them S5 for 1CP.
3 attacks, rerolling hits, rerolling wounds.
The problem is you have no AP. So against regular old Tacticals/CSM, you are only getting 3*8/9*8/9*1/3=0.79 dead. Equals 10.27 points. For 17 points equals 60% return on your points. Against Guardsmen (sorry) its just 37% return on your points.
Which is pretty terrible for an all in synergised assault unit, that even with rerolls will fail a 9" charge about half the time.

So yeah. They either need to be about 12-13 points, or have more attacks/some AP. Or they need something like "from madness to murder, +2" to advance and charges". Potentially two of these.

I do find it interesting that we seem to be moving towards 7th edition, where any assault unit which doesn't have numerous special abilities to mitigate the base charge/overwatch rules is rubbish.

Its something for a new edition - but "if you fail a charge, you still move forward that many inches forward" would potentially be a major change to the game.

...you DO realize that kind of return is actually really good and only absurdly broken units make more than that, right?

**Stux**

Yeah 60% return in one turn is fantastic value. 37% is normal.

For context, a Guardsman shooting a Guardsman Rapid Firing does 33%.

**Phaeron Gukk**

If FOs were troops, I'd say there was no need to change anything. As it stands, taking a big ol' block of inconsistent Elites is just too heavy for a faction like Necrons. Also, the idea of having a block of twenty resin models makes my necrodermis crawl.
Here's a quick fix I see bandied around a lot. What do people think of making Scarabs and Flayed Ones troops?

**torblind**

Phaeron Gukk wrote:
If FOs were troops, I'd say there was no need to change anything. As it stands, taking a big ol' block of inconsistent Elites is just too heavy for a faction like Necrons. Also, the idea of having a block of twenty resin models makes my necrodermis crawl.
Here's a quick fix I see bandied around a lot. What do people think of making Scarabs and Flayed Ones troops?

Would certainly ease the tax burden of the otherwise pricey codex.

**Tyel**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...you DO realize that kind of return is actually really good and only absurdly broken units make more than that, right?

No, its good for shooting, but not for assault because assault units have the all or nothing charge phase, they therefore have to do more damage if everything goes right to be worthwhile. Or have rules such that everything goes right most of the time.

Even with a reroll you have about a 50% chance to fail a 9" charge (its a bit lower if you factor in burning CP having got a 6 but not dramatically so). In other words you have a 50% chance to do zero. The unit meanwhile has suffered overwatch. Then it gets shot or charged - or gets to eat another round of overwatch before it does anything.

You pick something like a genestealer. With a similar set of buffs (just stick a Broodlord nearby, have 10+ in a unit) you stand to get a 120% return versus Marines and a 64% return versus Guardsmen. They also have higher movement and can advance and charge, so have a better chance of getting across the table (and can bounce around with Kraken etc). Is the genestealer much tougher? Well its T4 with a 5++ versus T4 with a 4+, but the genestealer is 12 points so its a better deal.

On this basis you might think Kraken genestealers are a meta defining monster. Are they? Not obviously so no.
You could also compare with Ork Boys or Acolytes who don't have dramatically inferior damage output to flayed ones but are just 7 points a model and therefore will theoretically get a much higher return for your points. They are a bit more fragile - but again, 7 points to 17.

**Stux**

I would say Kraken Genestealers are one of the best units in the game actually. It's just the codex as a whole being so so that holds them back.

**Cynista**

Exactly what Tyel said. You have to compare them to other combat units and when you do, you see how woefully poor they are.

A Slugga boy, at 10 points less per model, puts out about the same damage as a FO but rerolls charges and has mob up.

Khorne Berzerkers, who Dakka lead me to believe nobody even uses, are the same price as FO's but significantly better

**Phaeron Gukk**

Another difference is that boyz, genestealers, acolytes, guardsmen, berserkers(?) etc. etc. can all be taken as troop choices. Even if they're not great they get you CP, they have objec. sec., they pay for your troop tax etc. etc. FOs have to be good in their own right and they really just...aren't.

**SemperMortis**

Horst wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
What stratagems were recosted for cheap guard CP? Or is that hypothetical?

What armies rely on CP farms to get stratagems? Not min/max them to get more like Loyal 32 powering a Knight, but actually rely on souping/CP farming in order to function?

Orks rely on CP farming to function. They rely on CP to make their Tankbustas, Lootas, and Boyz do obscene amounts of damage. Almost every ork list you see will be double batalion at a minimum, maybe brigade + battalion.

Most Ork tournament lists I see are Triple Battalion not double. Because Orkz are absolutely abysmal without 20+ CP. Our best unit in the game right now is the Loota bomb which is 20-25 Lootas (340-425pts) which you spend 1CP to Mob up, 2 CP to Dakkax3 on 5s, 2CP to shoot twice, 1 CP to Grot shield and 1 CP to CP reroll when you roll a 1-2 for number of shots. So on turn 1 you will spend between 5-7CP and turn 2-5 you will spend 4-6CP to make them worth taking, because if you don't they suck. Tankbusta's dont really benefit from CP because they have to stay in a trukk to survive past turn 1 and they can't use stratagems in them so they aren't used as much. Boyz also only really use CP to Green Tide and regenerate a messed up squad back to full strength.

Basically the entire ork codex isn't good but when you factor in stratagems we have a decent list. Damn shame that every competitive thing we have relies on CP spam.

Cynista wrote:
Exactly what Tyel said. You have to compare them to other combat units and when you do, you see how woefully poor they are.

A Slugga boy, at 10 points less per model, puts out about the same damage as a FO but rerolls charges and has mob up.

Khorne Berzerkers, who Dakka lead me to believe nobody even uses, are the same price as FO's but significantly better

FO's also have inherent Deep strike, -1 to leadership tests for enemy units that they kill 1 model from, a 4+ save, so a 50% chance to survive compared to the Ork boyz 6+ save or 16.6% chance to survive, and inherent re rolls for failed wound rolls. Not to mention reanimation protocols. I'll agree though that they are overpriced, they could use a 2-3pt price cut, but don't short change their abilities. A better comparison is the fact that they are 4pts more expensive then a SM Tactical but have a worse save, are slower and have no ranged weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and what I want to see is a clarification on how Loota's random shots and SAG random shots/strength interact with shoot twice stratagems.

Beyond that, most of the ork codex needs price changes and/or maybe a few more special rules, but no real issues with a FAQ needed.