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2019/05/08 23:21:54
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Wouldn't you suspect the "generalist army" to not be one of the worst armies in CC? Marines lose to guardsmen in CC for crying out loud.
This is not a very accurate statement.
Basic marines lose to Catachan IS supported by Harken and a priest. Basic marines otherwise greatly outshine IS in cc.
At DC marine with CS that gets 4 attacks that wound on 2s does not lose to IS.
I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/08 23:32:21
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/08 23:49:35
2019/05/09 00:15:57
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
The problem is that troops statlines really don't matter, the important parts are their cost and sometimes their abilities.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
2019/05/09 00:43:45
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
I am not sure what these numbers even mean man. If they are accurate they certainly don't translate to the game - which is what matters.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/09 00:48:44
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Daedalus81 wrote: Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
Spoiler:
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 00:49:52
2019/05/09 03:11:43
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Daedalus81 wrote: Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
Spoiler:
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
That depends on the Marines and their weaponry.
If they have Chainswords and Bolters the Marines are popping two attacks per model, otherwise they have Bolt Pistols and Bolters which means if - and this is a BIG if - the Guard stay in CC with the Marines they're also going to wear a shooting round of Bolt Pistols in the face which kind of levels it out.
Problem is unless the Marines manage to encircle them or pin them against something that's never going to happen.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
2019/05/09 03:24:28
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Daedalus81 wrote: Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
Spoiler:
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
I'm getting that Space Marines are better at killing IG point-for-point than Guard are at killing Space Marines.
Spoiler:
These plots are generated using 1000 trials, and recording the number of wounds dealt, then dividing that by the unit point cost.
Also note that Intercessors are slightly less efficient than Tacticals at killing Guardsmen, but they have standoff potential and better survivability for fairly minimal gain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 03:27:09
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/05/09 03:39:05
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Wouldn't you suspect the "generalist army" to not be one of the worst armies in CC? Marines lose to guardsmen in CC for crying out loud.
This is not a very accurate statement.
Basic marines lose to Catachan IS supported by Harken and a priest. Basic marines otherwise greatly outshine IS in cc.
At DC marine with CS that gets 4 attacks that wound on 2s does not lose to IS.
I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
This scenario assumes several things: That someone would try to multicharge 15 DC into 6 units of IS, That the DC would survive the 60 shots of overwatch intact, The DC only kill 20 with @45 attacks (2 each plus 1 for the chainsword x 15, not sure if DC get extra attacks for charging), The DC lose no models in the combat, There is enough room left between the 2 forces that the IS do not need to Fall Back and thus can charge during the Fight phase...
So lets ask: If the DC charge the IS and survive the overwatch intact, how is the damage to the IS (assumed to be @20 models) distributed? Two whole units gone thus leaving a gap in the line, or 3-4 models per unit? In the first case the next step is consolidation. In the second the IS have to take a LD check for each unit at a max LD of 7. Since IM do not have the "Mob Up" Ability to boost their LD, they would need to roll less than a 5 on two dice for each unit to avoid additional losses.
So lets further assume IS loses an additional 10 models to morale. This leaves 6 units at around 1/2 strength each, that would have to shoot as individual units, since no "Mob Up" ability. That's 10 shots (on average) at 4+ to hit and 5+ to wound from each IM/IS unit. I think the DC losing 8 models here is a bit much given the 3+ save. Then the IS would need to charge into the DC, who have Bolt Pistols and can fire overwatch (assuming base DC). Even if the remaining DC get wiped, they should do enough damage to the IS to force another Morale Check which would reduce their numbers even more.
Total costs for involved units: DC=255 for 1 unit, IM=240 for 6 units.
So, while this one unit of BA is taking on 6 units of IM, what is the rest of the BA army doing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 03:58:22
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
Wouldn't you suspect the "generalist army" to not be one of the worst armies in CC? Marines lose to guardsmen in CC for crying out loud.
This is not a very accurate statement.
Basic marines lose to Catachan IS supported by Harken and a priest. Basic marines otherwise greatly outshine IS in cc.
At DC marine with CS that gets 4 attacks that wound on 2s does not lose to IS.
I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
This scenario assumes several things: That someone would try to multicharge 15 DC into 6 units of IS, That the DC would survive the 60 shots of overwatch intact, The DC only kill 20 with @45 attacks (2 each plus 1 for the chainsword x 15, not sure if DC get extra attacks for charging), The DC lose no models in the combat, There is enough room left between the 2 forces that the IS do not need to Fall Back and thus can charge during the Fight phase...
So lets ask: If the DC charge the IS and survive the overwatch intact, how is the damage to the IS (assumed to be @20 models) distributed? Two whole units gone thus leaving a gap in the line, or 3-4 models per unit? In the first case the next step is consolidation. In the second the IS have to take a LD check for each unit at a max LD of 7. Since IM do not have the "Mob Up" Ability to boost their LD, they would need to roll less than a 5 on two dice for each unit to avoid additional losses.
So lets further assume IS loses an additional 10 models to morale. This leaves 6 units at around 1/2 strength each, that would have to shoot as individual units, since no "Mob Up" ability. That's 10 shots (on average) at 4+ to hit and 5+ to wound from each IM/IS unit. I think the DC losing 8 models here is a bit much given the 3+ save. Then the IS would need to charge into the DC, who have Bolt Pistols and can fire overwatch (assuming base DC). Even if the remaining DC get wiped, they should do enough damage to the IS to force another Morale Check which would reduce their numbers even more.
Total costs for involved units: DC=255 for 1 unit, IM=240 for 6 units.
So, while this one unit of BA is taking on 6 units of IM, what is the rest of the BA army doing?
its also worth noting that the 6+ fnp would be at its most useful in this incredibly ridiculous scenario.
2019/05/09 05:13:32
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
I know it seems counter intuitive especially as it runs against the refrain about IS, but -
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 / 13 = 0.023
1 * .5 * .333 * .333 / 4 = 0.014
If you were to assume FB then the IS go to 0.020 as they're now effectively 5.5 ppm. Catachan is the only place that matters and these days people should be sniping out that priest and harken.
None of this is really going to change the perception of marines - especially as that's not the kind of marine you want punching.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 05:13:46
2019/05/09 05:18:28
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Guardsmen aren't about doing damage really. That's never been my contention. The damage is icing. It's about cheap bodies that get in the way and overload the enemy list from a number of shots perspective. The guardsmen aren't that scary until they are in context. That is, protecting crazy efficient shooting units. They're paying 300-400 pts to make the rest of the list immune to assault.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 05:23:25
2019/05/09 05:24:25
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Martel732 wrote: Guardsmen aren't about doing damage really. That's never been my contention. The damage is icing. It's about cheap bodies that get in the way and overload the enemy list from a number of shots perspective. The guardsmen aren't that scary until they are in context. That is, protecting crazy efficient shooting units.
Melee units too. It is a hard choice, when the option is to either shot custodes that will butcher half your army, or the troops that just swarmed all the objectives. Now am sure some armies can kill both at the same time, but not all.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/05/09 05:26:23
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
I give the obj and kill the killers. That which is given now can be taken back later if your force isn't crippled. Problem being is that its really easy to cripple a BA army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 05:32:34
2019/05/09 06:16:09
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
That is true for GK too, but that is a fring case. I wonder how the meta is going to deal with IG post FAQ. Would be cool if suddenly something else then eldar or IG mix was at the top. Even for novelity sake.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/05/09 06:17:12
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Daedalus81 wrote: Because it seems like people want efficiencies this is base marine versus base of the noted unit each divided by that unit's cost. Double the marine's value if you wish to assume a chainsword.
Spoiler:
The marine loses to the units in yellow. Not that this is changing anyone's mind about marines.
-Scout
0.012 vs 0.010
-Guardsman
0.023 vs 0.014
-Vet
The Vet will basically be twice as good
-Scion
0.017 vs 0.006
-Storm Guardian
0.023 vs 0.016
-Guardian Defender
0.023 vs 0.009
-Dire Avenger
0.017 vs 0.009
-Ranger (CWE)
0.023 vs 0.006
-Ranger (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.008
-Vanguard (AdMech)
0.017 vs 0.010
-Fire Warrior
0.017 vs 0.005
-Kroot
0.028 vs 0.022
-Necron Warrior
0.013 vs 0.009
Tzaangor
0.017 vs 0.048
-Immortal
0.008 vs 0.014
-Kabalite
0.023 vs 0.010
-Shoota Boy
0.021 vs 0.032
-Slugga Boy
0.021 vs 0.048
-Grot
0.042 vs 0.009
-Hormagaunt
0.028 vs 0.026
-Termigaunt
0.028 vs 0.014
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I am assuming that the game is progressing as normal.
Lets assume DC are charging into 60 IS and kill 20. The following turn they lose 8 DC to shooting and 2-3 more in assault. 4 DC can not beat the 30ish IS that remain. This isn't even using orders or preists and letting the DC go first. Friggen tacticals it's even worse....they do about 1/4 of the total damage as DC.
The goal isn't to kill every model on the board and there is no way they'd be charging 60. If that many were in range the opponent is playing the board very badly.
The point is to make a hole to get units into what's behind them, which the DC can do decently well.
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
I'm getting that Space Marines are better at killing IG point-for-point than Guard are at killing Space Marines.
Spoiler:
These plots are generated using 1000 trials, and recording the number of wounds dealt, then dividing that by the unit point cost.
Also note that Intercessors are slightly less efficient than Tacticals at killing Guardsmen, but they have standoff potential and better survivability for fairly minimal gain.
Yeah no you have done something wrong in your math somewhere.
Tacs kill 7 points of guard with 65 points of tacs
Guard kill 8 points of marines with 40 points of IS
Guard are more efficient killing marines in CC than marines are at killing guard.
I know it seems counter intuitive especially as it runs against the refrain about IS, but -
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 / 13 = 0.023
1 * .5 * .333 * .333 / 4 = 0.014
If you were to assume FB then the IS go to 0.020 as they're now effectively 5.5 ppm. Catachan is the only place that matters and these days people should be sniping out that priest and harken.
None of this is really going to change the perception of marines - especially as that's not the kind of marine you want punching.
Yeah that's not an efficiency value though thats wounds per point.
.023x4= .092 points
.014x13=.182 points.
You have to take into account the value of those wounds your causing, Guard kills almost twice as many points of tacs in CC that is a problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 06:40:02
2019/05/09 07:44:18
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Also note that Intercessors are slightly less efficient than Tacticals at killing Guardsmen, but they have standoff potential and better survivability for fairly minimal gain.
What? Intercessors have twice the attacks for much less than twice the cost. Certainly the Intercesors are are more efficient than Tacticals!
To be honest that data shows the game is in a great place if you just... ignore power armor.
Everything between 45%-55% is fine. And thats basically all of the game with the exception of loyalist power armour (With the exception of deathwatch of course) and Adeptus Custodes, but not by much. (They are nearly 45% of victories, something thats impresive for a Codex that, without FW, is totally lacking of options and only competes on the back of jetbikes)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 13:36:25
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/09 13:53:18
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/09 14:01:17
Subject: Re:April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
When you look at the bottom half of that list, you have:
Renegade Knights: Is barely an army, more of a bolt-on (as Knights probably should be!)
Custodes: I hear the army is pretty balanced (as much as an army can be) when you incorporate the FW models, would like to hear a second opinion on that tho.
AdMech: They're getting a fancy new transport soon, so I'll pass judgement later
Necrons: Give Reanimation Protocols something to do when the unit gets wiped (Beta Rule?) and the codex is fine
Harlequins: Now the FLY rule has been un-junked, I'm sure they'll do a bit better
AND
Power Armor: Tactical Marines are trash and anything built off of a Tactical framework is trash by association. Unlike the previous factions, the rule-set is rotten to the core.
2019/05/09 14:02:50
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Yeah that's not an efficiency value though thats wounds per point.
.023x4= .092 points
.014x13=.182 points.
You have to take into account the value of those wounds your causing, Guard kills almost twice as many points of tacs in CC that is a problem.
Sorry, my mistake on miswording the values that, but the math you did there basically backs it into damage.
Look at it this way -
It takes 3.4 marine attacks to kill an IS.
An IS needs 18.2 attacks to kill a marine.
The marine pays 44 points to do its job. The IS pays 73 points.
2019/05/09 14:06:40
Subject: Re:April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Phaeron Gukk wrote: When you look at the bottom half of that list, you have:
Renegade Knights: Is barely an army, more of a bolt-on (as Knights probably should be!)
Custodes: I hear the army is pretty balanced (as much as an army can be) when you incorporate the FW models, would like to hear a second opinion on that tho.
AdMech: They're getting a fancy new transport soon, so I'll pass judgement later
Necrons: Give Reanimation Protocols something to do when the unit gets wiped (Beta Rule?) and the codex is fine
Harlequins: Now the FLY rule has been un-junked, I'm sure they'll do a bit better
AND
Power Armor: Tactical Marines are trash and anything built off of a Tactical framework is trash by association. Unlike the previous factions, the rule-set is rotten to the core.
Can't speak for many of them but Custodes get mostly an actual filled out roster through FW which rounds the army alot.
Power armor, frankly the profile is just not worth 13 pts anymore, especially on the chaos side through the loss of chainswords for 2 melee attacks.
Reeimplement that and lower price to 11 pts and you would get an profile that is worth it, ofcourse that would also mean that by assosciation you would need to lower the pts off all marine units by 2 pts. (incases of terminators maybee more, maybee less)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/05/09 14:07:21
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Yeah that's not an efficiency value though thats wounds per point.
.023x4= .092 points
.014x13=.182 points.
You have to take into account the value of those wounds your causing, Guard kills almost twice as many points of tacs in CC that is a problem.
Sorry, my mistake on miswording the values that, but the math you did there basically backs it into damage.
Look at it this way -
It takes 3.4 marine attacks to kill an IS.
An IS needs 18.2 attacks to kill a marine.
The marine pays 44 points to do its job. The IS pays 73 points.
No your missing the point
Thats 44 points to kill a 4 point wound so a 9% return rate
73 points to kill a 13 point marine is a 17% return rate
Infantry squads are more efficient at killing marines than marines are at killing guard.
2019/05/09 14:32:46
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Yeah that's not an efficiency value though thats wounds per point.
.023x4= .092 points
.014x13=.182 points.
You have to take into account the value of those wounds your causing, Guard kills almost twice as many points of tacs in CC that is a problem.
Sorry, my mistake on miswording the values that, but the math you did there basically backs it into damage.
Look at it this way -
It takes 3.4 marine attacks to kill an IS.
An IS needs 18.2 attacks to kill a marine.
The marine pays 44 points to do its job. The IS pays 73 points.
Why not a PPD calculation. I'm really tired and don't want to do math right now but I'm pretty sure I have seen this already. Marines lose pretty hard to IS in basically every scenario.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/09 14:35:37
Subject: Re:April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Phaeron Gukk wrote: When you look at the bottom half of that list, you have:
Renegade Knights: Is barely an army, more of a bolt-on (as Knights probably should be!)
Custodes: I hear the army is pretty balanced (as much as an army can be) when you incorporate the FW models, would like to hear a second opinion on that tho.
AdMech: They're getting a fancy new transport soon, so I'll pass judgement later
Necrons: Give Reanimation Protocols something to do when the unit gets wiped (Beta Rule?) and the codex is fine
Harlequins: Now the FLY rule has been un-junked, I'm sure they'll do a bit better
AND
Power Armor: Tactical Marines are trash and anything built off of a Tactical framework is trash by association. Unlike the previous factions, the rule-set is rotten to the core.
I play pure RK, just saying. While it doesn't have the support of other armies, I still think it's worth mentioning. There are some armies that just can't handle a 7 knight list.
2019/05/09 14:38:36
Subject: April FAQs released (PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs)
Galas wrote: To be honest that data shows the game is in a great place if you just... ignore power armor.
Everything between 45%-55% is fine. And thats basically all of the game with the exception of loyalist power armour (With the exception of deathwatch of course) and Adeptus Custodes, but not by much. (They are nearly 45% of victories, something thats impresive for a Codex that, without FW, is totally lacking of options and only competes on the back of jetbikes)
By Power armour I guess you mean Marines (except Deathwatch) - -Sororitas is at 49%
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
