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The more I think about it, the more I think the pappy Emps laugh is a JJ misdirect. If it wasn't, if he was really going to be a major part of the plot, I don't think they'd have had Ian McDiarmid up on stage at the announce, it would have been left more ambiguous. I suspect it'll be flashback stuff, or Rey having a "failure in the cave" moment(except they'll write her as succeeding, of course) during training with ghostie Luke, something along those lines.
EDIT: Either way, it was shrewd to chuck it out there, since JJ has folk talking about the film for reasons other than TLJ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 05:04:59
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
So, if I were to make a wild totally baseless suposition about what kind of movie Rise of Skywalker will be, I would say we will have a "treasure hunt" adventure. Kylo Ren will launch himself into a quest to recover artefacts that belongs to his grand father and Palpatine to increase his powers and solidify his tenuous hold at the head of the First Order. Rey attempts to stop him before he does something stupid like disturbing the Force ghost of Palpatine himself (which he of course will). With a bit of luck, we might have a Ghost fight between Luke and Palpatine and maybe even shades of Vader thrown in there for good measure. There will be a minor retkon of Rey's origin. She's indeed born from nobodies who died, but, just like Anakin, she's a pure product of the Force that created her as some sort of reflex to preserve its balance. This kind of people are known as "Skywalker".
I predict its going to be better since more tightly focused than the Last Jedi. It's not going to be a masterpiece (objectively speaking, none of the Starwars were masterpiece, they were at best good blockbuster movies). I personnaly think it's going to be the best of the new trilogy and probably at par with Return of the Jedi in term of quality. Since I enjoyed the Last Jedi and thought the Force Awaken was OK (it really was just a reash of a New Hope 35 years later), I expect a grade between 75 to 85% for this instalment.
I think the movie will have some issues surrounding the role of Leia since Carry Fisher died and there is no easy way to deal with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 06:28:46
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Since they are allegedly having some time pass between this movie and the last, they may have Leia die off camera. but still use the scenes Carrie Fisher filmed for this movie as flashback material. Good use of flashbacks could be good for semi-explaining how the Resistance gets out of the pickle they are in at the end of the last movie(only ~30ish people stuck on the Falcon) without having to completely go through it.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Meh....watched the trailer to see what all the paid hype across the mass media was about - If JJ can clear up the stinking mess left in the bowl by Johnson.
Silly starting scene on the usual desert world......
Flashy imagery and little substance - so same as every episode since the original trilogy.
Disapointing and probably the best bit was the line "the end of the saga" - put it down now.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I did kinda yawn at seeing another desert world. Especially if this is a new one, how many bland desert worlds are they gonna come up with. Plus jumping the tie fighter is silly theatrics, a scene that only makes sense to make the audience go oooohhh ahhh.
JJ will deliver a flashy movie, but he tends to be better at setting up stories than finishing them.
BlaxicanX wrote: That theory has been rattling around for literally like 25 years.
That's where I got it. In fact wasn't it mentioned even in some EU story?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote: So, if I were to make a wild totally baseless suposition about what kind of movie Rise of Skywalker will be, I would say we will have a "treasure hunt" adventure. Kylo Ren will launch himself into a quest to recover artefacts that belongs to his grand father and Palpatine to increase his powers and solidify his tenuous hold at the head of the First Order. Rey attempts to stop him before he does something stupid like disturbing the Force ghost of Palpatine himself (which he of course will). With a bit of luck, we might have a Ghost fight between Luke and Palpatine and maybe even shades of Vader thrown in there for good measure. There will be a minor retkon of Rey's origin. She's indeed born from nobodies who died, but, just like Anakin, she's a pure product of the Force that created her as some sort of reflex to preserve its balance. This kind of people are known as "Skywalker".
I really hope they're not doing another treasure hunt (though I agree teaser slightly hints to that direction). They just concluded one, and also, it would be hella-lame if all the military and political power of the First Order they have gathered is suddenly negated because of some mystical doohickey. You can't handwave things away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 09:08:12
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
In case there’s any lingering ambiguity from the trailer (and McDiarmid’s appearance at the panel!), I can 100% confirm that Palpatine is back in The Rise Of Skywalker as I just asked JJ. He’s thrilled - and slightly incredulous- that McDiarmid’s presence on set didn’t leak.
He works/writes for Empire magazine.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
In case there’s any lingering ambiguity from the trailer (and McDiarmid’s appearance at the panel!), I can 100% confirm that Palpatine is back in The Rise Of Skywalker as I just asked JJ. He’s thrilled - and slightly incredulous- that McDiarmid’s presence on set didn’t leak.
He works/writes for Empire magazine.
Well of course, somebody who works for the Empire would hype up Emperor.
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Well, maybe the sequel trash is good for something after all.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, we know that Palpatine unlocked the secret to eternal life. Its possible that that includes the ability to resurrect himself from a physical death. Possibly via becoming a Force Ghost(which dark siders normally can't become), and as Force Ghosts can actually interact with the physical world as shown by Yoda in TLJ, he could rebuild a body to be reborn into. Either by reforming his old body or possessing the body of someone else.
I think the spirit of Palpatine become a recurring villain would be interesting. A twisted person that has transcended the mortal plane and become an eldritch being that propagates evil across the galaxy.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Well, maybe the sequel trash is good for something after all.
But the Ewok were so cute, I loved them as a kid. They were both hilarious and adorable (and not racist like Jar-Jar, or the Commerce Guild and Banking Federation). I say bring the Ewok back. If a portion of the movie is on Endor (which seems to be the case), they should make an appearence and no, they shoudn't be killed to satisfy the urges of a bunch of edgy late tweens. I could totally see general Hux geting beaten by Ewok. It would be fitting considering the fact he's a worm in uniform.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 19:05:49
Yodhrin wrote: Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?
That's the important bit.
I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.
Yodhrin wrote: Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?
That's the important bit.
I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.
Like the entire Disney trilogy hasn't made a point of demeaning the original trilogy...
Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things, I fully expect Rey to encounter the Emperor in the ruins of the Death Star and beat him with her force powers.
Elbows wrote: Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.
I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 22:34:23
Rey: Hey Palpatine you (massive) nerd! Where's my money?
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
Both Han and Luke fail... a lot, throughout the entire run of the original trilogy. That keeps them out of Mary Sue territory.
Vader is a fairly crippled wreck of a machine, a long way from his prime (and 'most powerful' is nowhere in the OT). And all Luke can really do is stand while being tested by Vader and then flee from him. There isn't any contest on who's winning in Cloud City.
And stormtroopers are a really low bar of measurement.
Rey is introduced as abandoned orphan on a desert planet who is routinely shorted on food rations. She has no particular reason to be anything but a half-starved, uneducated wreck of a person.
I really hope they're not doing another treasure hunt (though I agree teaser slightly hints to that direction). They just concluded one, and also, it would be hella-lame if all the military and political power of the First Order they have gathered is suddenly negated because of some mystical doohickey. You can't handwave things away.
They don't have much choice in that regard. The Resisty down to a dozen or two idiots and a smuggling ship. The First Order apparently has nigh-infinite resources and manpower, that can also stay completely hidden from the galactic government and yet simultaneously everyone introduced on every planet (in TFA and TLJ) knows that it is a threat. It was established as a handwave, and lazy storytelling: The bad people are an overwhelming threat, and only the magic of <MacGuffin> or <Bloodline> will save us all in approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes of run time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 22:53:23
Meh. The Last Jedi was the straw that broke my Star Wars interest's back after years of waning interest in my part. After spending upwards of hundreds most years on Star Wars stuff (novels, video games, physical media, movie releases, tabletop and rpg games, apparel, tchotckies, etc) for decades, I spent $5 last year to see Solo on discount night weeks after it premiered and that's it for 2018. This trailer hasn't improved that outlook.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Nah, I disagree with the above poster who thinks Luke was a Mary sue.
In New Hope, he gets into a pub brawl, and only avoids a beating because of Alec Guiness.
His plan in the Death Star was a shambles, hence why they end up in a rubbish bin. His skill at flying is explained by messing around with flying in Beggar's valet, or whatever th feth it's called
He uses the force to blow up the Death Star. I can buy that.
In Empire, a polar bear thing chucks him in the freezer for later. He gets shot down by one of those walker things, thinks Yoda is a village idiot when they first meet, crashes his X-wing in a swamp, gets a doing from Vader, and ends up hanging off a TV aerial.
In Jedi, his plan for Jabba's palace almost goes up in smoke, gets ridiculed by Jabba who's immune to Jedi mind tricks, almost ends up as a tooth pick for that pit monster, and gets 50,000 volts from Palpatine.
He struggles. He makes mistakes, he learns.
Luke, in terms of character development, is 1000 times the charcter Rey is.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Elbows wrote: Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.
Spoiler:
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.
I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.
You're exactly right.around the 13th word. You don't understand, and all the other words reinforce that.
Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: Meh. The Last Jedi was the straw that broke my Star Wars interest's back after years of waning interest in my part. After spending upwards of hundreds most years on Star Wars stuff (novels, video games, physical media, movie releases, tabletop and rpg games, apparel, tchotckies, etc) for decades, I spent $5 last year to see Solo on discount night weeks after it premiered and that's it for 2018. This trailer hasn't improved that outlook.
Alienating our paying customer base...
This how we win Finn!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/13 23:05:36
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
Elbows wrote: Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.
I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.
I'm not a huge Star Wars nut, but...did you actually watch the original trilogy?
As mentioned above...Luke more less fails almost throughout the entire first trilogy. What part of "hold his own against Vader" did you see in the film? You mean when he's swinging wildly while having things hurled at him...and subsequently gets his hand cut off and thrown into the void? Is that your definition of holding your own against Darth Vader? When does he have amazing exploits of flying in the first trilogy? They mention he's a good bush pilot, but he struggles to shoot down TIE fighters when aboard the Millenium Falcon...he gets shot down over Hoth...and he's never seen blitzing through dozens of TIE fighters with ease. As mentioned above he straight up crashes his X-Wing at Yoda's. He doesn't outshoot Storm Troopers either...he shoots at them randomly with little to no practice or relish and isn't seen blasting tons of Storm Troopers into pieces. If anything they're running and fleeing shooting Storm Troopers through most of the films.
He even plays the part of Jedi master and then is tricked into falling into a trap at Jaba's where he almost gets killed. He is actually shown training...and failing...a lot. H'e shown getting his ass shot by droids. He's shown failing to raise his X-Wing. He's shown having human flaws such as impatience and incredulity. He's even shown failing when facing the Emperor despite being told he's going to give into his hatred etc.
And all this, in what is more or less a semi-campy space action film. Are you seeing a trend? A normal human who actually has faults...actually has to train to do things...actually fails more than he succeeds. He isn't the strongest force user (the Emperor kicks the gak out of him with lightning, etc.).
Riquende wrote: Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.
Did you watch the fight in RotJ lately? Luke handles Vader pretty fine and even kicks him down a few stairs and nimbly dodges all his blows all the while trrying to talk him out of fighting against him. The only time Vader seem to gain an advantage is when he catches him by surprise by throwing his lightsaber and fails to capitalise on it since Luke, who doesn't want to fight him, evades him and hide. Then he gets momentarily angry and beats him down with ease in about 15-20 seconds before recovering his cool and calling off the Emperor on his mind game (very stupidly though). Luke was more then capable of handling Vader, but didn't even wanted to fight him in the first place. On Bespin, he evades being frozen and kicks Vader down a shaft. He also clips him on the shoulder right before he gets his hand cut. Vader had to work a bit to beat him. It's even shown when he changes his sword stance from one handed to two handed and when he stops just mouthing him off like in the fist exchange.
As for Rey's failure, she got captured twice, was manipulated by both Kylo and Snoke, was smacked a little bit by Snoke and saved by her enemy. She also failed to save Kylo from himself (so far). She recovered from all of these setbacks, but so did Luke whose biggest setback was losing a hand against Vader and it was solved and this potential problem was solved the very next scene when he ot a perfect prostetic..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 23:24:30
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.
Lukes a Mary Sue because even his negative bad traits are actually positive good traits within the story and then everything works out for him.
Mary Sue is 1) a bs term that has a broad vague meaning that basically means "A character I don't like because..."
and 2) not just a character that always wins but more importantly a character that never really looses.
So what characters are Mary Sues?
fething everyone. Batman, superman, captain america, ironman, ant man, luke skywalker, laura croft, han solo. Name a protagonist. They are a Mary Sue by the broad and dumb definitions of the term.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends,
Bzzt!
Gonna stop you right there. Luke doesn't save _any_ of his friends. *He* has to get saved by Leia and Lando (the actual person that saves Leia and Chewie). Han is still carted off successfully, and 3PO is shot to bits long before Luke even manages to turn up... after being explicitly told he's going to ruin things by going at all.
And even after everything is over, they're all going to get captured again because of Hyperdrive shenanigans until R2 saves them all.
Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 23:37:48
Lance845 wrote: The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends,
Bzzt!
Gonna stop you right there. Luke doesn't save _any_ of his friends. *He* has to get saved by Leia and Lando (the actual person that saves Leia and Chewie). Han is still carted off successfully, and 3PO is shot to bits long before Luke even manages to turn up... after being explicitly told he's going to ruin things by going at all.
And even after everything is over, they're all going to get captured again because of Hyperdrive shenanigans until R2 saves them all.
Incorrect, if Luke didn't show up to cloud city the events would have unfolded differently with Vader never taking his eyes and hands off all his friends. The only reason his friends get the opportunity to save Luke is because Luke is there to distract Vader. Otherwise it would have been Han, Chewie, Leia, and the broken 3PO having to face Vader. A situation they would have walked away from loosing significantly more than a hand that instantly gets replaced.
Yeah, he gets told hes going to ruin things if he goes. What exaclty got ruined in the end? Luke failed upwards again!
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.
Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.
TV Tropes doesn't get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.
The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, the characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half-Human Hybrid masquerading as a human, and die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good for This Sinful Earth. (Or space, as the case may be.)
Even back then, there wasn't a total consensus on what was or wasn't Mary Sue, since it's not always immediately obvious which character is an Author Avatar. As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think.
The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)
In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.
Over time, a male variant started to see use. Marty Stu (also known as Gary Stu, for those who prefer rhyme to alliteration) wasn't really that much different from Mary. Also an Author Avatar, it usually had implications of being a male crew member that tended to completely outshine established canon members in their roles and often become the best starship captain, ever. See The Ace. Since the female characters of Star Trek were all in secondary roles at best, the relationship angle was generally disregarded as being any sort of qualifier. Because of the not-entirely-unjustified perception that Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls, Marty Stu didn't really catch on for a long time.
Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.
Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much Internet Backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.
These last two paragraphs are why it's so hard to really nail down a definition of "Mary Sue": the term has started to be used in a much wider context, and to mean much wider things, than it once did, and there's no way to figure out which of those characteristics are necessary and sufficient to define a Mary Sue.
Some of the controversies:
Do Sues appear only in fanfic, or are Canon Sues allowed? Can you have a male Sue? Are all Author Avatars Sues, even if they're well-written, realistic, and don't take over the story — and, are all Sues necessarily stand-ins for the author? Is the most important part how the author de-protagonist-izes every other character in the name of making the Sue seem even more awesome? If you have an impossibly competent character with a cool back story and an idealized personality, and they manage to be likable to most of the audience, are they still a Mary Sue, or does Suedom depend on the character being disliked because of their obnoxious perfection?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/13 23:47:40
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
