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I've been playing in an escalation league running Seraphon, and my last 3 or 4 games as soon as I start accruing summoning points my opponents moan and start playing for a tie. Am I having bad luck? Is there something off with the way I'm playing? I play this game to have fun and as an escape, I don't play to win at all costs (at least, I don't think I dio), but every game so far has ended up with my opponent being salty unless I start making bad decisions and "forgetting," summoning points.

My last game I ended with ~30 summoning points because the other guy was clearly not having fun, and because of that, neither was I. I summoned 3 razordons and a unit of Ripperdactyls over the entire game, and I only killed a single one of his units!

I was playing a list with a Slann, shadowstrike battalion (starpriest, 1x10 skinks, 1x30 skinks, 3 rippers), a vortex, a chronomantic cogs, an astrolith bearer, and 5 saurus knights. I added the astrolith bearer because that was what I had built at the time and I can only add 250 points each week. It was probably a mistake.

He was playing Ioneth Deepkin and kept bringing back any models I was able to snipe off with the razordons and skinks. I went first, and first turn I traded my rippers for his eels, and he just advanced his whole army forwards. We were playing two places of power, and I warned him at the start of the second turn, before he moved, that I was going to be able to teleport a unit of skinks towards his backfield objective if he left it undefended. He gets the double turn for turn 2, and he moves one unit back to his objective and continues advancing. We trade shots and he kills some skinks, and I kill a few thralls or something, I summoned 2 razordons. I failed a charge with my Saurus knights.

Third turn he advances his entire army back towards his own objective! He brings back all the thralls I killed, then I summon another razordon and a unit of ripperdactyls. We trade shooting, I can't kill a unit since I have to split fire because of the "closest target" rule of deepkin. I don't charge because that turn his units fight first and my knights are weak. He complains a bit about summoning and it's obvious he is not having fun, and I get frustrated because of it.

Fourth turn I shoot a bit more and he brings back everything else. I don't summon anything. I just banked my summoning points for the rest of the game. I moved everything up to get into charge range for turn 5. Turn 5 he just stays back, kills a razordon with his lord with shooting, and hands the game over to me. I teleported my large unit of skinks to his backline and charged them into melee along with the ripperdactlys and the saurus knights. At this point the game was going to go to kill points and we were tied because the only units that had died so far were the rippers and eels the first turn. When I mentioned that the knights could do mortal wounds on the charge he conceded before I even got to roll, though also because the store was closing.

He was a good opponent in general, and he was trying to stay upbeat but it was obvious he was not enjoying the game. I don't know if my list is too OP or what, I try not to go overboard with summoning and after the first time I used the Ripperdactlys bomb I stopped targeting Heores with it, but most of my games end up with my units not killing anything and the other person just backing off and refusing to engage me.

I'm mostly just venting because it has become extremely unfun to play AoS and I don't know if it is my army, my own personal behavior, or if I just got unlucky with my opponents. Most of the other armies in the league have some way to summon units or lost models so I don't know why the fact that my army can summon is such an issue. My win/loss record is not even that impressive. I've won 3 games (1 minor, 2 major victories) Lost 2 games and tied 2 games.

TLDR: Should I bench my Slann?

Seraphon summoning is overpowered (perhaps debatable so at tournaments but undoubtedly outside them). It is not anything your opponents are doing wrong or you, it is just that for many armies the amount of free units you will bring in is too much. Worse still, Seraphon summoning is overpowered at 2000 points and they summon the same amount at lower points levels too.

My advice? Keep the slann, don't use the summoning. Just have him cast his spells instead. Still good and totally worth his points.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Seraphon summoning is overpowered (perhaps debatable so at tournaments but undoubtedly outside them). It is not anything your opponents are doing wrong or you, it is just that for many armies the amount of free units you will bring in is too much. Worse still, Seraphon summoning is overpowered at 2000 points and they summon the same amount at lower points levels too.

My advice? Keep the slann, don't use the summoning. Just have him cast his spells instead. Still good and totally worth his points.

Yeah, that is what I'm thinking, I'm going to drop the endless spells and stop summoning as much. Part of the issue is the Slann's spells are pretty bad. He gets 1 situational spell (reroll morale) and the 2 core spells, so most of the time I don't even bother casting spells with him. But I don't understand why my opponents are so afraid of summoning even when I've only killed like 5 units total in my last 4 games. I summoned a bastilodon one game and he took 3 turns to kill a unit of squig hoppers. I've summoned a troglodon twice across two games and he failed to get a single wound before dying both times. I don't think that Seraphon are weak as an army but the individual units, for the most part, are very weak.

How many points of Elves did they bring back?

I get the impression you are new to Seraphon, in which case they may be reacting to potential that you have yet to see because it's a new army. Even at 1000 points a Seraphon army can bring in 500+ points easily over the course of the game. On average slann+astrolith bring in a bastiladon turn 2. Even at 2000 points that is a pretty big imbalance.

I could be way off the mark though, doing some guesswprk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
How many points of Elves did they bring back?

I am guessing it was 6-10 models total, so 84-140 points.

A problem with summoning is that the lower the points the stronger summoning becomes. How about offering your opponents a compromise. Offer to double the cost of your summoning at the start of the game. This should let the other player know you are not trying to be super competitive but still let you engage with one of the Seraphon's key mechanics.
Also your opponents don't sound great. Idoneth are the one of the best armies in the game with exceptional speed and very strong allegiance abilities. Why wasn't he trying to charge your army in turn 3?

Refer to the balancing thread on here where we discuss summoning and what that does to people that don't have an army that can keep up.

I am pretty new to the game, I've played 7 games total starting at 500 pts and going to 1250, though I have more experience with 40k.

He brought back ~15 models I think. He was bringing back D3+3 models each turn, so 200 points or so.

I'm spending 260 points at the start to be able to summon (100 from spells and 160 for the Slann) not counting the Astrolith since he is a great force multiplier, so I am usually playing from behind until the 3rd battle round.

That game I summoned in 260 points of stuff over 4 turns (3 razordons and a unit of ripperdactyls), so it would have been better for me to just bring the models instead of summoning them anyways....

He didn't charge me because he thought he could not kill my skinks in combat.

I like the idea of increasing the summoning costs, it should blunt the impact and force me to do something different than summoinng.

I like the idea of increasing the summoning costs, it should blunt the impact and force me to do something different than summoinng.

Yeah, escalating costs was something we tried back in the fan comp days as well and was serviceable. It gave more choices anyway other than the false choices we have now (why would you never summon, for example)

Songs like a good player vs a bad player honestly.. After reading you mini report he is a bad player. The IDK player not charging on High Tide, not using 2 boats for blocking, and just not understanding the objectives or how to play is why you won, it has nothing to do with summoning.

All new or bad players you should play down to, regardless of the army. My Tournament practicing partner plays Seraphon and i play IDK and BoC. Ive won more than lost vs him with IDK. I also only play with 12 Eels and 1/2 of them are Ishlean and other 1/2 Morrarr, so i dont even play the hyper comp list b.c i like my Turtle.

 Eldarain wrote:
How many points of Elves did they bring back?

If they can bring elves back they are most likely playing it wrong.

The ability of the soulrender only activates in your own turns. So if you charge, only if you loose models in retaliation and you managed to charge the renders to, to have the wholly within bubble, you are likely to get models.
If you get charged and your opponent is not an idiot, he most likely take the unit out in one go, which is not to hard with a unit at bravery 6 with a 5 +.

IMHO this is the biggest screw up by gw in the IDK book as it would have given a nice alternative way to play IDK competitvely. (On mor'phann)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For IDK to take down seraphon at low posts , the easiest way is change the tides and cause havoc on high tide turn 2 deepstrike your thralls. play fuethan, for run+charge - high tide -run+ charge.

But even then deepkin remains an army where positioning is everything. You need to know your and your opponents army very well, but if you do, it becomes hard to beat.

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How many points of Elves did they bring back?

If they can bring elves back they are most likely playing it wrong.

The ability of the soulrender only activates in your own turns.

Debatable. It says "at the end of your Battleshock phase", but since you still have to undergo Battleshock whether it is your turn or not it's potentially open to being used in both.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How many points of Elves did they bring back?

If they can bring elves back they are most likely playing it wrong.

The ability of the soulrender only activates in your own turns.

Debatable. It says "at the end of your Battleshock phase", but since you still have to undergo Battleshock whether it is your turn or not it's potentially open to being used in both.

if it says at the end of your battleshock phase it refers to the end of the battleshock phase in your own turns. otherwhise they would have said the battleshock phase. it is not because you have to do something it becomes your phase. same goes for combat phase.

They use this all the time.. mostly with the herophase. Abilities you can use in THE herophase = any players turn. Ability in YOUR herophase = your turn. changing the phase does not change how the rules work imho.

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How many points of Elves did they bring back?

If they can bring elves back they are most likely playing it wrong.

The ability of the soulrender only activates in your own turns.

Debatable. It says "at the end of your Battleshock phase", but since you still have to undergo Battleshock whether it is your turn or not it's potentially open to being used in both.

if it says at the end of your battleshock phase it refers to the end of the battleshock phase in your own turns. otherwhise they would have said the battleshock phase. it is not because you have to do something it becomes your phase. same goes for combat phase.

They use this all the time.. mostly with the herophase. Abilities you can use in THE herophase = any players turn. Ability in YOUR herophase = your turn. changing the phase does not change how the rules work imho.

Yeah, that is how they word things. Easy mistake to make though, I originally thought Morefan would be one of the tourney go-to's because I thought it was every battleshock phase.

Sounds like bad opponents honestly, IDK are currently one of the best performing armies.

It's only one build that does well though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's only one build that does well though.

Actually its a few.... Yes all has Eeels, but i have seen other lists do very well. I even seen 4 shark lists do great with a Vulturnos (you keep 1 in front and when it takes 5-7 wounds you rotate it around, MW shots, range missile weapons, etc.. has to kill them 1 by 1 and if they dont in 1 go you put a different one in front, doesnt work against all armies for sure).

Namarti Corpse is a good list, Royal Council is also a good build as well. The 2 Stormcast Knight-incantor, Tidecaster, 3 Scyer and Commit does well too.

Just b.c a list doesnt get top 5 at a tournament doesnt mean it still is a good list for semi-comp/casual player.

As long as that list doesnt find itself facing a real power list thst is true. Once it faces off against one of those its a foregone conclusion typically unless the player playing the weaker list has a lot more skill than the powerlister, in which case in my experience it becomes a good game.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Actually its a few.... Yes all has Eeels, but i have seen other lists do very well. I even seen 4 shark lists do great with a Vulturnos (you keep 1 in front and when it takes 5-7 wounds you rotate it around, MW shots, range missile weapons, etc.. has to kill them 1 by 1 and if they dont in 1 go you put a different one in front, doesnt work against all armies for sure).

Namarti Corpse is a good list, Royal Council is also a good build as well. The 2 Stormcast Knight-incantor, Tidecaster, 3 Scyer and Commit does well too.

Just b.c a list doesnt get top 5 at a tournament doesnt mean it still is a good list for semi-comp/casual player.

Shhhhht, be quiet!

This is the internet! Something is either good or utter dogshite... Nothing in between please, that complicates viewpoints!

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's only one build that does well though.

Actually its a few.... Yes all has Eeels, but i have seen other lists do very well. I even seen 4 shark lists do great with a Vulturnos (you keep 1 in front and when it takes 5-7 wounds you rotate it around, MW shots, range missile weapons, etc.. has to kill them 1 by 1 and if they dont in 1 go you put a different one in front, doesnt work against all armies for sure).

Namarti Corpse is a good list, Royal Council is also a good build as well. The 2 Stormcast Knight-incantor, Tidecaster, 3 Scyer and Commit does well too.

Just b.c a list doesnt get top 5 at a tournament doesnt mean it still is a good list for semi-comp/casual player.

What makes Namartii Corps good? What I've seen of people is Namartii Thralls are okay and Reavers are meh.

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's only one build that does well though.

Actually its a few.... Yes all has Eeels, but i have seen other lists do very well. I even seen 4 shark lists do great with a Vulturnos (you keep 1 in front and when it takes 5-7 wounds you rotate it around, MW shots, range missile weapons, etc.. has to kill them 1 by 1 and if they dont in 1 go you put a different one in front, doesnt work against all armies for sure).

Namarti Corpse is a good list, Royal Council is also a good build as well. The 2 Stormcast Knight-incantor, Tidecaster, 3 Scyer and Commit does well too.

Just b.c a list doesnt get top 5 at a tournament doesnt mean it still is a good list for semi-comp/casual player.

What makes Namartii Corps good? What I've seen of people is Namartii Thralls are okay and Reavers are meh.

Reavers are actually good tho, 8"+re-roll runs, can run and shoot twice a game, if you use the tidecaster can run and shoot turn 1. They shoot 1 or 3 (if within 1/2 range) shots, you could get 60 shots off turn 1. You can kill off a support character (or 2 with lucky roles, but just go for 1) even with -1 to hit.

Namarti Corps are good b.c how cheap it is, 100pts that will give you 5+ units as 1 drop, 1CP, 1 Relic, and b.c your thralls are charging turn 2 for Hide Tide and fighting first, if they dont kill their target and take 2-4 wounds back you get 3 guys always back on your turn.

Basically its a very cheap way to get less drops, if you add 2 units of Eels, a Tidecaster and 1 Soulscryer its a 5 drop army, oppose to not taking it and having a 7-8 drop army (most wont take the Soulrender or a 2nd unit of Reavers if given the option).

Namarti Reavers are better than you would think, 3 Shots, 2 melee. Use them as fast moving flankers and to get in the way or to sit on objectives.

Having an extra CP and Relic is very good for Deepkin, giving a Tidecast and a Soulscyer bonus movement and fly, now they can keep up with your army, stay together for Prayers (+3 with the scyer) and has fly to move over other units)

I see variety within eel builds, but the only consistency I see in top performing Idoneth lists is 12+ eels. To me, different ways of supporting the eels is just different takes on the same build. However I should have made the clear originally, as the way I phrased it is not particularly clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elmir wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Actually its a few.... Yes all has Eeels, but i have seen other lists do very well. I even seen 4 shark lists do great with a Vulturnos (you keep 1 in front and when it takes 5-7 wounds you rotate it around, MW shots, range missile weapons, etc.. has to kill them 1 by 1 and if they dont in 1 go you put a different one in front, doesnt work against all armies for sure).

Namarti Corpse is a good list, Royal Council is also a good build as well. The 2 Stormcast Knight-incantor, Tidecaster, 3 Scyer and Commit does well too.

Just b.c a list doesnt get top 5 at a tournament doesnt mean it still is a good list for semi-comp/casual player.

Shhhhht, be quiet!

This is the internet! Something is either good or utter dogshite... Nothing in between please, that complicates viewpoints!

The hypocrisy runs thick here.

Not nearly as thick as the sarcasm that was running off it...

 Elmir wrote:
Not nearly as thick as the sarcasm that was running off it...

I did know it was sarcasm, yes.