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 Insectum7 wrote:
Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations, and then say "Bring your world within conformity of the Imperial fold, or be annihilated."

And then the orbital defenses say "lol, that's cute" and blow the marine ship out of space. After all, let's not forget that we're talking about a major target here with the associated level of defenses. Otherwise space marines are redundant and you can send more common forces.

And if the wavering PDF decides that they're going to fight, the Space Marines have orbital supremacy, and therefore aerial supremacy, and therefore can dictate the terms of any conventional battle outside of dense terrain.

They really can't. They can opt out of any battle they don't like but they can't force the enemy to deploy in a way that is vulnerable to attack. If the enemy simply says "bring it on, we have 10 million defenders in this city" any attack is suicide. And sure, they could bomb the enemy from orbit but the premise here is that the planet is too vital to allow significant use of WMDs (otherwise just send in the Imperial Navy to deal with the problem).

then the Space Marines track communications traffic, find out where any command centers might be

This is easier said than done, unless the enemy is completely incompetent at communications security. Enemy HQs don't have a giant "shoot here" sign on them, and any competent enemy would know how easy it would be to create fake traffic that suggests a trap target is an important HQ. Space marines drop in, nuke goes off, the Imperium has just lost a non-trivial percentage of their entire supply of space marines.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations.

That's the problem with your theory. To be plausible this step is absolutely critical. Any world that represent a major strategical asset that capturing it mostly intact is an absolute priority will have several key installation each of them defended well beyind the capacity of a 100 Space Marine to take even via a drop pod assault as these assault can only be conducted after dedicated anti-air defenses have been crippled. Beside some backwater colony or decaying world a planet will not be submit to a small group of Space Marines.

Marines have the equipment to bypass those defenses with Drop Pods or Boarding Torpedoes. But you don't have to take my word for it:

Spoiler:

It's what they do.

And sometime they can't as shown in the story about the Flesh Tearer being incapable of neutralising an anti-air defense network and needing Scions help to crack it open. Preventing drop pod assaults is one of the things that anti-air defense are built for. As your own piece of fluff mentions, Space Marines can risk drop pod assaults only when the anti-air defense of a planet are either friendly or weak.

That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.

Do they? From my memory, anti-air defense is simply never mentionned neither are radar detection or anything like that. It seems that Drop Pods don't bypass anti-air defense as much as there is no anti-air defense at all despite the sheer stupidity of that fact, there is extensive use of aerial and space combat in the 40K univers, thus anti-air defense should be capital to any army of fortress.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations, and then say "Bring your world within conformity of the Imperial fold, or be annihilated."

And then the orbital defenses say "lol, that's cute" and blow the marine ship out of space. After all, let's not forget that we're talking about a major target here with the associated level of defenses. Otherwise space marines are redundant and you can send more common forces.

Apparently not, because that's not what the lore says. You're going to have to reconcile that yourself. Simply saying "that's not how it goes down, man!" Is pretty meaningless in the face of the reported Marine MO.

Sure, some systems will be more heavily defended and those will be harder to crack. But what's described is standard operating procedure, so that's what happens most of the time.

And if the wavering PDF decides that they're going to fight, the Space Marines have orbital supremacy, and therefore aerial supremacy, and therefore can dictate the terms of any conventional battle outside of dense terrain.

They really can't. They can opt out of any battle they don't like but they can't force the enemy to deploy in a way that is vulnerable to attack. If the enemy simply says "bring it on, we have 10 million defenders in this city" any attack is suicide. And sure, they could bomb the enemy from orbit but the premise here is that the planet is too vital to allow significant use of WMDs (otherwise just send in the Imperial Navy to deal with the problem).

You say they can't, but the lore suggests otherwise again. Planets are big, cities are small. If the PDF wants to concentrate in one place, the Marines can bombard them without much harm to anything else on the world, then have free reign over the rest of the planet. The situation will be contextual, so it's going to depend on what the value of the world is.

then the Space Marines track communications traffic, find out where any command centers might be

This is easier said than done, unless the enemy is completely incompetent at communications security. Enemy HQs don't have a giant "shoot here" sign on them, and any competent enemy would know how easy it would be to create fake traffic that suggests a trap target is an important HQ. Space marines drop in, nuke goes off, the Imperium has just lost a non-trivial percentage of their entire supply of space marines.

Maybe "easier said than done" for you. We don't know the sort of intelligence gathering a Strike Cruiser is capable of. It might be pretty straight forward for the Marines to just observe a planet for a few days and figure out where everything is.

Don't forget they also are regularly equipped with psychics, either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.

Do they? From my memory, anti-air defense is simply never mentionned neither are radar detection or anything like that. It seems that Drop Pods don't bypass anti-air defense as much as there is no anti-air defense at all despite the sheer stupidity of that fact, there is extensive use of aerial and space combat in the 40K univers, thus anti-air defense should be capital to any army of fortress.

That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses. Maybe they add some extra tech to help that as well.

Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.

We have seen examples of marines have ECM and ECCM built into power armour, admittedly that was alpha legion but do we just ignore this tech exists and could possibly be used for drop pods, dunno just spit balling here.

 Insectum7 wrote:

That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses.

What's the point of anti-air defense if it can hit something like that? Plus, Drop Pod can't be that fast since they need to decelarate to make a landing. If they were faster then supersonic jets (which are the things anti-air in 40K is supposed to take out) the cargo of Space Marines would be reduce into juice by the impact.

Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.

Which is yet ANOTHER thing about Space Marines that doesn't make sense.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses.

What's the point of anti-air defense if it can hit something like that? Plus, Drop Pod can't be that fast since they need to decelarate to make a landing. If they were faster then supersonic jets (which are the things anti-air in 40K is supposed to take out) the cargo of Space Marines would be reduce into juice by the impact.

I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.

Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.

Which is yet ANOTHER thing about Space Marines that doesn't make sense.

What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
We have seen examples of marines have ECM and ECCM built into power armour, admittedly that was alpha legion but do we just ignore this tech exists and could possibly be used for drop pods, dunno just spit balling here.

I can only imagine there's something to that.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.

Several problem there too. A quick decelaration for hypersonic speed to let say about a two hundred kilometers per hour would kill the payload too for the same reason then crashing at hypersonic speed would. Plus, I don't see why Drop Pods would have fancy tech that completely neuters anti-air defense but fighters, bombers and other vehicle of the sort couldn't have. Also consider that most anti-air tech is laser, a cheap and extremely common type of tech. It hits at the speed of light. No matter how fast Drop Pod travels, they can be destroyed easily by lascannon fire. You just need a battery of lascannon to blanket an area of the sky and destroy a large portion of the Drop Pod attempting to land. Let's also remember that anti-air defense inthe Imperium was certainly designed to destroy Drop Pod assault since the Horus Heresy made it necessary (without counting the fact that Tyranids also use an identical tactic once in a while and orks have something akin to it with Rocks, but larger scale).

What?

This thread has basically pointed out several glaring problems with Space Marines as a faction in 40K. They are barely above average when compared to other faction troops, and especially when compared to their elite. They are ridiculously few in numbers. Their most iconic strategy works pretty much only on weaken, distracted or incompetant enemies. They can't recover from casualtie quickly enough to survive murderous attrition rates. Creating new Space Marines is complicated. Geneseed is rare and fragile. Many assets of the Space Marines are nearly impossible to rebuild like Dreadnaught, Land Raiders, Terminator armors, etc.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.

Several problem there too. A quick decelaration for hypersonic speed to let say about a two hundred kilometers per hour would kill the payload too for the same reason then crashing at hypersonic speed would. Plus, I don't see why Drop Pods would have fancy tech that completely neuters anti-air defense but fighters, bombers and other vehicle of the sort couldn't have. Also consider that most anti-air tech is laser, a cheap and extremely common type of tech. It hits at the speed of light. No matter how fast Drop Pod travels, they can be destroyed easily by lascannon fire. You just need a battery of lascannon to blanket an area of the sky and destroy a large portion of the Drop Pod attempting to land. Let's also remember that anti-air defense inthe Imperium was certainly designed to destroy Drop Pod assault since the Horus Heresy made it necessary (without counting the fact that Tyranids also use an identical tactic once in a while and orks have something akin to it with Rocks, but larger scale).

That's all well and good, except Drop Pods still work. Therefore they work. Maybe they invoke some sort of electronics scrambling that interferes with targeters. Maybe lasers have to charge up and pods come in too quick. Maybe Librarians cast a spell on them. Maybe they dump loads of chaff and decoys and take their chances. Maybe taking the orbital platforms allows the Marines to hack their systems and shut down defenses. Maybe Marines drop weaponized Pods that draw fire and then coordinate counter-battery fire from the Strike Cruiser. Maybe they can drop in at a lower speed in a difficult to detect stealth mode. Maybe Marines have any number of ways to help ensure those Pods get through. The lore says they work most of the time, therefore use your imagination to come up with a scenario that puts your troubled mind at ease. They work.

What?

This thread has basically pointed out several glaring problems with Space Marines as a faction in 40K. They are barely above average when compared to other faction troops, and especially when compared to their elite. They are ridiculously few in numbers. Their most iconic strategy works pretty much only on weaken, distracted or incompetant enemies. They can't recover from casualtie quickly enough to survive murderous attrition rates. Creating new Space Marines is complicated. Geneseed is rare and fragile. Many assets of the Space Marines are nearly impossible to rebuild like Dreadnaught, Land Raiders, Terminator armors, etc.

Then you're not trying to reason it out hard enough. Your letting yourself be stopped by "real-world-think", which even then is probably faulty.

Example: Do Navy Seals matter? Even though they can't take on an army of 1000000? They're obviously "ridiculosly few in numbers", their "most iconic strategy pretty much only works on weakened, distracted enemies" etc. I mean, those rafts can be spotted a mile away, and their armor is paper thin! . . .Or . . . maybe they have ways of being where they need to be, and doing what they have to do.


And don't forget. . . Space Wizards, yo.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The lore says they work most of the time, therefore use your imagination to come up with a scenario that puts your troubled mind at ease. They work.

I'd rather scrap this drivel (AKA consider it as legends and propaganda internal to the setting) and develop lore that actually make some sense (Space Marines are an incresingly useless relic from the past mostly used for gunboat diplomacy and occasionaly supplement other forces). Space Marines are incredibly popular and easily have the most trashy lore of the already fairly weak lore of 40K. I wonder if "brand loyalty" isn't the main reason it's still defended as it descend into greater stupidity with time thanks to their flanderisation.

Then you're not trying to reason it out hard enough. Your letting yourself be stopped by "real-world-think", which even then is probably faulty.

What is this, church? If I must ignore everything I know about real world AND good world building tips to enjoy some piece of fluff, maybe that fluff isn't worth the paper on which it was printed.

Example: Do Navy Seals matter? Even though they can't take on an army of 1000000? They're obviously "ridiculosly few in numbers", their "most iconic strategy pretty much only works on weakened, distracted enemies" etc. I mean, those rafts can be spotted a mile away, and their armor is paper thin! . . .Or . . . maybe they have ways of being where they need to be, and doing what they have to do.

Do Navy SEALS have an operational specialty that cannot be reproduced by another force? Yes, they do have one unlike Space Marines. Are they used extensively for regular ground operation and attrition warfare? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are they operating alone against a variety of foes winning wars all by themselves? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are Navy SEALS mostly useful for conducting raids and sabotage against in a asymetrical warfare context? Yes, they are and they do lose a lot of efficency and freedom of use against competantly trained and equipped enemies. Are dead SEALS easy to replace? Yes, they are fairly easy to replace. Are SEALS more numerous in terms of proportion then Space Marines? Yes, by a factor of over 1000. It's time to put the SEALS and Space Marines comparison down. The only thing these forces have in common is the general knowledge in culture that both are suposed to be badass.

And don't forget. . . Space Wizards, yo.

...which every other faction have too? If only they were the only space wizards, or the best. that would help.

 JNAProductions wrote:
There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.

That's one million Marines.

Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.

Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.

How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?

Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)

Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.

I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.

Well, they are supposed to be surgical tools / spec ops types who except at quickly striking a fortified enemy position, destroying and killing key targets, or storming an enemy ship or bunker. Their armor and physiology would give them the advantage in such conditions, as in order to kill one you'd need specialized or heavy weaponry, which are difficult to bring to bear in close quarters in such a short notice (per the fluff. The table top isn't accurate). Which would justify their low numbers.

The problem though is that GW also wants them to be battlefield soldiers who fight in conditions where the enemy can bring out the big guns, which is where everything breaks down and becomes nonsense.

What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.

Virtually nothing in 40K fluff withstands even the most cursory rational scrutiny. It was never written to be a hard sci-fi setting, or even a vaguely plausible military/tactical simulation. It wasn't even originally intended to provide a cogent or internally consistent setting for novels. It's pure fantasy, a hodgepodge of bits and pieces that seemed cool at the time, written by people with no background or interest in science, shoved together ad hoc to provide an excuse for painting miniatures and rolling dice.

Space Marine fluff is written from the PoV that Space Marines are awesome super-warriors. Literally nobody at GW cares that 1000 chapters of 1000 marines is too few for a galaxy-spanning empire. They matter in the setting because the fluff says they matter. You can either accept that as one of the setting's axioms (like the existence of the Warp, or the entirely biologically absurd Tyranids) or you can go find a different game with a setting that doesn't explode your suspension of disbelief.

But please just stop whining about it and trolling people who actually like the game and its setting into providing justifications for stuff you've already decided you don't accept, just so you can basically call them idiots for liking such terribad fluff. We all know 40K makes no sense. You're not proving your intellectual superiority by telling us over and over how stupid it is. Just bloody stop.

 Duskweaver wrote:
What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.

Virtually nothing in 40K fluff withstands even the most cursory rational scrutiny. It was never written to be a hard sci-fi setting, or even a vaguely plausible military/tactical simulation. It wasn't even originally intended to provide a cogent or internally consistent setting for novels. It's pure fantasy, a hodgepodge of bits and pieces that seemed cool at the time, written by people with no background or interest in science, shoved together ad hoc to provide an excuse for painting miniatures and rolling dice.

Space Marine fluff is written from the PoV that Space Marines are awesome super-warriors. Literally nobody at GW cares that 1000 chapters of 1000 marines is too few for a galaxy-spanning empire. They matter in the setting because the fluff says they matter. You can either accept that as one of the setting's axioms (like the existence of the Warp, or the entirely biologically absurd Tyranids) or you can go find a different game with a setting that doesn't explode your suspension of disbelief.

But please just stop whining about it and trolling people who actually like the game and its setting into providing justifications for stuff you've already decided you don't accept, just so you can basically call them idiots for liking such terribad fluff. We all know 40K makes no sense. You're not proving your intellectual superiority by telling us over and over how stupid it is. Just bloody stop.

Na man you just like to masturbate with Space Marine novels.

Imperial guard best and most original faction in the setting amiritte?!

 Duskweaver wrote:
What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.

If you're not even going to bother to read peoples' posts, why bother responding to them?

A dispute about what roles Marines actually take on in the lore, and their relative levels of importance in the greater Imperium, is a perfectly reasonable discussion.

 Melissia wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.

If you're not even going to bother to read peoples' posts, why bother responding to them?

A dispute about what roles Marines actually take on in the lore, and their relative levels of importance in the greater Imperium, is a perfectly reasonable discussion.

The heresy happened, there is no real dispute whether or not marines are important in the lore or the imperium at large, its and irrefutable fact, however people are arguing over whether a chapter is relevant in the grand scheme of things, in the lore yes, to the people who are astartesphobes (wakka wakka) they are not because they decided they are not

 Formosa wrote:
The heresy happened

Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.

 Formosa wrote:
there is no real dispute whether or not marines are important in the lore or the imperium at large its and irrefutable fact

It's not really irrefutable. The average Imperial citizen has never met and will never meet a Space Marine. Planets will go hundreds or thousands of years without seeing one, go through entire generations of war without one ever participating. So then, in modern lore, why do marines matter?

But then just as important a question is, as much as why do marines matter, also where do marines matter? And the answer is... in the perspective of the greater war machine of the Imperium, that's where they matter. They're a scalpel to carve important organs, so to speak, of the enemy's warhost. The hammer that smashes the enemy between them and the anvil of the Imperial Guard. They matter. How much they matter, and where they matter, and just as importantly where they do not matter, has been the majority of the discussion in this thread. Most battles involving the Imperium don't involve Space Marines, and many of these are quite important battles controllig the fates of entire planets. But where they appear, they make an impact that cannot be questioned, and turn the tides of war a little bit more in the favor of the Imperium.

What they are not, despite what the tabletop says, is an ever-present, numberless horde.

Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.

total horse crap and you know it, we still tell the stories of ancient rome, retell its legends and myths and still have vestiges of its culture within ours 2000 year on, but that is all a false equivalence anyway, rome falling was not caused by extra dimensional psychic monstrosities that laeft a scar on our psyches and fallen roman legionaries do not sally forth from Rome all the time to rampage and destroy all life all around them with literal nightmares in tow, if you are trying to claim the heresy is not THE most pivotal era in the entire setting, an eta entirely revolved around space marines, then you are a fool and just trying to troll, its an objective fact.

It's not really irrefutable.

Yes it is, you just want to refute it to be a contrarian.

The average Imperial citizen

Is taught about the emperors angels saving them from the evils of the arch enemy and laying low the serpent Horus before acending to his golden throne to protect humanity.

has never met and will never meet a Space Marine

And catholics have never met angels or jesus..... still have a massive impact on their lives eh.

Planets will go hundreds or thousands of years without seeing one

I think you mean thousands, but propaganda vids, the bible of 40k etc. teaches them all of the angels of the emperor.

go through entire generations of war without one ever participating

So imagine the existential dread when one of the literal angels of the emperor not only turns out to be real, but is standing right there beside you, or worse, you are told to fight one.....

So then the question is, as much as why do marines matter, also where do marines matter?

They matter before even a shot is fired to the rank and file of the imperium, they prove the emperor is not only real but his angels watch over us.

And the answer is... in the perspective of the greater war machine of the Imperium, that's where they matter.

That is not an answer

They're a scalpel to carve important organs, so to speak, of the enemy's warhost.

And so much more

The hammer that smashes the enemy between them and the anvil of the Imperial Guard

while representing a GOD to the people they fight alongside and a GODS vengeance to those they fight.

Most battles involving the Imperium don't involve Space Marines, and many of these are quite important battles controllig the fates of entire planets

Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE, the imperium without the marines cannot stop chaos, if chaos wins EVERY other race is dead.

and turn the tides of war a little bit more in the favor of the Imperium

And hold the imperium together as best they can

 Formosa wrote:
total horse crap and you know it

I don't see any Roman Legionnairies around, Formosa. Fact is, outside of historical interest, they're mostly irrelevant in modern times. This isn't a dismissal of the importance of history, of course, but history is not everything, and to the average person going about their lives, the roman legion is little more than a curiosity at best.

Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE

Look, I understand that you feel strongly about this, but that doesn't mean that you should present such hilarious exaggerations as if they are fact. The average battle a Space Marine gets involved in does not determine the fate of the "entire universe". Do not be ridiculous.

 Melissia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The heresy happened

Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.

and it's impact on european linguistics, and it's impact on religion (Rome is still the center of the largest Christian Church) and the fact that to this day Rome remains the capital of a prominant European nation. Dismissing Rome as purely a historical curiosity is inaccurate. Has the influence of Rome reduced considerably now? absolutely, but it's still a fairly important place.

The legal system is heavily influenced by rome.

I don't see any Roman Legionnairies around, Formosa. Fact is, outside of historical interest, they're mostly irrelevant in modern times. This isn't a dismissal of the importance of history, of course, but history is not everything, and to the average person going about their lives, the roman legion is little more than a curiosity at best.

Ah the ol "ignore everything else thats said in order to cherry pick" defence, how quaint, address my points please.

Look, I understand that you feel strongly about this

Nothing to do with feeling, facts do not care about feelings

but that doesn't mean that you should present such hilarious exaggerations as if they are fact

Every single major battle in the imperiums history has involved space marines, the most pivotal moments have revolved around space marines because they are the only ones able to take on these threats, grains of sand form a heap, these are facts, not exagerations.

The average battle a Space Marine gets involved in does not determine the fate of the "entire universe". Do not be ridiculous.

Strawman,

Actual statement
"Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE, the imperium without the marines cannot stop chaos, if chaos wins EVERY other race is dead. "

Look Mel, if you are not going to take the time to address all my points properly and just cherry pick, please do not bother to respond to me at all as it makes you seem disingenuous right from the get go.

Martel732 wrote:
The legal system is heavily influenced by rome.

Not a bad point, Latin even to this day is considered a language of scholarship. used for legal terms, scientific dialogue etc.

[ deleted ]

Kindly stay on topic and keep in mind that Rule #1, to be polite, is not optional.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The legal system is heavily influenced by rome.

Not a bad point, Latin even to this day is considered a language of scholarship. used for legal terms, scientific dialogue etc.

My high school history teacher claimed it was their greatest contribution. That's how I remember that one.

More to the topic, I guess marines matter enough to fight about for 24 pages. I'm certain my view is colored by starting in 2nd ed. They were so bad, it was impossible to take any fluff seriously. We are kinda back there now.

well as I said the problem with Marines is everyone plays Marines.
This means marines are on TT more likely to encounter anti-Marine weapons then they likely do in the fluff. I mean sure every guard squad can have a plasmagun, and in TT they often do. but in the fluff I suspect this isn't the case. outside of Marines there are few armies where the best special weapon to deal with their line infantry (we're talking fluff not number crunching) is plasma. Tyranids and Orks for example are proably best dealt with, via a flamer, something that can thin large numbers of bodies as they get into close range (where they are, fluff wise, most dangerous)

It’s also understanding what a casualty is in 40k.

It’s not outright death. It’s simply a given warrior being out of action long enough for their recovery to fall outside of the game’s scope.

In the background, Marines are terrifyingly resilient. As covered before, they’re outright terror troops, with weapons to match. Every swing of a Chainsword is leaving bloody ruin behind it.

If you’re skilled and lucky enough, you might stab a Marine in the weaker armour joints, given them a few inches of straight silver. Shame he’ll barely blink.

Blast or cut an arm off, and he’s still going. Can you and yours say the same?

If you’re leaving Marines for Dead, you’re making a serious mistake. Sus-An membrane is one thing. But being able to naturally heal all but the most grievous wounds, and quickly, is quite another. You better have the time to go round and decapitate every single survivor. Otherwise they’re liable to recover, and come straight back at you.

Marines are a horrific opponent to face. Stronger, faster, tougher, better Armed than you. Also a lot better at War than you. Their discipline is second to none. They don’t panic, which means it’s harder to force a tactical error upon them.

All this factors into any unit effective. And Marines excel at all of them.

Once again, I refer you back to their legendary status within The Imperium. A mere myth to most Imperial Citizens, to those running a planet they are very, very real. Chances are Governors know the Angels of Death are absolutely real. And the surest way to never meet them face to face is to run a tight ship, and keep your nose clean.

See, when it comes to enforcing His Will, Marines aren’t a threat? They’re a Promise. A Promise of swift, unavoidable, unstoppable vengeance against those that would turn their coat and attempt to go rogue.

BrianDavion wrote:
well as I said the problem with Marines is everyone plays Marines.
This means marines are on TT more likely to encounter anti-Marine weapons then they likely do in the fluff. I mean sure every guard squad can have a plasmagun, and in TT they often do. but in the fluff I suspect this isn't the case. outside of Marines there are few armies where the best special weapon to deal with their line infantry (we're talking fluff not number crunching) is plasma. Tyranids and Orks for example are proably best dealt with, via a flamer, something that can thin large numbers of bodies as they get into close range (where they are, fluff wise, most dangerous)

Problem being that EVERY gun is anti-marine if they are outside cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also understanding what a casualty is in 40k.

It’s not outright death. It’s simply a given warrior being out of action long enough for their recovery to fall outside of the game’s scope.

In the background, Marines are terrifyingly resilient. As covered before, they’re outright terror troops, with weapons to match. Every swing of a Chainsword is leaving bloody ruin behind it.

If you’re skilled and lucky enough, you might stab a Marine in the weaker armour joints, given them a few inches of straight silver. Shame he’ll barely blink.

Blast or cut an arm off, and he’s still going. Can you and yours say the same?

If you’re leaving Marines for Dead, you’re making a serious mistake. Sus-An membrane is one thing. But being able to naturally heal all but the most grievous wounds, and quickly, is quite another. You better have the time to go round and decapitate every single survivor. Otherwise they’re liable to recover, and come straight back at you.

Marines are a horrific opponent to face. Stronger, faster, tougher, better Armed than you. Also a lot better at War than you. Their discipline is second to none. They don’t panic, which means it’s harder to force a tactical error upon them.

All this factors into any unit effective. And Marines excel at all of them.

Once again, I refer you back to their legendary status within The Imperium. A mere myth to most Imperial Citizens, to those running a planet they are very, very real. Chances are Governors know the Angels of Death are absolutely real. And the surest way to never meet them face to face is to run a tight ship, and keep your nose clean.

See, when it comes to enforcing His Will, Marines aren’t a threat? They’re a Promise. A Promise of swift, unavoidable, unstoppable vengeance against those that would turn their coat and attempt to go rogue.

So why are there basically no rules to show any of this? Clowns get rules. Nids get rules. Drukhari get a zillion rules. Reality: enemy counter deploys their plasma equivalent weapons and marines go bye-bye. On the tabletop, that is. Or any weapon, as I mentioned up above.

Because background accurate Marines would be ridiculous?

Seriously. They’d made in-game as they are Custodes look like big girls blouses.

Your army would be a squad at most. You wouldn’t need characters.

No need for dedicated anti-tank Weapons. Just get a Marine close enough, force a hatch and lob in a Frag Grenade (which not having dainty hands, would be a big grenade) and reduce the crew to a fine, red, mist.

I mean, this is the Background sub-forum, is it not? To talk about in game performance and shortcomings, maybe the relevant sub-forum?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because background accurate Marines would be ridiculous?

Seriously. They’d made in-game as they are Custodes look like big girls blouses.

Your army would be a squad at most. You wouldn’t need characters.

No need for dedicated anti-tank Weapons. Just get a Marine close enough, force a hatch and lob in a Frag Grenade (which not having dainty hands, would be a big grenade) and reduce the crew to a fine, red, mist.

I mean, this is the Background sub-forum, is it not? To talk about in game performance and shortcomings, maybe the relevant sub-forum?

It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff. If the fluff were different, ie more REASONABLE and less fanboy-spank-time, the gulf would be smaller and less of a massive pink elephant. Not are they not accurate, they are just about the worst army in the game by win rate. The two bottom dwellers, GK and BA ARE the bottom. Both power armor. Both based off astartes.