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Reemule wrote:


Example I own every Epub from GW. I keep them in a drop box. I show to the event with my ride and he didn't bring his SM book. I share my Drop box with him and now he has the Epub.

Is that okay? .

Reemule wrote:

If by "share" you mean that you use your same tablet and thus the same file in your Dropbox then its perfectly legal, but likely not practical in a major tournament as you both might require the tablet at the same time. Chances are your friend would not be playing because they would not have access to the rules for their army during the game. .

If by share you mean that you copy the document to his dropbox and his tablet then its not legal because you've distributed material you don't have the right to. However in a practical sense unless you told or did this in front of the officials of the event you'd likely get away with it.

Reemule wrote:

Guy shows up with the old Chaos dex, says he isn't using anything new? You sending him home?.

I'm not aware of what has specifically changed in the new Codex, however one would expect the player to bring the old codex AND the updated rules document with them*, at least if any core rules have changed. If the new codex only adds new models that that player is not using then sure they can play as they would have access to all the rules for their army for the game.

Reemule wrote:

Chess clocks mean my time is my time. If I choose to spend it checking a epub, its good to go. You checking an out of date physical copy isn't good. Sounds shady.

No one said anyone was using out of date codex; the whole premise is that each player brings their updated material to the game. GW doesn't even issue updated PDFs after releasing errata/faq so either way you've still got to have them with you.


Honestly you're trying really hard to argue playing without the rules, which is odd because almost all tournaments have run very easily for decades with the simple rule of bringing the rules with you to play.

*I believe GW published such a document for those who currently own the old codex.

Again, it comes back to the same thing.

Some people keep saying "We want to stop these things"

Me: Cool how you going to do that?

Them: We can't.

Me?????

And then add in that there seems to be this idea you can run wierd formats and people are going to show up begging to play?

Reemule wrote:

And then add in that there seems to be this idea you can run wierd formats and people are going to show up begging to play?

I didn't mention formats at all.
Only that bringing the rules to a tournament is a standard practice and has been done for several decades now whilst being perfectly expected, enforceable and normal.

In fact I'm not aware of a tournament format that doesn't require players to bring all the rules for their army with them.

Yes, that is the norm to have your rules.

But there hasn't be a book check that I've seen. Or some kind of Recast check.

And that was the discussion.

tneva82 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

This is why I compared malestrom to narrative. They are both official ways to play the game. It's just no one wants to play them because they are the least balanced way to play.

Where do you get that from? For me narrative missions are the default game mode, pure eternal war/matched play we do only on special occasions (usually because of time restraints).

He's from america. America is more of ITC. Europe is more of ETC. And for example where I live pretty much all tournaments are combo of eternal war, maelstrom and kill points(max gap 6).

Yeah ITC is big here but really it's just matched play rules + beta rules. For example - we do use TLOS even though we don't have the best terrain. Plus we play 2000-2500 points and sometimes bigger games. We use matched play rules though...like points...I can't even imagine playing the game without points.

Local events allow it - but it tends to be LOW choices/2k points.

They do not allow forgeworld codex/rulesets for armies. Local player had a fairly outdated Red Scorpions list and they said no to it. I run my Barbed Hierodule in most 2k games

Reemule wrote:
Yes, that is the norm to have your rules.

But there hasn't be a book check that I've seen. Or some kind of Recast check.

And that was the discussion.

If you don't do a book/file check, how do you know people have their rules with them?

And I think you're the only person who has mentioned checking for recasts - we've had people say that they would prefer it if people used the original/proper models, but no-one other than you has said anything about checking for recasts, as it is something which is massively impractical to check for. Certainly nowhere as simple as confirming that you have the required rules with you.

If they started checking for recasts....50% of armies would be disqualified. It would be bad for business. I only have 1 FW model it's is legit bought from FW in Nottingham in person (Relic Levi OMG I LOVE THIS) however a fair majority of the FW I see are fakes. If they are painted you can't even tell the difference. I am not even sure how you would check for that.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If they started checking for recasts....50% of armies would be disqualified. It would be bad for business. I only have 1 FW model it's is legit bought from FW in Nottingham in person (Relic Levi OMG I LOVE THIS) however a fair majority of the FW I see are fakes. If they are painted you can't even tell the difference. I am not even sure how you would check for that.

...and the lack of a feasible way of checking for recasts is a good reason not to try to check for them at an event.

Though I would hope the proportion of lists using recasts was nowhere near 50%.

The argument is being brought up by one person as a reason why it is a bad idea to ensure that everyone has their rules with them - which, in turn, came out of the problem of people not fetching the rules for certain FW units to them. Simplest way to solve the latter is to enforce the former, either with physical books or legit ebook/PDFs.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?

Most of the time codex stuff is more pts effective, also moreover most of the FW stuff can't pofit from traits or stratagems which is also a big part in terms off effectiveness.

yes and no. if you look at what precentage of FW stuff is overpowered you're right, most are not point efficient.

but at the same time, the most overpowered and undercoated models are also FW. For example the decimator and the contemptor are hands the best chaos units by such a large margin it's laughable. And for that matter the contemptors tend to be wildly better than anything in any codex that can take them.

Almost every army has one or two FW models who's balance is so out of wack that you see it spammed and suggested to be spammed constantly for every list.

Danny slag wrote:
the most overpowered and undercoated models are also FW.

{citation needed}

Last time I checked guardsmen, castellans, Eldar soup, etc, are not FW units.

Even if we take "FW broken is more broken than GW broken" as true, wouldn't it make sense to just address the few broken models, and not ban everything?

I feel like I'm back in the early 2000s where FW was the devil and the reason for all imbalance. Those days are far behind us.

Tournaments can do whatever they like but when I don't feel like bringing every book I own I do have all the needed points, pages and unit entries as pics for quick reference. Have never had even one person question it as I taught most who I play with and end up knowing their armies like my own.

Sure could someone cheat with digital information, I suppose but isn't that just a reason then to demand paper books ? Anything else is suspect, the evil is creeping in while the cheats grow in the darkness ?

Seems just a touch paranoid, I'd probably say if you feel someone you play with is such a cheating guy, perhaps don't play them anymore ? I guess I'm blessed to just have the rare honest mistake and not feel like each opponent is cut throat for the warhammer win. Would hate to have to be so suspicious each and every game.

Don't worry though, my precious hardback copies are around and ready. So if I get called out for the truth, they can receive the knowledge they crave. Though as said, aside from the rare instance that doesn't happen much.

Danny slag wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?

Most of the time codex stuff is more pts effective, also moreover most of the FW stuff can't pofit from traits or stratagems which is also a big part in terms off effectiveness.

yes and no. if you look at what precentage of FW stuff is overpowered you're right, most are not point efficient.

but at the same time, the most overpowered and undercoated models are also FW. For example the decimator and the contemptor are hands the best chaos units by such a large margin it's laughable. And for that matter the contemptors tend to be wildly better than anything in any codex that can take them.

That's probably more a function of much of the codex being subpar rather than these units being particularly spectacular. These units certainly aren't dominating the metagame nor defining these armies, they're not coming up in conversations about overpowered units in general, and they're not featuring in literally every list run by these codexes.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone call the Decimator overpowered.

Almost every army has one or two FW models who's balance is so out of wack that you see it spammed and suggested to be spammed constantly for every list.

Umm...if there are, it must be a secret to both me and the larger tournament crowd...because I'm certainly not seeing significant FW presence in most armies at all. Mostly where you see it is in SM armies, that have significant functionality issues to begin with.

In fact, going down the first page of the Army List subforum, I don't think I found a single list calling itself competitive that ran any FW units at all.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone call the Decimator overpowered.

Aren't they or the contemptors used in winning chaos soups? Plus with castellan gone, as well as Ynari, they got better. Maybe the people that played them before FAQ, used them because they knew they were going to be better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Even if we take "FW broken is more broken than GW broken" as true, wouldn't it make sense to just address the few broken models, and not ban everything?

Not to GW. They nerfed flying or first turn deep strike, instead of dealing with hive tyrants or BA jump masters.

I have seen a few top chaos lists with deredeos, but not contemptors that I know of.

Danny slag wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?

Most of the time codex stuff is more pts effective, also moreover most of the FW stuff can't pofit from traits or stratagems which is also a big part in terms off effectiveness.

yes and no. if you look at what precentage of FW stuff is overpowered you're right, most are not point efficient.

but at the same time, the most overpowered and undercoated models are also FW. For example the decimator and the contemptor are hands the best chaos units by such a large margin it's laughable. And for that matter the contemptors tend to be wildly better than anything in any codex that can take them.

Almost every army has one or two FW models who's balance is so out of wack that you see it spammed and suggested to be spammed constantly for every list.

The decimator? ( i field one regularly thank you)
Are you now having an actual laugh mate?


Did it maybee ocure to you that the alternatives to the leviathan and the deredo just plain suck?
Also there is a massive difference between a leviathan which costs more points compared to a hellbrute for marginally better stats and armament?

ALSO ALL ARMIES: Stop generalizing, it get's annoying, then take a look at the FW lists themselves which are included in all armies and tell me what excactly is overpowered in these i wait, or what Ork stuff from FW is overpowered, or what IoM non SM vehicle is overpowered, or how well the leviathans and deredos actually compare.

As for the deredo or Leviathan and why it is suggested for Chaos often, because it fills a niche AA role, a role that Chaos often struggles with since GW thought it a good thing to remove Flakk missiles or cost missile launchers overall to the point of WTF.
Secondly: Even the feared butcher autocannon that is on many of these reccomended because it is a good weapon, frankly only better because it is on a 3+ model and not stuck with the forgefiend. (Ironically if you were allowed to equip a Predator with an Hades autocannon or a normal dreadnought / Hellbrute) you would not field them due to stratagems and traits then tipping the balance massively to mainline units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Banville wrote:
Hi there. I was just wondering about this, as most tourney lists posted don't tend to have any FW models. For instance, Leviathan dreads are pretty decent. As are Vultures and Strike Fighters. Yet, they don't seem to appear in tourney lists. Is that because most TOs frown on FW or is it simply that Codex stuff is more points efficient?

Most of the time codex stuff is more pts effective, also moreover most of the FW stuff can't pofit from traits or stratagems which is also a big part in terms off effectiveness.

yes and no. if you look at what precentage of FW stuff is overpowered you're right, most are not point efficient.

but at the same time, the most overpowered and undercoated models are also FW. For example the decimator and the contemptor are hands the best chaos units by such a large margin it's laughable. And for that matter the contemptors tend to be wildly better than anything in any codex that can take them.

That's probably more a function of much of the codex being subpar rather than these units being particularly spectacular. These units certainly aren't dominating the metagame nor defining these armies, they're not coming up in conversations about overpowered units in general, and they're not featuring in literally every list run by these codexes.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone call the Decimator overpowered.

Almost every army has one or two FW models who's balance is so out of wack that you see it spammed and suggested to be spammed constantly for every list.

Umm...if there are, it must be a secret to both me and the larger tournament crowd...because I'm certainly not seeing significant FW presence in most armies at all. Mostly where you see it is in SM armies, that have significant functionality issues to begin with.

In fact, going down the first page of the Army List subforum, I don't think I found a single list calling itself competitive that ran any FW units at all.

Also this, if FW would be so broken you would've seen a lot higher presence in the tournament scene, in 8th one FW model showed up in a soup list, that got nerfed into the ground and is now equally available surprisngly in a better overall version in the regular IG codex, i am talking about the MAlefic lord brimstone spam, and that was INDEX era.
which ironically had a lot other worse problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone call the Decimator overpowered.

Aren't they or the contemptors used in winning chaos soups? Plus with castellan gone, as well as Ynari, they got better. Maybe the people that played them before FAQ, used them because they knew they were going to be better.

The decimator?
You realize the average dred with an reaper autocannon is nearly as good (even better in many cases due to it beeing A LOT cheaper) .

Do some people dislike FW because they are old fashioned and unable to grasp new concepts, or because they are jealous that they can't afford it?

There's no game related reason to do so.

 Ishagu wrote:
Do some people dislike FW because they are old fashioned and unable to grasp new concepts, or because they are jealous that they can't afford it?

There's no game related reason to do so.

Mostly inexperience against playing against FW which makes people make mistakes and or beeing afraid of the unknown.

Ironically when people realize that they are not the be all end all they look like (the models) people don't even bother batting an eye anymore.

You might be right. It's better for everyone to have more model variety. FW is not necessary for success in the game.

Who doesn't want to look at cool units during a game?
The rules are so cheap too. The FW index and free PDFs online...

 Ishagu wrote:
You might be right. It's better for everyone to have more model variety. FW is not necessary for success in the game.

Who doesn't want to look at cool units during a game?
The rules are so cheap too. The FW index and free PDFs online...

Honestly i had people suggesting i should have picked 200-300 pts more then them after they read the R&H rules in order to get a balanced match in.
Never did so, still have a decent win loss ratio and fun, altough it get's grinding when you get that tripple 1 for a LD off 4 for fanatical elite units

Morale of the story tough, now that GW makes the overall rules aswell for FW we might see a power surge for FW due to GW's "infamous competency" of rules design.
Who could forget the glorious combos of the past and present. (albeit with CA balance overall has improved)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Morale of the story tough, now that GW makes the overall rules aswell for FW we might see a power surge for FW due to GW's "infamous competency" of rules design.

More like nerf to ensure gamers buy plastic that has bigger profit rate than resin. GW has already nerfed before FW units that were already weak units and 300% price hikes to units that weren't even appearing on top lists...That's like making tactical marines cost 49 pts per model.

Well that's the thing, isn't it?

Resin kits are much cheaper to design but more expensive to produce as they are done by hand and defects can't be recycled.
Plastic kits are much more expensive to design but mass production is very cheap...

 Ishagu wrote:
Well that's the thing, isn't it?

Resin kits are much cheaper to design but more expensive to produce as they are done by hand and defects can't be recycled.
Plastic kits are much more expensive to design but mass production is very cheap...

On the otherhand, GW showed with the design of the BSF and Cultists (etC) i remain hopefull somewhat atleast, that not all hope is lost for Traitor guard atleast.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also this, if FW would be so broken you would've seen a lot higher presence in the tournament scene, in 8th one FW model showed up in a soup list, that got nerfed into the ground and is now equally available surprisngly in a better overall version in the regular IG codex, i am talking about the MAlefic lord brimstone spam, and that was INDEX era.
which ironically had a lot other worse problems.

Well, there was the Fire Raptor, too - but, as noted, far fewer FW models this edition have caused major balance concerns compared to models from the Codex line.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also this, if FW would be so broken you would've seen a lot higher presence in the tournament scene, in 8th one FW model showed up in a soup list, that got nerfed into the ground and is now equally available surprisngly in a better overall version in the regular IG codex, i am talking about the MAlefic lord brimstone spam, and that was INDEX era.
which ironically had a lot other worse problems.

Well, there was the Fire Raptor, too - but, as noted, far fewer FW models this edition have caused major balance concerns compared to models from the Codex line.

Was that really an issue with the Fire Raptor or more it just bei g a model that could maximise the idiotic reroll your rerolls aura?
Which is still in the dang codex

 Ishagu wrote:
Do some people dislike FW because they are old fashioned and unable to grasp new concepts, or because they are jealous that they can't afford it?

There's no game related reason to do so.

i find a lot of the same players who hate everything forgworld are the same players who say knights etc. should never be allowed to have been in 40k. they fall usually into 3 catagories

1) started the game pre 5th edition and enjoyed a game with no imperial knights and where there were some forgeworld units were actually just brokenly good. These same players often think orks shoudl only have a horde of boys and that tyranids should not have monstrous creatures at all and instead be just hordes of gaunts for them to shoot

2) new players who are introduced to the game by the above type player who indoctrinates them against forgeworld and larger models.

3) Players that have heard rumors (often from the 1st type of players) and never try a game against any forgeworld models and/or they did play against somebody really good that had forgeworld models and after being beaten badly decide that it could not possible have been that the other player was better... no it must have been pay to win AKA its thier ego not allowing them to see reason.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Do some people dislike FW because they are old fashioned and unable to grasp new concepts, or because they are jealous that they can't afford it?

There's no game related reason to do so.

i find a lot of the same players who hate everything forgworld are the same players who say knights etc. should never be allowed to have been in 40k. they fall usually into 3 catagories

1) started the game pre 5th edition and enjoyed a game with no imperial knights and where there were some forgeworld units were actually just brokenly good. These same players often think orks shoudl only have a horde of boys and that tyranids should not have monstrous creatures at all and instead be just hordes of gaunts for them to shoot

2) new players who are introduced to the game by the above type player who indoctrinates them against forgeworld and larger models.

3) Players that have heard rumors (often from the 1st type of players) and never try a game against any forgeworld models and/or they did play against somebody really good that had forgeworld models and after being beaten badly decide that it could not possible have been that the other player was better... no it must have been pay to win AKA its thier ego not allowing them to see reason.

I can understand that, and there is something called Kill Team, Smaller games and narrative play for those players to enjoy. There shouldn't be impositions in matched play.

On the topic of the fire raptor - it was too powerful when 8th launched. It was dominating before most armies had a codex and I doubt i would make the same splash now. At the same time many other units from GW have caused even more problems. Are people expecting FW to NEVER cause even a slight issue? lol

Ice_can wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also this, if FW would be so broken you would've seen a lot higher presence in the tournament scene, in 8th one FW model showed up in a soup list, that got nerfed into the ground and is now equally available surprisngly in a better overall version in the regular IG codex, i am talking about the MAlefic lord brimstone spam, and that was INDEX era.
which ironically had a lot other worse problems.

Well, there was the Fire Raptor, too - but, as noted, far fewer FW models this edition have caused major balance concerns compared to models from the Codex line.

Was that really an issue with the Fire Raptor or more it just bei g a model that could maximise the idiotic reroll your rerolls aura?
Which is still in the dang codex

I mean, same as above in the malefic lord exemple, most of the stuff that made them broken was core rules, malefics for beeing cheapo smite spammers and the raptor for beeing easily maximizable with auras.