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cody.d. wrote:
Perhaps the issue with Spacemarines is that they are much like a comic book character. A being that the writer wants to make seem super human in every respect but at the same time they need to be challenged by their opponent to try and make a compelling story. Then throw in the grim dark aspect of 40K where any being no matter how strong, can be wiped away by the brutality of war, the uncaring mass death of planet wide combat with alien races.

This leaves you with a being who is apparently worth 100 regular troopers with high quality armour and weapons but often die by the hundreds when fighting enemies who are meant to be capable of killing all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.

Compare the fluff, where you'd be lucky to have any sort of special or heavy weapons in a squad of gaurdsmen or orks, vs the actual game where often you'll have one in every single available slot. To the point where front line troopers feel sort of weak and obsolete with their boltgun or lasgun compared to the bunch of mooks with plasma guns.

Then factor in how often in fluff and reality you wouldn't be able to fire at a space marine as he wades through a squad a few meters away from you in a trench or no mans land due to the threat of frendly fire. You are less likley to fire at a bear if it's currently in the midst of a bunch of people An actual space marine in a modern day conflict would be rather terrifying. But then again so would most of the alien races.

Welcome to 40k. SM's have ALWAYS been the badasses in 40k and have always been expressed as such by GW and their writers. I mean even in rogue trader they were pushed as the GW's no.1. There are myriad forces, someone has to be one top. The only people that have a problem with it are people that want their faction to be one top. I mean one of my favourite armies is DKK, I don't give too gaks that they aren't as powerful as marines. If people want their armies to be as powerful as marines then they should collect marines because they obviously don't appreciate their army. Look at Primaris, they are bigger and badder than CSM's and they have driven me even more into playing CSM's. I've completely fallen out of love with my SW's, I won't sell them but I haven't though about buying a new unit since this Primaris nonsense as they are no longer what my army used to be. I'm not moaning about it though, Primaris and tougher and stronger in the lore, so that's life.

The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.

Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently. A platoon of Stormtrooper dropped on a giant Ork Kill Kruizer and blew it by sabotaging it's engins before it could attack an Imperial System. It even works in Space Battle apparently :p.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.

And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are proficient at it or better than marines at that. Again stormtroopers are a joke relatively in the 40k universe. Jesus these guard players that think their army are like Sly Marbo are embarrassing.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.

And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are good at it or better than marines at that.

Well the Space Marines COULDN'T do it, so I guess that since Stormtrooper could and did it that, in this particular instence, they were better at it.

PS: They weren't stealthy enough to do it. Stealth is the essence of any surprise assault behind enemy lines.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.

And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are good at it or better than marines at that.

Well the Space Marines COULDN'T do it, so I guess that since Stormtrooper could and did it that, in this particular instence, they were better at it.

PS: They weren't stealthy enough to do it.

Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.

Maybe not better individually, but far more available. It doesn't matter if space marines are great if they're so rare that the average war will not see even a single marine while storm troopers are common enough that most regiments have a storm trooper force (or their own equivalent, like grenadiers/kasrkin/etc).

 Peregrine wrote:
Maybe not better individually, but far more available. It doesn't matter if space marines are great if they're so rare that the average war will not see even a single marine while storm troopers are common enough that most regiments have a storm trooper force (or their own equivalent, like grenadiers/kasrkin/etc).

That's not the point though. The other two are trying to suggest that stormtroopers can fill in for and do SM's jobs, which is ridiculous.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.

Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.

You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.

PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.

Perhaps it depends on the battlefield? In the extreme weather patterns of the 40K universe, and the ulta-sophisticated shielding, stealth tech and such.

There would be many things only a space marine could do at short notice, using whatever they have in their set of standard equipment to "make it work." Maybe that's why in the fluff often the space marines are used as a last resort, like a swat team called in by police at an existing situation to go in and resolve a difficult issue.

Where as guard would lob explosives and humans at a problem in the hope it goes away a few squads of marines are meant to take out the crucial supports that keep the problem from collapsing under the guard.

Also, using flesh tearers as an example for anything may not be the best. They're a few chainaxes away from being Khornate Berserkers. Not the rounded force that other chapters should resemble.

cody.d. wrote:
They're a few chainaxes away from being Khornate Berserkers. Not the rounded force that other chapters should resemble.

I agree with you on that. The only problem is that many Space Marine Chapters seem to be specialised and thus do not respond to the axiom that Space Marines are a flexible, fast deployment ultra-elite force. Now, with Primaris Marines, the idea that some elite human forces could be better then Space Marines in certain scenario is now impossible.

I suppose it is part of their design, and the imperium's in general that everything is a pale shadow of what it used to be. The current chapters are a joke compared to the Legions of old.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.

Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.

You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.

PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.

Sure.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.

Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.

You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.

PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.

Sure.

He is correct.

In 998 M41, when a planet was taken over and being defended by SM renegades, both the Flesh Tearers and Militarum Tempestus forces arrived.

The Flesh Tearers attempted drop pod assault and flying stormravens and thunderhawks into the atmosphere, but were destroyed or annihilated by Firestorm Nexuses.

The Tempestor Prime of the Third Alphic Jackals, Vigilian, has his Scions cram into void-capable Valkyries, which dumped them from orbit with nothing more than an anti-thermal blanket equivalent and their armor. The renegades’ scanners mistook the Scions for orbital debris, ensuring a safe-from-being-blown-to-bits landing.

When into the atmosphere, the shrouds were removed, and the Scions grav-chuted quietly into position. They quickly captured the Firestorm Nexuses, and held them against the rebel army working with the renegades.

The Flesh Tearers are finally able to arrive, and traitorous leaders are cut off from escape by the Tempestus Scions in person, or their ships were shot down with the remaining Firestorm Nexuses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are plenty of other cases in which Scions have worked hand in hand with SMs within the old codex.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.

Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe.

I mean, only if we're talking extreme close combat engagements against certain types of foes, you don't need to be a genetically engineered super soldier to infiltrate enemy lines and plant explosives or to fight many of the foes the Imperium faces, as proved by the fact that Stormtroopers and the Imperial Guard have vast litanies of victories all their own without any Space Marines at all.

Lets not forget that being 8ft tall, sporting bright primary colors, and weighing as much as a car has some issues when it comes to...well, most military operations

Likewise, many things that would find Stormtroopers no better than a cold butter knife won't find Space Marines to be much scarier. A Knight, Titan, Carnifex, Wraithlord, Tomb Stalker, Deffdred, Greater Daemon, heavy artillery shell, etc ad nauseum really doesn't see much difference.

What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes?

Then you're probably hosed anyway because when it comes to real warfare (and most 40k lore) those sorts of weapons are what generates the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties. Few foes have artillery to match that of mundane human Imperial forces however.

Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.

Except that in most instances there are no Ghostbusters, and the Stormtroopers end up having to take care of it because the Space Marines are so rare as to be nonexistent in most conflicts

The big issue with Space Marines is their numbers. GW doesn't really get galactic scales, and this leaves Space Marines so rare as to be mythical, not readily available resources in most campaigns.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.

Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.

You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.

PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.

Sure.

He is correct.

In 998 M41, when a planet was taken over and being defended by SM renegades, both the Flesh Tearers and Militarum Tempestus forces arrived.

The Flesh Tearers attempted drop pod assault and flying stormravens and thunderhawks into the atmosphere, but were destroyed or annihilated by Firestorm Nexuses.

The Tempestor Prime of the Third Alphic Jackals, Vigilian, has his Scions cram into void-capable Valkyries, which dumped them from orbit with nothing more than an anti-thermal blanket equivalent and their armor. The renegades’ scanners mistook the Scions for orbital debris, ensuring a safe-from-being-blown-to-bits landing.

When into the atmosphere, the shrouds were removed, and the Scions grav-chuted quietly into position. They quickly captured the Firestorm Nexuses, and held them against the rebel army working with the renegades.

The Flesh Tearers are finally able to arrive, and traitorous leaders are cut off from escape by the Tempestus Scions in person, or their ships were shot down with the remaining Firestorm Nexuses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are plenty of other cases in which Scions have worked hand in hand with SMs within the old codex.

I have no problem with the fact that scions work with them, but everyone here is ignoring the fact that they are saying that scions are as capable as SM's, which is patently REMOVED - BROOKM and how you;s are ignoring that point baffles me.

DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER

The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.

They can do quite similar jobs. Space Marines are a scalpel of deadly force. Scions are a thrusting dagger, but the very tip of the blade could be used in a similar fashion, with a little work.

Take, for instance, the scenario in which the 196th Omnicroid Hydras were sent to intercept the ork supakrooza, the “Brawla.”

The darned scrapheap was going to ram into Macharia if not stopped. The Scions used a sleek drop craft to land on the hull, where Taurox Primes (which have magnetic treads, in case you didn’t know) drove over to the engines. The Hydras deployed aboard, magboots allowing them to not fly off into the void, so they could set a line of melta charges. Thirty heavy-armored orks in some kind of exo-armor run across the deck. The Scions took tactical positions, many of them crouching to lower their profile, when the ship’s hull flashed. The Scions has been maglocked to the hull. Plasma teams opened fire, but exploded to a man. It was a tough fight, and many Scions were lost, even with Taurox Primes providing main cannon fire support. They called their drop craft over to help, and it did some laserwork on the ship, causing the electromagnetic field to dissipate, which made the rest of the orks float into the void.

The last of the Scions set the charges and evacuate. The ship is destroyed and Macharia is noted to report something akin to a firework show.

Some fluff space marines could probably have fared better, but Scions can still get the job done.

Dandelion wrote:
The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.

No. The story is only remotely plausible with millions of marines per chapter. 1K marines dead is a bad afternoon vs a few Stormsurges. Or a single WMD. Even a billion total marines is stupid low for a galactic conflict. Galaxies are ENORMOUS.

The hacks who made this stuff up in the early days were NOT sci-fi authors and it shows.

Dandelion wrote:
The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.

Chapters are specifically 1000 so that they can't go around conquering planets on their own anymore.

Chapters don't have large motor pools because that is not how they generally fight. They keep them for special circumstances, but their primary method of fighting is insertion via drop pod or thunder hawk, targeting critical areas of the enemy's formations, then quick retrieval before the enemy can mobilize against them. They will use armor and mobile transports when the situation means drop pods and thunder hawks aren't practical or available, but the vehicles ALSO have to be deployed via thunderhawk, so there's limitations.

Of course, war doesn't always go as planned and sometimes marines end up in protracted war. This usually sees them ground down rather quickly. A missile doesn't care if you're 1000 years old with super human reflexes, it just blows you up.

 argonak wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.

Chapters are specifically 1000 so that they can't go around conquering planets on their own anymore.

Chapters don't have large motor pools because that is not how they generally fight. They keep them for special circumstances, but their primary method of fighting is insertion via drop pod or thunder hawk, targeting critical areas of the enemy's formations, then quick retrieval before the enemy can mobilize against them. They will use armor and mobile transports when the situation means drop pods and thunder hawks aren't practical or available, but the vehicles ALSO have to be deployed via thunderhawk, so there's limitations.

Of course, war doesn't always go as planned and sometimes marines end up in protracted war. This usually sees them ground down rather quickly. A missile doesn't care if you're 1000 years old with super human reflexes, it just blows you up.

I guess my issue is that marines are said to able to conquer planets using only 100 marines, despite the fact that they'd run out of bullets/bolts first. Granted, GW also said that it only takes 20 cadres (2000-4000 Tau) to conquer a hive planet. (I heard this over on ATT since someone was complaining about how stupid it was, it might have been a Phil Kelly book) So maybe planets just suck at defending themselves? Or GW writers don't like numbers over a thousand.

I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.

1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.

To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.

That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.

But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.

1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.

To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.

That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.

But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.

Yeah until the dumb peasants started beeing mean and using formations.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.

1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.

To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.

That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.

But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.

100 in an army of 30,000 is .3%.

1,000,000 in army of trillions is significantly less.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.

1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.

To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.

I'm going to disagree. There will always be as many marines as the story requires, so it doesn't matter if there are 1000 chapters of 1000 marines or a million chapters of a million marines. The background gives us low numbers but high mobility and autonomy. This means they can show up where needed, regardless of distance or jurisdiction. I'll admit this starts to wear thin when applied to an individual chapter like the Ultramarines who are apparently in every conflict everywhere, but that is just illustrative.

As marines are 'rare', it falls to other armies to take up the slack- the PDF to absorb and contain the initial attack of a foe, the guard to prosecute the war and the stormtroopers to make surgical strikes. The Imperium has an entire war machine outside of marines for the times when they are not there (as the narrative demands).

Functionally, marines save the lives of imperial soldiers by doing the jobs they would otherwise have to do- and perhaps could accomplish with heavy heavy losses. They also tank damage that would cripple normal soldiers, allowing for fewer space marine losses. They have the stamina to continue fighting when normal troops would need a rest break, recuperation etc, keeping the pressure on the enemy and accelerating the pace of conflict.

They in effect hand wave a lot of the non combat considerations of war- supply lines, morale, loyalty, infection, casualties, careful maneuver etc by turning up in space craft loaded with supplies, dropping directly onto the heads of their enemies and pulling triggers until all the enemy have exploded. This is great for players and stories unconcerned with the human element of war who just want to get to the ultraviolence.

Other forces can do all the combat things marines do, just with more forethought and consequence. Space marines don't do anything unique- they just do it better and in a more gratuitous fashion than other groups. And ultimately, that's what 40k is all about.

I think everyone is looking at Marines all wrong. Marines are not primarily a planetary force. They are a naval force with a very specialised type of artillery that can circumnavigate void shields and equivalents. The clue is even in the name- Space Marines. They are all about the void-to-planet interface.

Look at a typical Chapter fleet- they can even rival a Sector Navy fleet in power (especially in Battleship-class hulls), and have far more autonomy. Marines win most of their combat with ships, possibly without even needing to shoot in many cases- the mere threat of a strike cruiser in orbit is going to cause many rebels to surrender (similar to the Navy).

The Imperial Guard has good artillery, but it doesn't have lance strikes and bombardment cannons- it has to ask the Navy nicely for equivalent firepower. Marines have this by default, and make full use of this. The Marines themselves are essentially an additional form of reuseable artillery that is used to knock out targets resistant to orbital bombardment (like shielded government headquarters). The superhuman nature of Marines mean they will have an enormous sortie rate- as soon as one target is down, they are extracting and preparing for the next.

Marines are rare, sure, but so are important Imperial planets. There are ~1 million Imperial worlds (so a Marine per world), but only about 30000 of those are Hive worlds. The numbers of Forge and Fortress worlds are likely even lower. These are the only types of Imperial planet likely to have sufficient defenses to cause a strike cruiser or drop pod assault trouble, so the vast majority of Imperial worlds essentially have no real ability to counter a Marine force without a significant traitor naval force.

The numbers of Marines compared to the Guard are negligible, but the number of Marine combat vessels compared to the Navy is (whilst hard to quantify) almost certainly a much more favourable ratio (especially in terms of capital ships, which are the relevant vessels here for planetary assaults and fleet actions). Marines also hold some of the most powerful vessels in the Imperial arsenal. The Imperial Guard is irrelevant anyway without the Imperial Navy, as they cannot be moved to threatened worlds. Most of the local work is done by the Planetary Defense Forces.

They're also visible in their actions.

They don't really do subtlety. Not when it's time for the axe to fall. They're messy. And deliberately so. Hence the general lack of camoflague, and the preference for Bolter and Chainsword. Both are ultimately overkill against most infantry - but then, that is the whole point.

Tie that into their common perception within The Imperium. They're bogeymen, with evidence, used to make people think very, very hard before launching into civil war or otherwise misbehaving.

Some excellent points i'd like to explore:

 Haighus wrote:
I think everyone is looking at Marines all wrong. Marines are not primarily a planetary force. They are a naval force with a very specialised type of artillery that can circumnavigate void shields and equivalents. The clue is even in the name- Space Marines. They are all about the void-to-planet interface.

Look at a typical Chapter fleet- they can even rival a Sector Navy fleet in power (especially in Battleship-class hulls), and have far more autonomy. Marines win most of their combat with ships, possibly without even needing to shoot in many cases- the mere threat of a strike cruiser in orbit is going to cause many rebels to surrender (similar to the Navy).

The Imperial Guard has good artillery, but it doesn't have lance strikes and bombardment cannons- it has to ask the Navy nicely for equivalent firepower. Marines have this by default, and make full use of this.

This is important, as is the class structure of the Imperium to understanding why Marines are given this kind of free reign. Marines are viewed as angels, lords and knights by common imperial soldiery.

The Marines themselves are essentially an additional form of reuseable artillery that is used to knock out targets resistant to orbital bombardment (like shielded government headquarters). The superhuman nature of Marines mean they will have an enormous sortie rate- as soon as one target is down, they are extracting and preparing for the next.

Artillery that can hold ground or retrieve assets in a pinch but yes.

Marines are rare, sure, but so are important Imperial planets. There are ~1 million Imperial worlds (so a Marine per world), but only about 30000 of those are Hive worlds. The numbers of Forge and Fortress worlds are likely even lower. These are the only types of Imperial planet likely to have sufficient defenses to cause a strike cruiser or drop pod assault trouble, so the vast majority of Imperial worlds essentially have no real ability to counter a Marine force without a significant traitor naval force.

1 million worlds (roughly) and 1 million marines (roughly)

If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.

The numbers of Marines compared to the Guard are negligible, but the number of Marine combat vessels compared to the Navy is (whilst hard to quantify) almost certainly a much more favourable ratio (especially in terms of capital ships, which are the relevant vessels here for planetary assaults and fleet actions). Marines also hold some of the most powerful vessels in the Imperial arsenal. The Imperial Guard is irrelevant anyway without the Imperial Navy, as they cannot be moved to threatened worlds. Most of the local work is done by the Planetary Defense Forces.

Naval support is a critical part of Astartes action. Serious enemy fleets will require a lot of naval support but a strike cruiser and her escorts can handle a fleet of escorts and a cruiser. Marines are also much better suited to capturing an enemy ship intact than the alternative (flood it with armed imperial crewmen and hope they don't break everything )

Or indeed, imploding it's Warp Drive, or detonating it's Plasma Reactor. That's a fast, efficient way to deal with an enemy Capital Ship. Boarding Torpedo to the right section. Disgorge a demi-squad or two, let them absolutely tear through the enemy defenders. Bunch of strategic meltas, everyone back to the Torpedo, and trigger. Boom.

Job's a good'un.

And if you knock their shields down, just teleport some Terminator to their bridge. That's a fatal encounter right there!