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Personally, I liked pre-ward grey knights, and I think thry have a place in the lore. I don't think they're ever deserved an entire army.

For my take, I'd cut out some of the crap, and fold them, sisters, the deathwatch and the various inquisitorial factions (and inquisitorial support elements), and hell, even th assassins into a 'watchers of the imperium' faction or 'orders militant' faction.

Deadnight wrote:
Personally, I liked pre-ward grey knights, and I think thry have a place in the lore. I don't think they're ever deserved an entire army.

For my take, I'd cut out some of the crap, and fold them, sisters, the deathwatch and the various inquisitorial factions (and inquisitorial support elements), and hell, even th assassins into a 'watchers of the imperium' faction or 'orders militant' faction.

I disagree. Grey Knights are a unique chapter and deserved to be an army at the same level as Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels. They just need an expanded mechanical role to make their game play feel less screwy. I'd argue making them a melee focused anti-Chaos mirror to the Deathwatch would do wonders for that as they would serve a different role as an interesting elite army but have a different role than the other elite Marine army. Tack on their psychic spam and it keeps them from feeling like Custodes as you could set them up to be reasonably strong psykers to give them access to Mortal wounds in exchange to not giving them mortal wounds in shooting or melee.

How are we all forgetting the Father of the Fluff, Sly Marbo?

Hunts Lictors for sport with a Pistol? Decapitated a Warboss with a knife before being discovered?

They need to be turned into anti-chaos deathwatch yes. How do?


Recost them to the same cost as veterans, give them the same statline, change their melee weapons as follows, and give them strats againgst each chaos god.


Falchion- May take an additional attack with this weapon, successful invulnerable saves must be rerolled.
Staff- +2 strength, reroll 1's for your save roll. Successful invuns must be rerolled.
Hammer- x2 strength, -1 to hit, 3dmg, -3ap, successful invuns must be rerolled.
Spear- +1 strength, 2dmg, -3ap, successful invuns must be rerolled.




STRATS:

Purge the unclean- Use this stratagem during either the shooting or fight phase. 2CP All nurgle units suffer a -1 to their disgustingly resilient roll for the rest of the phase.

Purge the Heretic- Use this stratagem during the psychic phase. 1CP All tzentch units within 24" of a Grey Knights unit in your army suffer a -1 to cast penalty on their psychic powers. This is not cumulative.

Purge the Berserk- Use this stratagem during the fight phase on one of your Grey Knights units for 1 CP. All Khorne models within 6" of the chosen unit suffer -1 to their attack characteristics until the start of their next fight phase.

Purge the Hedonistic- Use this stratagem during the movement phase. 2 CP. All slanesh models halve their movement characteristic but advance rolls are not affected.

Chaos Binding- Use this stratagem anytime a character model within 24" and in LOS attempts to summon another unit to the battlefield. 1CP They must add an additional dice to the summoning roll and discard the highest unless it is a doubles/triples with another dice, in which case you discard the next highest roll. After the roll the character that made the summon immediately suffers a perils of the warp.


Psybolt ammo- Use this stratagem at the start of the shooting phase and nominate 1-3 grey knights units. 1-3CP. All weapons that are effected by Psybolt ammo gain +1 strength and successful invulnerable saves must be rerolled. Only effects bolt weapons or any relics that replace bolt weapons.

That seems like a reasonanable approach.

I guess then the only thing left would be to make Ordo Hereticus be the anti-Imperium Imperial army and we'd have an Ordo against everyone.

To be balanced I think grey knights should abandon all rules based around fighting chaos. Let that be just fluff

Make them loyalist Thousand Sons, the elite psychic heavy Space Marine chapter.

Rules agaisnt specific factions always feel soo cheap. Just like the Imperial Guard Relic agaisnt Chaos.

 Galas wrote:
To be balanced I think grey knights should abandon all rules based around fighting chaos. Let that be just fluff

Make them loyalist Thousand Sons, the elite psychic heavy Space Marine chapter.

Rules agaisnt specific factions always feel soo cheap. Just like the Imperial Guard Relic agaisnt Chaos.

Agreed to that.

 Galas wrote:

Make them loyalist Thousand Sons, the elite psychic heavy Space Marine chapter.

Fitting since "Last Son of Prospero" implies that this is exactly what they are.

Abusing women?

Martel732 wrote:
Abusing women?

Are you talking about the retconned Bloodtide that had them kill their allied Sisters of Battle and draw protective wards on their armour to keep the daemonically possed nanonmachines from entering their armour and corrupting their bodies?

Cause casual muder is hardly abuse. If it was abuse then most of the armies in the game would be guilty of it due to killing women (and sometimes even children) in the lore.

Well, Primaris are Marines in the age of renaissance while the old Marines pertain to the dark age.
Primaris GK? Why not?.
GK with 2 wounds and +2 pts should be a progress.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Primaris are Marines in the age of renaissance while the old Marines pertain to the dark age.
Primaris GK? Why not?.
GK with 2 wounds and +2 pts should be a progress.

Lore wise ghe Grey Knights fear the xhanges to the geneseed might make them more susceptible to Chaos. Considering the fact that their successors, the Exorcists, have Primaris it could be the Grey Knights are watching them to see how everything pans out for them first.

In otherwords GW found a slick way to push back the update to a later date when they aren't focused on the main Primaris line.

The problem with the Primaris and Grey Knights is that the Primaris come from Cawl's experiments with the Prime Sanguinator (can't rememvber proper name) while the Grey knights' geneseed comes directly from the Emperor.

Since it is possible to change a normal marine into a Primaris then possibly in the future the Grey Knights will field their own version of Primaris from within their ranks without outside help

Galas wrote:To be balanced I think grey knights should abandon all rules based around fighting chaos. Let that be just fluff

Make them loyalist Thousand Sons, the elite psychic heavy Space Marine chapter.

This is exactly what I'd like to see too

Edit -- If GK were psyker heavy (with smites that worked like Thousand Sons and an expanded repertoire of psychic powers) that would give them an edge on Daemons anyhow, even without specific anti-Daemon bonuses, as mortal wounds from spells bypass their invulnerable saves. The Daemons respawn strat would definitely have to go though!

ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Abusing women?

Are you talking about the retconned Bloodtide that had them kill their allied Sisters of Battle and draw protective wards on their armour to keep the daemonically possed nanonmachines from entering their armour and corrupting their bodies?

Maybe Martel is referring to all the other population purges, Imperial Guard culls or various exterminatus events that the GK have been involved in. Maybe it was post made erroneously and it was intended for a different thread, forum or website. There's just no way to tell from a two word post that doesn't appear to specifically engage the ongoing discussion or any of the other posts in the thread.

However, if we assume that the Bloodtide incident is what is being referred to, and that Martel is referring to this as an example of GK being Mary Sues (the presumption being that this is continuing from his earlier posts rather than simply making a non-sequitur post about GK fluff), I'd suggest he give this a quick read for the sake of any future constructive criticism of the 40k lore -- because the current implication is that he views GK abusing women as wish fulfillment or that this somehow demonstrates an unrealistic lack of flaws.

Maybe Martel is referring to all the other population purges, Imperial Guard culls or various exterminatus events that the GK have been involved in.

But that is not abuse, that is perfroming their task. If you get a fungi infestation in your gosberry garden, then the whole thing has to be destroyed, all trees burned and you can't put any trees there for 10 to 15 years. It is the same thing with chaos. The life of whole regiments of IG are not important enough to risk, that one of them has seen too much, starts getting dreams and next thing you know you have another system with a chaos intrussion.

As GK desing rather then over priced specialisation, I think that something like DW have. Maybe one or two characterful stratagems or gear upgrades, and the rest being non chaos ordemon specific. It should be good to what ever design thinks chaos should be good at, so lets say hordes of infantry and big monsters. Good vs horde could be done with stormbolters, and good vs big stuff could be done with weapon stats. Lets say psycanon is D2, but when it is shoting at demons or heretic astartes is is +1D. A psilancer could be -1extra AP, if it targets the proper stuff. Incinerators could be flat 6hits when shoting or overwatching proper targets.

 Galef wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I bought my DreadKnights before Imperial Knights were released in 2007.

SJ

Lol, what? First Imperial Knight release was 2014.

No the first IKs had to be no later than 2013. I moved to TX at the tail end of 2013 and remember very distinctly some of my TN gaming group having Knights. You may be right that their Codex came out in 2014 that expanded them with the Gallant, Warden and Crusaders, but the Paladin/Errant kit was out well before that.

Also, DKs could not have been out in 2007. I started 40K in 2006 and didn't start playing Eldar (my main faction since then) in 2008. GKs were still "DaemonHunters" at this time. The GK Codex proper, including all their plastic kit updates (all GK were metal before this) didn't happen until the middle of 5th edition. I can't remember if it was just before or after the Dark Eldar got the big update to their plastic range, but it was within the same few months. So had to be 2009ish, which indeed puts them at about a decade old

I could see GK continuing to lack Primaris due to both fluff and models. Unlike Deathwatch, GK Marines aren't just a paint job.

-

GK Plastics came out in 2011. The Stormraven released In February of that year, I bought the WD because it had the rules so I could use it with my Vanillas under store house-rules. Then was Goblins and the Arakanark Spider I believe, then GK in April. Finecast dropped just 1 or 2 months later. I even have the order for Kaldor Draigo Finecast in my GW order history and I bought both White Dwarfs in that period. Also, GK was the penultimate 5th Ed Codex, with Necrons releasing in the September and 6th Ed dropping in Summer 2012.

I think one of GK’s weaknesses is it is too dedicated to fighting one army - Chaos.

Where Deathwatch is about protecting the Imerium from Xeno threats and Custodes are about protecting from internal threats, I think GK should be about combatting psychic threats - Eldar Farseerers/Spiritseers, Daemons, CSM Sorcerers, Weirdboyz, Rogue SM Librarians, Renegade IG psychers,Tau Ethereal, Tyranid Hivemind. They should have abilities that make those individuals lives difficult to use their abilities (but not impossible - a hard shutdown of the enemy would be unfun), and if they face non-psychic forces, their own psychic abilities should give them a unique edge (in line with their “elite” cost).

In short, they should be viable against all opponents, but with the ability to shift the gameplay against a heavily-psychic opponent without ruining the play experience. Not just ‘good against daemons, but not really, dur hurr hurr”.

Sisters of Silence should be the anti-psyker army (and rolled with the Custodes) while Grey Knights stay anti-Chaos. Between CSM, Daemons, Chaos Knights, Renegades and Heretics as well Daemon units mixed into other armies (Like the Avatar and I believe Mandrakes).