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 Formosa wrote:
Eldar divination is not perfect, far from it, it can also be interfered with or outright blocked if chaos gets involved

Don't even need Chaos for that.

The idea of a.. Skein I believe Thorpe called it? Is that a lot of things including Eldar themselves interfere with it. For example, when a Phoenix Lord acts, it is like a fiery thread through whole future which grabs all other threads with it and pushes into direction of that person's future, making it very hard to predict or change the future.

To be honest, most of the standard Eldar plots (which Path of the Warrior also follows) are about some prophecy which is read incorrectly and screws everyone, but at last moment Farseer gets the Sudden Realization TM and fixes their own screw ups.

But I think I digress. Maybe we can talk about how many Avatars of Khaine you need to kill a space marine or something.

 Melissia wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.

Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine

A bit slower perhaps, but certainly far stronger physically. A basic Ork Boy is just as physically durable as a Space Marine outside of armor, and even your "basic" Nob is far, FAR more durable than that. The main advantage that the Marines would have over a Nob is discipline and training, and of course equipment quality.

I will accept that "nob" is a very vague concept in Orky Kultur. It's just the guy in charge of a mob of boyz. But generally for an Ork, being in charge also makes you large, and being large also makes you in charge. An Ork that is "bigga" literally becomes bigger; the Nobz of the Orks are a cut above the rest by definition, and "bigga is betta" is a self-fulfilling prophecy for Orks.

Many people confuses the fact that one can be easely killed with being "weak". A human is a human and we have examples of soldiers of old fighting in dozens of battles and killing tons of enemies. And with a single, good pointed spear thrust or sword slash, they would have been dead. But the point is that they where skilled enough to not have that happened to them.

The same happens with marines. Barring the diferences, because marines can sustain a TON of damage, is absolutely coherent for a space marine to be killed by an ork boy if for example he is overwhelmed by them and one just rips is head off, bud still be much more "powerfull" and skilled that those boyzs, even the one that killed him.

A character in the heresy series is killed by a spear, paraphrasing the quote but

"Blah blah was is dead"

"How"

"By some mortal with a spear, tore his throat right out, I would have laughed if it wasn't so pathetic"

All marines are weak to spears.

Martel732 wrote:
Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar?

Because Eldar massacre colonists that mistakenly arrive on maiden worlds. Or because Eldar forsee some catastrophe that can only be averted by attacking the IoM. Or Eldar deflect Ork Waaaaghs away from their territory and towards IoM worlds, wreaking havoc.

And because the IoM is xenocidal.

Killing xenos is its own reward.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"

Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines

you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.

As bad as the Tyranids? Didn't think so. It's called target priority and the IoM doesn't have any. Because everyone in 40K is an idiot by necessity for their plots.

At a minimum, send your mooks against the race with guns that treat everything like a gretchin.

That's not how you prioritize your use of limited assists.

Firstly let's get out of the way the idea that the IoM wastes time and energy fighting foes they don't need to fight. the IoM was quite willing to call an armistance with the Tau to fight the Tyranid threat.
However generally speaking resources are going to be theatre based. if the Ultramarines are on the eastren fringe, they're going to focus on dealing with issues in that part of the galaxy, that means dealing with a craft world causing trouble there before racing off to fight tyranids on the clear other side of the galaxy when, due to the vaguarities of warp travel etc.and communication speed. there is no garentee they'll show up on time.
Moving along, the eldar have a long history of being willing to see entire worlds of humans burn, if it means saving eldar lives. And are happy to use Catpaws to do so. If a craftworld has manipulated the l;ast 3 ork attacks on a sector, why wouldn't the IoM deal with the problem at it's source rather then the symptom?

 Melissia wrote:
Killing xenos is its own reward.

It sure is.

Space Marine 2011 was too traditional a game in that it had one guy, Captain Titus running through a gauntlet of orks and a chaos warband with barely any help. I don't think it represents an Adeptus Astartes capabilities too well.

A Space Marines advantages lies in his training, his equipment, and his tactics. The enhanced physiology is impressive, but the way I see it, it's simply a platform to build off of. The Astartes is not just the physiology, its the whole package.
The Space Marines are capable of being a quick response force, because their organization is entirely autonomous. Aside from a few supply chains they can't do without in the long term, such as power armor, ships, and geneseed, a Chapter can operate for an indeterminate amount of time on their own, making them the ideal solution when it comes to plugging a gap in manpower throughout the entire Imperium.
The Space Marines are masters of war. Since the Legions operated under a command system and doctrine suitable for a legion of Astartes, the reformation into Chapters changed up everything about the Loyalist Chapters. Instead of mass recruiting, Chapters can now choose the best candidates without too much pressure to reach large number quotas. Since the Heresy, it's likely the equipment and standards of production have also improved, which should give a Space Marine a leg up over any other enemies largely considered their equals. Finally, the Legions were made for one purpose, conquest. A Space Marine Chapter has another purpose. Ensure survival of the Imperium of Man, and within that one duty, it has to be able to perform every role imaginable when it comes to warfare. They have been doing it for 10,000 years. As such, I imagine their strategies, tactics, and combat doctrines are extremely flexible and superior to most of the enemies they come across.

That being said, I agree with a lot of people who say that many of the reading material for Warhammer 40,000 don't seem to reflect the capabilities of the Space Marines properly. I don't think Space Marines would die as often as portrayed in stories. I imagine most Chapters have over 1000 Astartes within their ranks, and I imagine there are a lot more than 1000 chapters throughout the galaxy.

I think you are missing a key component about the power of space marines. Because they are such potent warriors. Having too many of them invites the risk of a second heresy. Which is why legions were reduced and limited in number. The imperium certainly has the ability to produce more space marines...they have a million planets and basically unlimited resources. The thing is - their most expendable resource (manpower) is also pretty capable. They only need 1000 chapters to keep the imperium in line because they just have so many freaking defended planets. They can afford to lose a sector and retake it in a few decades. Plus they expand a lot too still. If you read the fluff about the imperium - it really can't afford to get any bigger. It is so large most of it it out of communication with itself. To get even bigger would basically ensure a split and force civil war (it probably still is inevitable). Another key factor is how much of the imperium is not assessable to xenos and chaos. There might be more than 1000 hot zones of conflict but they aren't all going off at all times. What ensues is a somewhat convenient struggle for survival that keeps citizens indoctrinated to the emperor.

On the Space Marine game. Obviously it was set up to be a 3rd person shotem up game which deliberately stated in the beginning this isn't how the codex would have stated the invasion should have been dealt with. However. Even a rigid follower of the codex (an Ultramarine) can be forced to go above and beyond the call of duty and still expect success. I love the game so I am extremely biased. I think it is a great example of what a marine hero is. Stoic in their duty they will fight no matter the odds to achieve the emperors will and expect to win with their skill.

The game had you in place of a battle-hardened captain, not your "Average" Space Marine, but a hero amongst heroes. Obviously it was in part a power fantasy, but what about Space Marines isn't?

 Melissia wrote:
The game had you in place of a battle-hardened captain, not your "Average" Space Marine, but a hero amongst heroes. Obviously it was in part a power fantasy, but what about Space Marines isn't?

In that game, you play a Space Marine and you easily kill about 20-30 Chaos Space Marines without much trouble (and you kill a demon prince bear handed).

You don't play as merely "a space marine".

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you are missing a key component about the power of space marines. Because they are such potent warriors. Having too many of them invites the risk of a second heresy. Which is why legions were reduced and limited in number.

I understand that. But the galaxy is full of secrets. Chapters that are no longer remembered, MIA, or simply forgotten would not the most unheard about thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the game so I am extremely biased. I think it is a great example of what a marine hero is. Stoic in their duty they will fight no matter the odds to achieve the emperors will and expect to win with their skill.

I love the game too.

 Melissia wrote:
You don't play as merely "a space marine".

you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You don't play as merely "a space marine".

you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.

Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You don't play as merely "a space marine".

you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.

Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?

The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.

Right, you're not killing 20-30 CSMs all at once.

Cannot think of a time where a single lone captain has taken on 30+ marines and won by charging at them, but then this game does not do that either, at most you get 2/3 in an area you have to deal with and the fluff is full of moments like that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You don't play as merely "a space marine".

you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.

Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?

The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.

the story isn't canon eaither last I checked. unless they retcon Titus to be Cato's predecessor

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You don't play as merely "a space marine".

you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.

Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?

The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.

the story isn't canon eaither last I checked. unless they retcon Titus to be Cato's predecessor

Didnt the devs say it was an alternative universe to 40k so they could play with it a bit more?

I like the alternate universe explanation for everything.

Martel732 wrote:
I like the alternate universe explanation for everything.

Like treating the tabletop as alternate too - basically, all the different forms of media are alternate - Dawn of War, Space Marine, tabletop, etc etc.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I like the alternate universe explanation for everything.

Like treating the tabletop as alternate too - basically, all the different forms of media are alternate - Dawn of War, Space Marine, tabletop, etc etc.

Yeah sod it, I can get behind that

Great. I'm stuck in the universe of suck. I still think the tabletop take the "toning down" WAY to far. Because there's stuff fluff in the codices that doesn't jive.

Martel732 wrote:
Great. I'm stuck in the universe of suck. I still think the tabletop take the "toning down" WAY to far. Because there's stuff fluff in the codices that doesn't jive.

in the fluff Salamanders still have battle automata and pyroclasts.... its worse than you think

No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.

Thats because in the TT alternate universe plasma can be built with particle generator thingies and all physics are on a 1-10 scale with the only exception being weapons with a setting of 11+

Dakka has created a new meme and I am running with it

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.

There's no solution for Plasma being evrywhere. I know I've expounded on this before, but the problem is space marines in table top are popular, they're the most popular army by far, and thus TAC lists assume a 3+ 4T defensive profile for basic troops. I've noted BTW this is the biggest area of differance between table top and marines. In table top everyone is kitted to kill Marines, just the way it is, they're not delibeteratly list tailoring but they're going to be geared to take on a space marine army. Meanwhile in universe Marines are rare rare rare rare. your average army fighting the IoM is going to kit to kill guard. not marines. which means Marines have a lot less anti-marine ordinance to owrry about

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.

There's no solution for Plasma being evrywhere. I know I've expounded on this before, but the problem is space marines in table top are popular, they're the most popular army by far, and thus TAC lists assume a 3+ 4T defensive profile for basic troops. I've noted BTW this is the biggest area of differance between table top and marines. In table top everyone is kitted to kill Marines, just the way it is, they're not delibeteratly list tailoring but they're going to be geared to take on a space marine army. Meanwhile in universe Marines are rare rare rare rare. your average army fighting the IoM is going to kit to kill guard. not marines. which means Marines have a lot less anti-marine ordinance to owrry about

You don't even need plasma. Heavy bolters remove marines far faster than they do guardsmen. Per point. Dissy cannons and plasma scions are just an extra kick in the balls. I don't see as much plasma because i'm in a group with lots of hit penalties, but my army is still bad. I just don't know how GW can read their own fluff and then write the power armor codices. They're a total liability.

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolters remove marines far faster than they do guardsmen. Per point.

You exaggerate again; the truth depends on variables like cover and WHO is firing. A heavy bolter fired by a space marine at guardsmen will remove around 4.5 points of guardsmen per turn, or effectively 4, while a heavy bolter fired by a guardsman at space marines will remove around 4.8 points of marines per turn (meaning, about one per three turns). The difference is pretty negligible-- If said guardsman survives to fire a heavy bolter for a full three turns on a Space Marine who is just standing around outside of cover, they'll manage to kill on average one space marine over those three turns, while the Space Marine with a heavy bolter is pretty much guaranteed a kill per turn. In cover, the Marines have the advantage; the guardsman will need four turns on average to kill a marine in cover, the marine will still kill roughly one guardsman per turn. And so on.

Heavy bolters are still really kinda bad at anti-infantry work, regardless of if it's heavy or light infantry.

The difference between the two in terms of plasma is much more stark and meaningful, and thus why people take plasma for their squads far more often than heavy bolters (on vehicles, of course, heavy bolters are a dime a dozen, but that's another story).