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Can we take Ynnari wraithseers without Yncarne, Visarch, or Yvraine? I'd love to run a wraithseer supreme command. How would they benefit from Ynnari?

 slave.entity wrote:
Can we take Ynnari wraithseers without Yncarne, Visarch, or Yvraine? I'd love to run a wraithseer supreme command. How would they benefit from Ynnari?

No, to have Ynnari detachment you need 1 of the 3. Players are thinking about wraithseer, since there are few very good warlord traits and artifacts.

I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?

Looks like that's right. You can get two extremely tough characters though. One with Lord of Rebirth and the other with The Lost Shroud.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?

Yea, i don`t think you switch his powers, since they are not in the other disciplines. That make me really sad since his powers are kind of lame.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?

We have a poor piece of FW wording here but I think when it gains the Ynnari keyword it must generate its powers from the Revenant discipline because the Ynnari rules are very clear and unambiguous on that. It might be worth an email to the GW FAQ address, they never really said they would FAQ things from WD 2 weeks after release but we can hope that they will and do.

I've got a bunch of questions im sending in. Including this like why do Ynarri pay double für the same strat.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?

We have a poor piece of FW wording here but I think when it gains the Ynnari keyword it must generate its powers from the Revenant discipline because the Ynnari rules are very clear and unambiguous on that. It might be worth an email to the GW FAQ address, they never really said they would FAQ things from WD 2 weeks after release but we can hope that they will and do.

Wraithseer powers are not included in any of the disciplines and only they change to Revenant.
It will be cool if it did through. If some one is asking can you ask for the archon revive.

Marin wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I know many here have been basically saying that the acolyte strategem is crap, but honestly I don;t think this is the case. It basically gives a big f you to Culexus assassins. Also, just in case anyone wants to take a Wraithknight as Ynnari, it can make use of the A Taste for death strategem since it doesn't get the Strength from Death ability.
Ynnari hemlocks are interesting since it's rare to make too much use of the other Craftworld abilities due to proximity. Having access to Gaze Of Ynnead is nice since it's short ranged but does not need to be the closest model.
And one last thing....Chaos has the Lord Discordant to take in 3s. Is Ynnari the faction to take the Wraithseer in 3s?

Why the WK can`t get soulburst ?

yeah, never mind, it's just Super Heavy Detachment that can't get it because it can never be Ynnari (can't take one of the characters) but that doesn't stop one from being Ynnari in a Supreme Command detachment.

The wraithseer powers look almost useless but having 3 extra denies and potentially 3 extra smites on durable platforms is not a bad thing.

 slave.entity wrote:
Can we take Ynnari wraithseers without Yncarne, Visarch, or Yvraine? I'd love to run a wraithseer supreme command. How would they benefit from Ynnari?

Taking 2 Ynarri Wraithseers is pretty great. A supreme command of Visarch, 2x Wraithseer and a Bonesinger isn't super expensive and gives some extremely tough models. If you take one Wraithseer as your Warlord with Walker of Many Paths and the Lost Shroud it gets 1/2 damage, a reroll to hit or wound with it's D-Cannon each turn and becomes 3+/5++/5+++, which is rather tough! The other can be given the Lord of Rebirth with Exalted of Yneead and, maybe, Corag Hai's Locket. That makes it also 3+/5++/5+++, but instead of 1/2 damage, it regenerates one wound a turn. A bonesinger just makes them incredibly tanky.

If you wanted a 3rd one I'd suggest an Iyanden one though, as a third Ynarri one can't be buffed and will just die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
The wraithseer powers look almost useless but having 3 extra denies and potentially 3 extra smites on durable platforms is not a bad thing.

They can't smite.

The wraithseer power that boosts chances for an assault is decent as it's cheap and Ynnari want to be in combat anyway. I could see it used on some wraithblades.
I'm thinking that a Ynnari close combat detachment and regular Craftworlds detachment is doable. The Ynnari focus on assault using the Doom power they have while the Craftworlds use regular Doom for the shooting phase.
The question is, if I lean toward wraith units, is it better than running a Iyanden Vigilus detachment with the psytronome. I think the only way it's better is making use of the wraithseer and psychic powers to give the wraith constructs invulns. If going wraithseers, I may also lean more toward the wraithcannon than the D-Cannon. It's an assault weapon which allows me to move without compromising my shooting (although super short ranged) and is significantly cheaper. The D-Cannon is a great threat but has random shots, doesn't want to move, and is extremely expensive.

Damn, I just realized something. Wraithseers pretty much invalidate my barebones wraithlords. I'm paying 95pts for a wraithlord with a sword and 2 shuricatapults. A wraithseer is 100pts, gets the spear for free (which is better than sword), has 2 more wounds, an invuln save, and is psyker. That's not even a competition.
However, I am now seriously considering 3 wraithseers and 3 wraithlords in my list. That's only 585pts for 66 wounds at T8, that all hit like trucks and can be buffed. may add a smatter of hvy weapons for taste.

 bullyboy wrote:
The wraithseer power that boosts chances for an assault is decent as it's cheap and Ynnari want to be in combat anyway. I could see it used on some wraithblades.
I'm thinking that a Ynnari close combat detachment and regular Craftworlds detachment is doable. The Ynnari focus on assault using the Doom power they have while the Craftworlds use regular Doom for the shooting phase.
The question is, if I lean toward wraith units, is it better than running a Iyanden Vigilus detachment with the psytronome. I think the only way it's better is making use of the wraithseer and psychic powers to give the wraith constructs invulns. If going wraithseers, I may also lean more toward the wraithcannon than the D-Cannon. It's an assault weapon which allows me to move without compromising my shooting (although super short ranged) and is significantly cheaper. The D-Cannon is a great threat but has random shots, doesn't want to move, and is extremely expensive.

Damn, I just realized something. Wraithseers pretty much invalidate my barebones wraithlords. I'm paying 95pts for a wraithlord with a sword and 2 shuricatapults. A wraithseer is 100pts, gets the spear for free (which is better than sword), has 2 more wounds, an invuln save, and is psyker. That's not even a competition.
However, I am now seriously considering 3 wraithseers and 3 wraithlords in my list. That's only 585pts for 66 wounds at T8, that all hit like trucks and can be buffed. may add a smatter of hvy weapons for taste.

It's alot chepaer in CP than the Iyanden version. I also like the D-Cannon when you take 3 as 3d3 shots at that profile is really nice (compare to the output of a castellans anti tank guns). This is particularly true on a Walker of the Many Paths seer, which can reroll everything (even the 3 when moving).

I can’t seem to come up with anything.. there are some neat warlord traits and relics.. but when I go to build a 2000 pt army list when I’m done I just would rather use those points elsewhere

So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?

You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.

What are the prime melee unita people will use?

 Niiai wrote:
So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?

You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.

What are the prime melee unita people will use?

CWE don`t like them.
Harlequins are so so.
DE can use them.

Probably wytch cult units will be the best. Ynnari look fair and balanced.

 Niiai wrote:
So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?

You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.

What are the prime melee unita people will use?

Honestly? They look a bit crap.

I don't mind them being underpowered but I detest being forced to use special characters just to have them at all.

People keep talking about Wych Cults but PfP makes the bonus entirely redundant from turn 3 onwards so I really don't see the appeal. Especially since they also remove your ability to take worthwhile weapons on Succubi.

Harlequins? Maybe, though I imagine being banned from taking the Solitaire is something of a pain.

Eldar? They probably have the most units that get some benefit from Ynnari but from a practical standpoint it means giving up some of the best psychic powers in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of their artefacts and warlord traits, so I'd like to use them for that reason alone. I just wish they weren't such an absolute pain to use. The special character tax seems entirely unnecessary - especially on a faction that's already been nerfed into the ground.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.

Does eldar or ynnari have some way to give some sort of +1 to charge or something? Because normally odd of charge is 28% and if you can reroll whole roll it's about 50-50. With CP reroll it's less than 50-50.

Thus with 3 units trying charge without one CP roll you have 62% chance of getting one and average amount of units charging less than 1. With CP rolling 1 dice from one unit you could count on 1 but 2 seems too optimistic. Unless eldar or ynnari have further buffs.

tneva82 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:

3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.

Does eldar or ynnari have some way to give some sort of +1 to charge or something? Because normally odd of charge is 28% and if you can reroll whole roll it's about 50-50. With CP reroll it's less than 50-50.

Thus with 3 units trying charge without one CP roll you have 62% chance of getting one and average amount of units charging less than 1. With CP rolling 1 dice from one unit you could count on 1 but 2 seems too optimistic. Unless eldar or ynnari have further buffs.

A wraith unit can be allowed to roll an additional D6, discarding the lowest from a wraithseer buff. Drukhari reroll charges from turn 2 onwards, and banshees add 3" to their charge if they advance, but that's about it.

 vipoid wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of their artefacts and warlord traits, so I'd like to use them for that reason alone. I just wish they weren't such an absolute pain to use. The special character tax seems entirely unnecessary - especially on a faction that's already been nerfed into the ground.

While I understand not liking the constraint, It would be more tolerable if they were at least priced to be an auto-take.
I think Yvraine could be only about 120 but at a stretch its fine. The Visarch however should be no more than 85-90.

The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.

Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.

But in Daemon Princes I can't see how the Yncarne is worth more than maybe 240 points. And frankly the more I think about it, the lower I go.
If he had some mad synergy it might make sense - but really thats the problem with the whole list. There is very little synergy compared to a modern codex (see say GSC).

I am half-tempted to say its a placeholder for a full codex in say 2020 when GW actually release some new Ynnari Eldar units. I fear this might just be wishful thinking though. (Apart from the Spirit Seer have there been any Eldar releases in 8th edition?)

The only synergy i see ynnari helping in / buffs that actually could come up is with eldar themselves and those units are few/ far between. Besides wraith consturcts getting an invunerable/ feel no pain or some tanks getting a boost for casting up i just dont see it.

I cant think of a single harliquen unit that gets a valid boost / could see new ways to use from ynnari. There are some dark eldar options but really, nothing that would make the investment in cost worth it.....

I'm finding a DE Ynarri battalion to be useful. Visarch + Succubus is similar in first to 2 archons and I can take cheap kabs as troops and reavers in FA. Its a battalion that was formerly just cp.

Drager wrote:
I'm finding a DE Ynarri battalion to be useful. Visarch + Succubus is similar in first to 2 archons and I can take cheap kabs as troops and reavers in FA. Its a battalion that was formerly just cp.

That might be one small use....Succubus, character, 2x5 kabalites, 1x20 wyches in webway, 9-12 reaver bikes.

Just for fun, I may try and see if I can create the triple detachment of harlie/CW/drukhari. Going to be really tough.

My awful first attempt..

Drukhari battalion

Succubus, archite glaive, sp 50
Visarch 120
20 wyches, 3 shardnet.impalers, agonizer 179
5 kabalites, blaster 47
Venom, twin s-fifle, cannon 60
5 kabalites, blaster 47
Venom, twin s-rifle,cannon 60
9 Reavers, 3 grav talons 180

Craftworld Supreme Command

Wraithseer - D-cannon 145
Wraithseer - D-cannon 145
Yvraine 132
5 wraithblades 175

Harlequin Outrider

Yncarne 339
2 Skyweavers 102
2 Skyweavers 102
2 Skyweavers 102

That begs the question, is that Outrider even legal? Can you take a Ynnari character as your only HQ or do I need a Harlequin character too? Anyway, the above has 15pts to spare and I'm not a fan of it at all. I just don't know how you get all 3 in there with a doable list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, this is my attempt at a mixed army with a small Ynnari element

Alaitoc Battalion

farseer skyrunner 132
warlock skyrunner 70
10 Guardians, shuricannon 95
5 Dire Avengers 58
5 Dire Avengers 58
2 Fire Prisms, 1 CTM 319

Alaitoc Airwing

CHE, starcannons 161
2 Hemlocks 420

Ynnari Supreme Command

Yvraine 132
Wraithseer, wraithcannon, warlord - walker of many paths, Lost Shroud 115
Wraithseer, wraithcannon - add warlord trait - Lord of Rebirth 115
5 Wraithblades 175
Wave Serpent, twin cannon, twin cats, spirit stone 149

Drager wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
The wraithseer powers look almost useless but having 3 extra denies and potentially 3 extra smites on durable platforms is not a bad thing.

They can't smite.

Ouch that hurts. That sucks.

I think the Wraithseer Supreme Command is going to work great for Ynnari. I'm definitely going to be giving it a try along with my shooty eldar. I think I'm going to opt for the wraithcannons over D-cannons simply as I will want them moving upfield quickly.

Core will be either 2 or 3 wraithseers. One will have Lost Shroud and the other will have Lord of Rebirth. Yvraine will accompany 5 wraithblades in a serpent. I also want to get the Walker of Many Paths warlord trait but need to figure out who to put it on as I could see a wraithseer being targeted down to get warlord. An Autarch might be better, either with wings or skyrunner to hide better.

I looked at running a similar setup as Iyanden with one seer getting the psytronome, and using Vigilus detachment, but lacking that 5+++ is just a shame, even with the potential double attacks of the psytronome.

So I think right now running the Ynnari as the central melee component, a few long range/mobile shooty elements (usually prisms and hemlocks for me) and then the rest of the force to focus on horde killing so lots of shuricans and shadow weavers.

Tyel wrote:
The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.

Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.

It does seem rather overpriced. What I would say is that if you can trigger the Yncarne's "Summoned by Death" ability in your opponent's turn (e.g. by killing something in melee), then the Yncarne can pop up 1" away from the enemy and quite happily charge in you turn.

Killing something in your opponent's melee phase may be easier said than done but that is where our ability to strike 1st comes in handy. Take a big unit of Wyches to keep the enemy pinned in melee and maybe you can pull it off. Not necessarily a strategy you can build around but potentially nasty when it works.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [25 PL, 432pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Ynnari

+ HQ +

Succubus [4 PL, 50pts]: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol

Succubus [4 PL, 50pts]: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol

Yvraine [7 PL, 132pts]

+ Troops +

Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych

Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych

Wyches [2 PL, 40pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych

+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi
. Klaivex: Klaive

++ Total: [25 PL, 432pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

You can give the Succubus the warlord trait to regenerate CP.
So you get cute little force that can mess with enemy leadership and generate CP.

 Karhedron wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.

Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.

It does seem rather overpriced. What I would say is that if you can trigger the Yncarne's "Summoned by Death" ability in your opponent's turn (e.g. by killing something in melee), then the Yncarne can pop up 1" away from the enemy and quite happily charge in you turn.

Killing something in your opponent's melee phase may be easier said than done but that is where our ability to strike 1st comes in handy. Take a big unit of Wyches to keep the enemy pinned in melee and maybe you can pull it off. Not necessarily a strategy you can build around but potentially nasty when it works.

Actually, I have just noticed that "Summoned by Death" works when any unit is destroyed. Just say your opponent has destroyed a small unit you had guarding an Objective. The Yncarne can pop up like a daemonic jack-in-the-box and kill them in the next turn. It is like have a Daemon Prince capable of counter-charging just about anywhere on the table that your opponent kills a unit. Anything dies and the Yncarne pops up to make a revenge attack.

How did you play the Yncarne before?

 Karhedron wrote:
Actually, I have just noticed that "Summoned by Death" works when any unit is destroyed. Just say your opponent has destroyed a small unit you had guarding an Objective. The Yncarne can pop up like a daemonic jack-in-the-box and kill them in the next turn. It is like have a Daemon Prince capable of counter-charging just about anywhere on the table that your opponent kills a unit. Anything dies and the Yncarne pops up to make a revenge attack.

The tradeoff is the Yncarne just being there to counter-charge anyway.

Against elite assault armies (not that many of them tbh, I guess a theoretical wraith-ynnari count) its a potentially interesting counter. Against say Orks or GSC the fact you are likely to counter charge and kill 6~ in combat doesn't really mean very much and I don't know where he was to not charge in to begin with.
Versus shooting I think you are looking at "aha, you thought I had lost this objective? No, Yncarne to the rescue". But then when a unit which costs costs 337 points and only really has a sword plus smite/smite alternatives is on the other side of the table, hes not pulling his weight.
I don't believe giving Eldar units a 6+++ is crazy good, otherwise everyone would run Ulthwe.

If you shoot an enemy unit and then drop the Yncarne, your opponent gets a full turn to respond. its not that tough, certainly not when you are paying almost a Gallant or melee wraithknight in points.

Its not a worthless ability - but I don't think its an especially valuable ability.