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Martel732 wrote:
I realize the FAQ made non-trivial changes. But I can tell you from banging my head now for a while that power armor melee just doesn't work out mathematically. You run out power armor before anyone who's any good runs out of dum dums. The dum dums are too durable per point OR the power armor isn't killy enough per point OR the power armor isn't durable enough per point.

The fly thing doesn't really address straight up losing the attrition war. Mixing in primaris can shift the numbers, but the fact that the gravis units are easily killed by lasguns is a serioius problem.

Except that we now have PA that is recyclable.

I could imagine a attrition RC list working.

That's an interesting specific fix. Now for the other 5 codices or so with power armor problems...

This is why I really think some should go away...

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting specific fix. Now for the other 5 codices or so with power armor problems...

This is why I really think some should go away...

I guess that you will see more marines anyways, the new beta rule is great, and for CSM the only cheaper usefull alternative now is R&H which is not really an option except for CP, which however is done again better by RC, so yes Chaos side wise you will see more squads, mostly MSU but also maybee the odd skew list.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I still believe Necron Gauss weapons should do Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of a 6.

All the fluff states how terrible it must be to have molecule thick layers peeled from your body when struck by Gauss. Currently they don't even have special rules, just a -1 AP...

That would make them the most broken army in the game with a snap of the finger. How about no.

Martel732 wrote:
I realize the FAQ made non-trivial changes. But I can tell you from banging my head now for a while that power armor melee just doesn't work out mathematically. You run out power armor before anyone who's any good runs out of dum dums. The dum dums are too durable per point OR the power armor isn't killy enough per point OR the power armor isn't durable enough per point.

The fly thing doesn't really address straight up losing the attrition war. Mixing in primaris can shift the numbers, but the fact that the gravis units are easily killed by lasguns is a serioius problem.

I'd say marines are dead this edition/forever (since this is supposed to be a living rule set) unless drastic changes are made to multiple codes not just marines specifically

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting specific fix. Now for the other 5 codices or so with power armor problems...

This is why I really think some should go away...

Well, looking at that Dallas Open tournament some more it seems like Power Armor > Cultists seems to be a thing in chaos lists. 7 squads of rubrics in that winning Thousand Sons list, and it looks like this tournament was even before the FAQ that significantly buffed them by removing their annoying little tendency to firecracker when they Perils.

So that seems to be Thousand Sons down, Deathwatch down, CSMs possibly down (Hearing lots of rumbling about how good CSM squads are now in a lot of different configurations). It seems like even you are slowly migrating towards "Power armored melee can never work" from "power armor can never work."

It's worked several times with Bobby G castle.

1K sons have a pretty good mono %.

These are significant deviations from standard power armor dudes though.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting specific fix. Now for the other 5 codices or so with power armor problems...

This is why I really think some should go away...

Well, looking at that Dallas Open tournament some more it seems like Power Armor > Cultists seems to be a thing in chaos lists. 7 squads of rubrics in that winning Thousand Sons list, and it looks like this tournament was even before the FAQ that significantly buffed them by removing their annoying little tendency to firecracker when they Perils.

So that seems to be Thousand Sons down, Deathwatch down, CSMs possibly down (Hearing lots of rumbling about how good CSM squads are now in a lot of different configurations). It seems like even you are slowly migrating towards "Power armored melee can never work" from "power armor can never work."

You can make a CSM unit work by buffing it out the wazzo with prayers (new uncounterable spells). Ofc they would always be better on something like...Noise marines. You can bring a 20 man marine squad back to life with a strat though. It has very little to do with the units themselves. Choas has just become absurdly good at buffing their units.


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Martel732 wrote:
It's worked several times with Bobby G castle.

1K sons have a pretty good mono %.

These are significant deviations from standard power armor dudes though.

In basically index 40k it worked. Before every other army got actual rules / points drops/ and basically every unit used in that build nerfed. Strom ravens / AC Razors/ G man - all nerfed.

It's almost like relative power level is a thing based on this thing called points.

Martel732 wrote:
It's worked several times with Bobby G castle.

1K sons have a pretty good mono %.

These are significant deviations from standard power armor dudes though.

Well sure, but they historically have been more in the "demons and goats and cultists" vein than the "40 elite power armored dudes walking at you".

No, I mean how rubric marines work themselves.

Martel732 wrote:
I realize the FAQ made non-trivial changes. But I can tell you from banging my head now for a while that power armor melee just doesn't work out mathematically. You run out power armor before anyone who's any good runs out of dum dums. The dum dums are too durable per point OR the power armor isn't killy enough per point OR the power armor isn't durable enough per point.

The fly thing doesn't really address straight up losing the attrition war. Mixing in primaris can shift the numbers, but the fact that the gravis units are easily killed by lasguns is a serioius problem.

When we sit down and do math we always assume scenarios at parity, but that's not the case on the table.

170 points of intercessors (and bubble support) at 30" kill 20 GEQ when you make them vets and double tap. That, in reality, is something like 3 squads effectively gone and a large section of the board cleared out. Those IS, if deployment went well, can't all strike back if they're in 2 ranks.

But what about Disintegrators? Surely they'll wipe such a large unit of Intercessors? That's the beauty of combat squadding. Versus one army you make the most of force multipliers and versus another you split up and make it harder for them to bring units down. And what's more you can get a 5+++ with an ancient for primaris (and a 5++ if you feel like taking that spell).

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I still believe Necron Gauss weapons should do Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of a 6.

All the fluff states how terrible it must be to have molecule thick layers peeled from your body when struck by Gauss. Currently they don't even have special rules, just a -1 AP...

A lot of things that used to do more have no rules.

Skitarii Rangers used to get Precision Shots on 6s with their Galvanic Rifles. Transauranic Arquebi used to roll 2D6 and add it together for Armour Penetration(incidentally, the reasoning for this was great...but it wasn't applied to fighting Monstrous/Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures and caused a weapon that was supposed to be equally effective against Big Things of all types, only was great against vehicles) because of their Armourbane rule.

Hopefully if/when Necrons get Gauss revisited, it's like the Infiltrator's Bolt Carbines. Hit rolls of 6s automatically hit and wound, no rolling necessary, but it's not a Mortal Wound so saves can still be taken.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I realize the FAQ made non-trivial changes. But I can tell you from banging my head now for a while that power armor melee just doesn't work out mathematically. You run out power armor before anyone who's any good runs out of dum dums. The dum dums are too durable per point OR the power armor isn't killy enough per point OR the power armor isn't durable enough per point.

The fly thing doesn't really address straight up losing the attrition war. Mixing in primaris can shift the numbers, but the fact that the gravis units are easily killed by lasguns is a serioius problem.

When we sit down and do math we always assume scenarios at parity, but that's not the case on the table.

170 points of intercessors (and bubble support) at 30" kill 20 GEQ when you make them vets and double tap. That, in reality, is something like 3 squads effectively gone and a large section of the board cleared out. Those IS, if deployment went well, can't all strike back if they're in 2 ranks.

But what about Disintegrators? Surely they'll wipe such a large unit of Intercessors? That's the beauty of combat squadding. Versus one army you make the most of force multipliers and versus another you split up and make it harder for them to bring units down. And what's more you can get a 5+++ with an ancient for primaris (and a 5++ if you feel like taking that spell).

I'm aware that vet intercessors are one of the best units for killing geq now. BA don't get them, of course. I am in the progress in putting intercessors and infiltrators in all my lists instead of the 1W counterparts.

If I'm using shield of sanguinius, I'll probably still want the squad of 10. Combat squadding doesn't help when the ravagers can just split fire weapon by weapon.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm aware that vet intercessors are one of the best units for killing geq now. BA don't get them, of course. I am in the progress in putting intercessors and infiltrators in all my lists instead of the 1W counterparts.

If I'm using shield of sanguinius, I'll probably still want the squad of 10. Combat squadding doesn't help when the ravagers can just split fire weapon by weapon.

I've never seen a restriction for BA not getting Indomitus. Where is that?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm aware that vet intercessors are one of the best units for killing geq now. BA don't get them, of course. I am in the progress in putting intercessors and infiltrators in all my lists instead of the 1W counterparts.

If I'm using shield of sanguinius, I'll probably still want the squad of 10. Combat squadding doesn't help when the ravagers can just split fire weapon by weapon.

I've never seen a restriction for BA not getting Indomitus. Where is that?

Vigilus Defiant designer's commentary:

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or
Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?

A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space
Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes
units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists,
Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron
Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Ah that's gakky.

I have my view that DA, BA, and SW are all expendable for a reason. GW even treats them that way.

SW have a viable CC unit in Wulfen and really nice devs, but still place 5% worse on average than vanilla and DA plasma shenanigans place no better.

Vet intercessors ARE nice. But all those factions have to soup them in.

To be honest, Space Marines now have 4 troop choices. I find it hard to cry for Tactical Marines.

Intercessors are decent, and scouts are good. Of some note, I don't think one should go all-in on intercessors, they're too expensive to be hiding on backfield objectives out of Line of Sight, but they're very good at mowing down infantry [and light vehicles] in standoff, and fairly good at pushing forward to secure the board middle. I'm warming up on them, at least. The extra 6" of range can be leveraged very effectively, especially against GEQ armies. They actually survive tank gun fire alarmingly well, too.

Scouts are crap. I was sucked into the 15 scouts + smash paradigm for a long time.

11 points is too much for a 1 W model with a 4+ save. And, more importantly, only having a 3+ in cover. They bleed ITC points and kill points. The scout paradigm partially explains the 34% rate for BA players, imo. Based off the FB page, most of them buy into it.

Hopefully if/when Necrons get Gauss revisited, it's like the Infiltrator's Bolt Carbines. Hit rolls of 6s automatically hit and wound, no rolling necessary, but it's not a Mortal Wound so saves can still be taken.

I like auto-wounding on a 6+ (on par with Tesla, has the synergies with Necron buffs, etc etc.), as that solves one of the two main issues with the codex (Troops getting their anti-tank back) but it does make Gauss Immortals look even sadder in the face of Tesla AND Necron Warriors.
The big white Seraptek in the room is that Reanimation Protocols are oppressive in <1500pt games, literal fluff in >1500pt games, and baked into the costs of half of our "mandatory" units. I've never really wanted to go back to a boring 5+++ because actually reanimating your units is really cool, but at this point I'm not sure.

Martel732 wrote:
I have my view that DA, BA, and SW are all expendable for a reason. GW even treats them that way.

SW have a viable CC unit in Wulfen and really nice devs, but still place 5% worse on average than vanilla and DA plasma shenanigans place no better.

Vet intercessors ARE nice. But all those factions have to soup them in.

SW and DA got their own formation for a small part of their codex.

Thousand Sons and DG got nothing out of Vigilance. All armies will get theirs in due time.

They got their own, but nothing nearly as nice as vet intercessors.

Martel732 wrote:
Scouts are crap. I was sucked into the 15 scouts + smash paradigm for a long time.

11 points is too much for a 1 W model with a 4+ save. And, more importantly, only having a 3+ in cover. They bleed ITC points and kill points. The scout paradigm partially explains the 34% rate for BA players, imo. Based off the FB page, most of them buy into it.

This stems from the belief of minimizing all costs to get max CP and spend points elsewhere. It's a bad decision when they could have spent on more useful setups for troop slots and made the rest of the list work with them.

It was the same gak with cultists. 10 man cultists don't do anything. Ever. If you don't have the points and need to fill a 3rd troop spot? Great. Otherwise don't use them unless you're going to push them forward as a 30 man with tons of support.

By elsewhere, it's usually IG or IK, or both. We can already get 5 CP for ~200 pts, there's no reason to bring the scouts.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I still believe Necron Gauss weapons should do Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of a 6.

All the fluff states how terrible it must be to have molecule thick layers peeled from your body when struck by Gauss. Currently they don't even have special rules, just a -1 AP...

I'm gonna say that's a hard no from me...Unless it's like specifically against vehicles/monsters, as a replacement for their previous "auto glance on a six" rule.

We don't need more ways to make weapons a million times better at killing elite infantry than basic goobers.

I would be fine with it only working on vehicles.

Full-on Gauss weapon strikes are usually portrayed, situationaly at least, as being as effective at penetrating adamantium as they are at slicing through flesh.

Martel732 wrote:
By elsewhere, it's usually IG or IK, or both. We can already get 5 CP for ~200 pts, there's no reason to bring the scouts.

Some sort of stigma about being pure. I plan on a Red Corsairs battalion almost all of the time now. I use armigers often as well. People need to get over their soup aversion.

I see the scouts in all kinds of soup lists, though. It's the standard default.

Martel732 wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All types of tournaments. I think ba do better in itc but not by much. Id have to filter the data.

If you take out ITC, BA go down to 28%. I guess that answers your question.

Only ITC, BA are 37%, a sliver above GK.

This has me curious about various faction winrates now myself, can you link your source(s) please?

https://www.40kstats.com/



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For the record, 28% is worse than *I* thought it would be for non-ITC.


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 Lord Clinto wrote:
I still believe Necron Gauss weapons should do Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of a 6.

All the fluff states how terrible it must be to have molecule thick layers peeled from your body when struck by Gauss. Currently they don't even have special rules, just a -1 AP...

Yeah, the factions with mini-grenade launchers that are AP 0 aren't going to be very sympathetic.

Super interesting...

No other marine force has anywhere near the same gap between BA as Primary and faction win % from including them as secondary. We know they have a capable super combo - just need better ways to support it.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All types of tournaments. I think ba do better in itc but not by much. Id have to filter the data.

Ok, well, I think it's pretty important to keep in mind that the FAQ is 9 days old and literally no major would have adopted it for the weekend of the 4th. Working with stale data won't help us.

False, Canadian Tabletop Championship in Ottawa ran it the weekend of the 4th. Big names attended that Major, too.

Smash capt is a crutch that fails vs targets with an invuln save. Hardly good enough to prop up an entire codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Smash capt is a crutch that fails vs targets with an invuln save. Hardly good enough to prop up an entire codex.

that i agree with, a codex should not have one combo circling around one unit and be called good.