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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.

Which is represented by their WS & BS
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.


More like GK's are SS3, Deathwatch are no better than Astartes, they are only a specialised form of Astartes.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Isn't the Marine Bolters being better just a balance change? And ignoring a bit of fluff you can explain away anyway to improce balance is a good thing right? Someone tell me why this is so bad.


I'm not against the rule, I collect SW's as well, its the fluff I don't like. All I want to GW is to be consistent, they have ruined the lore. 40k lore is a joke now.

They ruined the lore by having space marines be better at shooting bolters?

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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.


More like GK's are SS3, Deathwatch are no better than Astartes, they are only a specialised form of Astartes.


I have no sympathy for this position whatsoever. It's a game, and this is a rule about how a particular type of gun works for a particular army.

It has absolutely no effect on the lore. This is just ridiculous.
   
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Deathwatch still get bolter discipline, just not with their fancy ammo. Honestly makes sense even in a fluff perspective.

SIA is supposed to be pretty rare in the fluff. Only deathwatch gets it on everyone, and even then you can only expect 1 clip of each type (mabey 2 for hellfire). They shouldn't be SPAMMING it.



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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Deathwatch still get bolter discipline, just not with their fancy ammo. Honestly makes sense even in a fluff perspective.

SIA is supposed to be pretty rare in the fluff. Only deathwatch gets it on everyone, and even then you can only expect 1 clip of each type (mabey 2 for hellfire). They shouldn't be SPAMMING it.

That is a very valid fluff reason for it that I did not think of. I completely understand the balance reason for the DW ruling, but it is nice to have an in lore reasoning for it as well!
   
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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Deathwatch still get bolter discipline, just not with their fancy ammo. Honestly makes sense even in a fluff perspective.

SIA is supposed to be pretty rare in the fluff. Only deathwatch gets it on everyone, and even then you can only expect 1 clip of each type (mabey 2 for hellfire). They shouldn't be SPAMMING it.




So, like when Hurricane Bolters on the Blackstar fire it?

I'm actually surprised they allowed DW vehicles to get SIA.
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


So, like when Hurricane Bolters on the Blackstar fire it?

I'm actually surprised they allowed DW vehicles to get SIA.


Deathwatch vehicles that arent Dreadnoughts do not get bolter discpline (or SIA).
   
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The Blackstar is such a sad ball of despair that they let is spam SIA so it can feel better about itself I suppose

Oh yeah, SIA is not given to vehicles anyway. Do not often run em with DW so forgot about that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 15:57:57


 
   
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This Blackstar is just a bit too expensive, but that's a side effect of being a flying transport in this edition.

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 ikeulhu wrote:
The Blackstar is such a sad ball of despair that they let is spam SIA so it can feel better about itself I suppose


SIA is a datasheet ability, not an army wide rule. Non-infantry/bike units dont get it.
   
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Yup, I only run bikes with my DW when it comes to vehicles, so I forgot about that little caveat.
   
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 Stux wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.


More like GK's are SS3, Deathwatch are no better than Astartes, they are only a specialised form of Astartes.


I have no sympathy for this position whatsoever. It's a game, and this is a rule about how a particular type of gun works for a particular army.

It has absolutely no effect on the lore. This is just ridiculous.


We are talking about the different levels of super saiyans they would be... We aren't talking about the rule.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 ikeulhu wrote:
The Blackstar is such a sad ball of despair that they let is spam SIA so it can feel better about itself I suppose


SIA is a datasheet ability, not an army wide rule. Non-infantry/bike units dont get it.


And even if it did hurricane bolters aren't on the list of things that can use SIA.

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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Um, Custodians literally have the Blood Games, where they compete to the death with their weapons to find ways to improve. They are essentially the SSJ4 Humans. Space Marines are SSJ2s, and Deathwatch is SSJ3. Catachans are SSJB.

More like GK's are SS3, Deathwatch are no better than Astartes, they are only a specialised form of Astartes.

Actually they are, unless you get someone from a-hole chapter sending you dregs. The typical DW marine is supposed to be first company/honor guard/officer material. That's why they can afford to have one captain/librarian/chaplain for 'company' of 10-40 astartes, not 100 like usual Chapter one.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
chaselaporte wrote:
So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|


Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....

Agreed.

Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.


They have tons of design space to fix marines. The 'layers and layers of supermarines' thing is a fluff complaint that couldn't possibly reduce the design space.

You know what they actually don't have design space to fix? Guilleman. As long as Guilleman is a viable option in the space marine codex, space marine's will be gak. Any model that's usable without reroll to hit and reroll to wound is out and out busted with them.

And tactical marines will never be good. The only time they've been good in years was when you could scout a grav cannon up field in a free rhino with them.


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It just shows you how contrived and ill thought out the bolter ruke was, GW even admit that they only made the rule to make Astartes better.


Why is that a bad thing exactly ? Why shouldn't they make a rule to make marines better, has a good fluff feel and gives them a little more bite ? Custodes don't need the help, I'm sure sisters will have a good cost and plenty of their own tricks.

It's no real mystery marines are over costed, most of their vehicles are bland and flavorless and the strength of the army is supposed to be in the space marine infantry. Buffing that infantry seems to be the good path forward.
   
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AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It just shows you how contrived and ill thought out the bolter ruke was, GW even admit that they only made the rule to make Astartes better.


Why is that a bad thing exactly ? Why shouldn't they make a rule to make marines better, has a good fluff feel and gives them a little more bite ? Custodes don't need the help, I'm sure sisters will have a good cost and plenty of their own tricks.

It's no real mystery marines are over costed, most of their vehicles are bland and flavorless and the strength of the army is supposed to be in the space marine infantry. Buffing that infantry seems to be the good path forward.


yeah I'm a bit baffled ehre, does Del think GW should instead nerf everyone else?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It just shows you how contrived and ill thought out the bolter ruke was, GW even admit that they only made the rule to make Astartes better.


Why is that a bad thing exactly ? Why shouldn't they make a rule to make marines better, has a good fluff feel and gives them a little more bite ? Custodes don't need the help, I'm sure sisters will have a good cost and plenty of their own tricks.

It's no real mystery marines are over costed, most of their vehicles are bland and flavorless and the strength of the army is supposed to be in the space marine infantry. Buffing that infantry seems to be the good path forward.


yeah I'm a bit baffled ehre, does Del think GW should instead nerf everyone else?


right, nerf everyone else rather than helping the armies/units that need it. that makes sense. if the real problems with marines are points & rules, then maybe addressing those instead might do the trick.

Now I am in no way defending GW & their rules/whatevs. if you think you can do better, I'm sure GW would be happy to hear you bit€h & moan about how terrible their game is and how you have all the right answers.

I happen to think that the bolter rule is pretty good(it should apply to any marine unit with a bolter) if the chapter tactic applied to all marine units they would be in a better place.
[Thumb - 8b66786a380ffa6e2f4dbd70cb59f880_93804970698248(2).jpg]
see all marines are good with their guns

   
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Well that is how I viewed the rule to say that marines take firing their rifle as an art form, so they can more easily manage the recoil/range to get those double tap shots down range even outside half range with accuracy, while other less heavily trained marksman would need to be closer.

I like the mental reasoning of not wasting the SIA so they don't go all beta bolter with that ammo. However I'd point out that even in the current deathwatch codex they do say that the SIA is used even in their vehicles. I'd like it if that was true.

You could say as well Custodes focus on so many other martial means that being such a marksman with a bolter weapon really isn't as important to them. They do seem to take a lot of stock in CC so perhaps their focus is more on that end. While marines live or die with the bolter and their skills with it.

I mean look at imperial fists who be loving them bolter drills. Look as well to the space wolves who love their bolter so much they use the pistol grip to engage with them even in CC ala True Grit.

I'm sure for Custodes a bolter is great, but they much prefer not to gun down a foe but instead prove their true greatness by rending their enemy face to face. They can afford to be less tactical as they aren't meant as an army and more of a super elite, prestigious bodyguard group/display of power. They are made to be huge, flashy and hit like a truck leaving a wreck in their wake. Not so much being expert marksmen.

Where as marines while having the ability to do both CC and shooting tend to do better with marksmen work to thin the enemy down and then crush them up close as they aren't nearly as dominating in the CC department, that can go with the Deathwatch as well as they have higher shooting emphasis with SIA being their thing to boost fire power.
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
chaselaporte wrote:
So I keep getting really annoyed that despite guardian spears being described as "Elegant and deadly, it is a potent and unique design incorporating a Power Blade and a highly advanced integrated Bolter weapon" (Among other descriptions of them being essentially bolters)they lack the bolter keyword so I cannot take advantage of the new bolter rules. Any word from gw about them clarifying this?
|


Bolter Discipline was not made for your army, it was made in an attempt to fix the glaring issues with Marine units. Custodians are very viable and one of the deadliest CC units in the whole game, I don't really thing you need the rule....

Agreed.

Essentially GW is out of design space to fix marines because they have decided to make layers and layers of even more super marines. Their only options at this point at to make vanilla marines and CSM stronger via an ability or special rule (it can't be a stat increase or they will just become custodians) OR lower their points. They decided on a special rule. Custodian bikers with Astartes bolter rule would make the game unplayable. LOL.


Not to mention D2 weapon gun lines of Custodian Guard. It's amazing how they truly aren't winning more pure tournaments.


Bible wrapped Castellan was to much for them, if you are killing 4 pts models and you are losing 100 pts per model it can go ugly fast.
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It just shows you how contrived and ill thought out the bolter ruke was, GW even admit that they only made the rule to make Astartes better.


Why is that a bad thing exactly ? Why shouldn't they make a rule to make marines better, has a good fluff feel and gives them a little more bite ? Custodes don't need the help, I'm sure sisters will have a good cost and plenty of their own tricks.

It's no real mystery marines are over costed, most of their vehicles are bland and flavorless and the strength of the army is supposed to be in the space marine infantry. Buffing that infantry seems to be the good path forward.


yeah I'm a bit baffled ehre, does Del think GW should instead nerf everyone else?


I never said that, its just a daft rule and I'd rather they did something with making marines more survivable.
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said that, its just a daft rule and I'd rather they did something with making marines more survivable.

They did. Primaris marines have two wounds.

   
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 Crimson wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said that, its just a daft rule and I'd rather they did something with making marines more survivable.

They did. Primaris marines have two wounds.

Which means about as much as gluing a napkin on your power armour these days seeing so many completely stupid things have D2 even where it makes no sense whatsoever. It honestly looks like GW writers are having competitions on how many anti-primaris guns they can cram into their books, even when it's junk bashed together in a basement by illiterate cultists (looking at you, GSC and CSM...). They should really either cut damage across the board or give SM (and especially primaris) either FNP or halving damage taken if the strenght of weapon is equal to or lesser than T of model...
   
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 Irbis wrote:

Which means about as much as gluing a napkin on your power armour these days seeing so many completely stupid things have D2 even where it makes no sense whatsoever. It honestly looks like GW writers are having competitions on how many anti-primaris guns they can cram into their books, even when it's junk bashed together in a basement by illiterate cultists (looking at you, GSC and CSM...). They should really either cut damage across the board or give SM (and especially primaris) either FNP or halving damage taken if the strenght of weapon is equal to or lesser than T of model...

Fair point.

   
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 Crimson wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said that, its just a daft rule and I'd rather they did something with making marines more survivable.

They did. Primaris marines have two wounds.


intreastingly Primaris Marines are almost exactly what marine players asked for back in 7th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said that, its just a daft rule and I'd rather they did something with making marines more survivable.

They did. Primaris marines have two wounds.

Which means about as much as gluing a napkin on your power armour these days seeing so many completely stupid things have D2 even where it makes no sense whatsoever. It honestly looks like GW writers are having competitions on how many anti-primaris guns they can cram into their books, even when it's junk bashed together in a basement by illiterate cultists (looking at you, GSC and CSM...). They should really either cut damage across the board or give SM (and especially primaris) either FNP or halving damage taken if the strenght of weapon is equal to or lesser than T of model...


don;t have GSCs but chaos cultists do not have any D2 weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 17:33:51


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And before anyone says GK, those aren't the same thing. Those don't go bang.


They used to...



   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Guardians Spears are bolters, and Bolter Discipline doesn't only depend on being a bolter. If it did, Sisters would also have it.

However, it only applies to Astartes. Custodes are not Astartes, and neither are Sisters, and both apparently don't practice fire discipline.


So those Shield Captains on Bikes can max out their hurricane bolters all the time...
   
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I think people are just generally missing the entire reason the new Bolter Discipline rule exists - GW is trying to fix or band-aid some severerly underperforming units.

Keyword: underperforming

Stop trying to tie it to the weapon or the fluff...even GW is clawing, trying to find fluff justification for it --- the reality is that it's a rule designed to assist Space Marines who are underperforming heavily in this edition. Sisters and Custodes are not underperforming.
   
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I think we all know why the beta bolter rule came into being. I'd like to believe that would be easy enough to notice.

However you aren't wrong to try and find fluff reasoning for it too, this game is interwoven with fluff considerations as much as it is the crunch such fluff invites into the game. It's one of the saving graces of the clunky game system and I hazard to say probably the reason why many long term players stayed for so long in the first place.

I can only speak for myself but if the Fluff of the game wasn't so intermixed with the rules I'd have long ago dropped it for more elegant game systems and not spent the vast amounts I have on my armies. So it is never right to stop trying to justify rules with fluff simply don't mono focus on fluff when things have to happen for rules balance. You can miss the forest for the trees that way.

I doubt the bolter rules really are going to make marines great, it's a good step though. I'd love to see some touch make them more survivable and I'd have to say I think a great many of us would like marines to feel more legitimate as a choice for a hard list. Most of us have a marine army in our cases after all. Hell, I have 4. They still feel good but they are more the armies you taken when you want to live in the fluff fun zone and not perhaps the highly competitive zone.

Marines do have room for adding some interesting rules to increase how tough they are to incoming fire, that also would feel right aside from just Primaris having 2 wounds.
   
 
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