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2019/05/06 17:50:00
Subject: Re:Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Galef wrote: To be fair, that really is how it should be. Like it or not, Ynnari aren't supposed to be the defacto-best option. That was why they were OP before.
YNNARI, like Codex traits, are supposed to just add flavor to your games, not be a means to "make a more competitive list". Sure traits like Alaitoc exist as outliers to this philosophy, but I can only see these Ynnari changes as a course correction to get the game back to how it should be.
I disagree on this.
I don't think there is anything wrong with GW going "we imagine the Ynnari as an assault-focused infantry+bikers drawn from across the Eldar family. We are therefore going to devise rules with that in mind to encourage people to use those units."
"We also recognise that most of these units are not popular or widely played at the moment, especially in a competitive setting, which would imply those rules need to be strong if this is going to work."
"As a result - if someone wants to run say Banshees, or Scorpions, or Incubi, the most efficient way to do it will be Ynnari".
Now there is a problem if "Ynnari Banshees are the most broken thing in the game" - but having alternative buffs gives you design space. "These units are good as Ynnari", "These units are good as Alaitoc", "this specific build works with this Harlequin Masque" etc.
I mean nothing stopped you taking a big Eldar assault infantry army with say Saim Hann and the Avatar of Khaine supported by Strife or cursed blade Wyches. But it wasn't very good, which is why most people probably never saw it.
2019/05/06 18:27:12
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/06 18:42:26
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Edit: Rising Crescendo
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 18:44:07
2019/05/06 18:51:21
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
2019/05/06 18:58:04
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Edit: Rising Crescendo
Which is one of the changes I like from a thematic standpoint. It didn't make sense that CWE would lose Battle Focus, or Harlequins would lose Rising Crescendo. It makes perfect sense for them to lose their selectable Trait, however. It's just sad that they replace that trait with something so incredibly sub-par and with sub-par Stratagems to boot.
Drager wrote: Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
Which is nice, but seem counter to the fluff in which they don't seem to mix very well. You're either Ynnari or not
Another thing that has been irking my lately is the "no named characters other than the 3 Ynnari ones". I get that it is to prevent weird situations in which you cannot trade <Craftworld/Asuryani> for REBORN ASURYANI because the Character already has Ulthwe or Iyanden, but there should be other excpetions. Like Eldrad, Lilith Hexparex or Yriel. I mean Yriel has a freaking Crone Sword for cryin' out load
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/06 19:07:10
Drager wrote: Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
Which is nice, but seem counter to the fluff in which they don't seem to mix very well. You're either Ynnari or not
Another thing that has been irking my lately is the "no named characters other than the 3 Ynnari ones". I get that it is to prevent weird situations in which you cannot trade <Craftworld/Asuryani> for REBORN ASURYANI because the Character already has Ulthwe or Iyanden, but there should be other excpetions. Like Eldrad, Lilith Hexparex or Yriel. I mean Yriel has a freaking Crone Sword fro cryin out load
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If they would let us take one Special Character to unlock all 3 detachments, then I can see triple Ynarri builds being viable, as is the 600 point buy-in is too steep at less than 3000 points. They get around the inability to trade problem for Guard and brood brothers (not on named characters, but for Militarum Tempestus), so they know how to do that. I agree that it seems daft that you can't take them, due to the fluff. Also if they were able to unlock Ynarri detachments that would make the buy in much more acceptable. Eldrad is solid, Litlith and Yriel are meh, but at least cheap (compare to the Yncarne).
2019/05/06 19:22:21
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Edit: Rising Crescendo
Wow I completely missed that.
Well then we are all complaining about nothing then right? This is just basically an okay army trait with a new set of stratagems. They aren't great but +1 attack strat is good.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/06 19:50:49
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
"An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
2019/05/06 20:05:42
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Yeah, even I'll admit that requiring a Ynnari Character PER detachment is a bit much. I'm all for requiring at least 1 of the 3 in the ARMY to unlock YNNARI in any detachment, because in the fluff one of them is almost always present amongst the Ynnari. But limiting them per detachment is too high an investment. Especially since only 2 of the 3 are arguably competitive
I expected them to be purchased like Assassins, either all 3 via Supreme Command, or pay 1CP per Character to add them to your army. That would have been better. And the Keyword swaps for REBORN as the selectable Trait would work well with that change
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 20:08:30
Burnage wrote: "An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
That isn't required at all at the point levels the game is played at though - you only need 1 Ynnari character per detachment right? Yncarne not getting a point drop is probably the most disappointing thing about this release for me. Also - Incubi not getting SFD...why the heck to you have to pay CP for them to get SFD?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/06 21:28:05
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Burnage wrote: "An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
That isn't required at all at the point levels the game is played at though - you only need 1 Ynnari character per detachment right? Yncarne not getting a point drop is probably the most disappointing thing about this release for me. Also - Incubi not getting SFD...why the heck to you have to pay CP for them to get SFD?
You can't use the best stratagem (+1 Attack) unless you take all three characters, sadly.
2019/05/06 22:24:21
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
(Edit: By blade I mean ghostglaive).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 22:26:14
2019/05/07 06:50:10
Subject: Re:Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Galef wrote: To be fair, that really is how it should be. Like it or not, Ynnari aren't supposed to be the defacto-best option. That was why they were OP before.
YNNARI, like Codex traits, are supposed to just add flavor to your games, not be a means to "make a more competitive list". Sure traits like Alaitoc exist as outliers to this philosophy, but I can only see these Ynnari changes as a course correction to get the game back to how it should be.
I disagree on this.
I don't think there is anything wrong with GW going "we imagine the Ynnari as an assault-focused infantry+bikers drawn from across the Eldar family. We are therefore going to devise rules with that in mind to encourage people to use those units."
"We also recognise that most of these units are not popular or widely played at the moment, especially in a competitive setting, which would imply those rules need to be strong if this is going to work."
"As a result - if someone wants to run say Banshees, or Scorpions, or Incubi, the most efficient way to do it will be Ynnari".
Now there is a problem if "Ynnari Banshees are the most broken thing in the game" - but having alternative buffs gives you design space. "These units are good as Ynnari", "These units are good as Alaitoc", "this specific build works with this Harlequin Masque" etc.
I mean nothing stopped you taking a big Eldar assault infantry army with say Saim Hann and the Avatar of Khaine supported by Strife or cursed blade Wyches. But it wasn't very good, which is why most people probably never saw it.
We can only speculate what GW intention were when they redesign Ynnari.
Activatable trait should to give the army big bonus and not to be comparable with the passives from the main factions. For me they were so scared from making mistake they redesign them in the most boring way possible, without making them totally unplayable. At least they could have made your trait to be active until your next turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 06:56:29
2019/05/07 10:15:12
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
I always felt the old trait was a nice homage to tomb kings. For the most part tomb kings magic where incatations where you acted outside regular time. Marching or attacking. Qnd both where dead themed. But it really was out of place. This new trait is OK ish.
But you need named characters? How small are the ynari? Are they just walking around with their possy? I thought this was a new big faction.
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
(Edit: By blade I mean ghostglaive).
Why not make your Succubus into an Archon? That way you get Re-rolls 1 in shooting and melee for all <Reborn Drukhari> and you have the option for the new Relic
Elfric wrote: Could someone clarify the fight first rule? Does this mean we even fight first even in our opponents fight phase?
If something died that turn, then yes.
Here's a couple of examples:
1) An opponent kills nothing before combat then charges with a unit of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units.
The Genestealers fight first and kill a unit of Wyches, now the Wyches have Always Strike First, but it doesn't matter as they all just fight now anyway.
2) An opponent kills nothing before combat then charges with tow units of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units.
The first Genestealers fight first and kill a unit of Wyches, now the Wyches have Always Strike First, so a unit of Wyches fights next, before the second unit of stealers.
3) An opponent shoots a Venom to death then charges with two units of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units
The first Genestealers fight first (as it's their turn so they get first pick) and fail to kill a unit of Wyches, the Wyches already have Always Strike First (because of the dead venom), so a unit of Wyches fights next, before the second unit of stealers.
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
(Edit: By blade I mean ghostglaive).
Why not make your Succubus into an Archon? That way you get Re-rolls 1 in shooting and melee for all <Reborn Drukhari> and you have the option for the new Relic
The succubus is 26 points cheaper, which is often important in and of itself. And reaver shooting is nothing to write home about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 10:58:30
2019/05/07 11:04:43
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
Elfric wrote: Could someone clarify the fight first rule? Does this mean we even fight first even in our opponents fight phase?
Who every players turn it is will always get the 1st option.
But there are 3 phases in which you can fight, Fight 1st, normal fighting, fight last.
Lets say an Ork player charged you, the Ork player will still gets to pick 1 unit to fight with first, but b.c he has 2 other "fight first" units and all of yours are also "fight first" you alternate, he goes, you go, he goes, you go, you do this until all "fight first" as gone, then you continue to normal combat, he again gets to pick first b.c it is his turn, then you go to fight last, and he again will pick first
Remember to do all combats in each phase, if you have 7 fight first, you get to do them all before non-fight first, so if he had 2 fight first and 2 non fight first, those 2 non fight first will have to wait for all 7 of yours.
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 12:22:02
2019/05/07 12:04:35
Subject: Re:Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
Is that wounds taken? Alaitoc takes more wounds from Lascannons?
2019/05/07 13:17:30
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
Is that wounds taken? Alaitoc takes more wounds from Lascannons?
It's shots to kill.
2019/05/07 13:25:14
Subject: Index Ynnari Tactica: The Reborn and Rebirth of Balance (Edition 8.2 May 2019)
With both I'm looking to make good use of the +1 attack strat (the reavers, wraithblades, and wyches being the assorted primary).
List 1 has more mobility (and CP). Yvraine and Visarch ride in the serpent, archon and yncarne footslog with wyches. It can also flex to add more wraithblades by dropping the serpent and a few wyches and dropping a ranger unit to storm guardians.
Personally I like list 2 a little more content-wise. The reavers help tie things in early and give the wyches time to slam into stuff. All the characters footslog with the wyches, except the autarch who acts like a mini-slam captain. Very CP starved though.
Beastmen 10k
