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Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Also the problem with his argument is that the fluff isn't even consistent in how ridiculous it is. Marines have been overwhelmed in strength by a single entity atht's physically weaker than a common human (spore mine dragging off a marine in one of the Dawn of War books) alongside the many feats of strength they have in other books.
This is why no one can ever agree on the actual strength of marines, because GW doesn't care enough to put a set canon out In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
I'm going to say that "inconsistency" is often a result of "narrative-fluke". The fact that 'thing X' happened once on record does not make that thing commonplace. Was the thing that dragged off a Space Marine really a Spore Mine? Was it one of the bigger spores? Was it something that might exist amid a Tyranid invasion but not a 'unit' with datasheet provided for game purposes? Was the marine in question just having a bad day?
It's important to note this goes both directions (or all directions). Not too long ago we had a thread where someone was claiming that because they read some instance where a Marine in a story kept firing his bolter after being cut in half (by a Carnifex or something), all Marines in-game should really have T5 3W (or whatever). When really that particular circumstance is already handled by the game as *particular marine makes all his saves/powerfist rolled a 1 to wound.* The spectacular doesn't directly translate to the overall trend.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
See "narrative fluke" above.
I would consider this more to be a problem of authors who don't read the codex fluff. Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible. IMO there really should be a 40k bible written at some point by GW simply to get authors to follow, and not just considering historical events either. Some inconsistency is expected in art, but 40k's about on the same tier as comic books (along with the 'quality' of the literature at times).
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible.
Interesting thing to consider. If Marine clotting is in any way related to actual biology, they should still be able to bleed out, but only after sustaining such severe damage as to run out of whatever souped up clotting factor they produce. Seeing as fibrous tissue is essentially just disorganised collagen, that would likely require running out of immediate protein reserves, so would probably take a Marine being absolutely riddled to use up sufficient reserves trying to clot myriad wounds. It may partly explain the function of the sus-an trance as mobilising protein stores to replenish healing stock in the blood.
A similar thing can happen in humans where they use up all the clotting factors and start bleeding out- disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) is a common mechanism that can cause this. Obviously Marines would have a much higher threshold for depleting clotting factors.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
More likely would be the work of Fabius Bile or a Dark Eldar Archon, considering the Dark Eldar in particular have quite a few marine specimens to experiment on over the millennia. They could also do the reverse, pumping a marine full of coagulant.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wouldn't teaching rebels imperial weaknesses and giving them weapons and tactics be an Alpha Legion thing though? That seems to be something that would be part of their Modus Operandi.
Then again come to think of it, Bile and Dark Eldar would also fit the bill. They seem like the sort who would start a rebellion as a field test for weaponry or just to cause a bit of havoc while they work on something else.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
There *are* anti-coagulants powerful enough to keep an Astartes bleeding, but nearly all of them are either warp-based, of Dark Eldar design, or some kind of Tyranid bioweapon.
A standard anti-coagulant, probably anything we could manufacture on Earth, or what anyone could whip up on a non-Admech/Inquisitorial planet in 40k, is probably nowhere near strong enough to counter Larraman cells.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
There *are* anti-coagulants powerful enough to keep an Astartes bleeding, but nearly all of them are either warp-based, of Dark Eldar design, or some kind of Tyranid bioweapon.
A standard anti-coagulant, probably anything we could manufacture on Earth, or what anyone could whip up on a non-Admech/Inquisitorial planet in 40k, is probably nowhere near strong enough to counter Larraman cells.
Ah, so its that strong then. Makes sense I guess. It would be really embarrassing if the Emperor's Finest could be bled out with a sharp stick dipped in bromadiolone
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
Space Marines quite explicitly are primarily gunboat diplomacy, but this works because they have such a high threat level to almost any world in the Imperium. Drop pods canonically are capable of avoiding air defenses on the vast majority of worlds*. Thunderhawks and other Space Marine transport craft are also depicted as being heavily resistant to ground fire, requiring strong defenses to reliably shoot down. In addition, Marines maintain transport craft that can rapidly relocate armoured vehicles in a way that is out of reach for almost all other Imperial forces. Teleportation circumnavigates most defenses, and does not require Terminator armour (or even Marines at all) to do, although for whatever reason, orbit-to-surface teleporter attacks using power-armoured Marines are rare (teleporter attacks are common in Naval warfare in general though- all Imperial Navy and Marine capital ships can launch teleporter boarding attacks. There is possibly some issue with teleporting into atmosphere/onto planets specifically).
When all is said and done though, these are the true strength of Marines.
Marine Chapters can have phenomenally powerful fleets. During the height of the 12th Black Crusade- the Gothic War, Lord Admiral Ravensburg lead a fleet comprising most of the capital ships of Battlefleet Gothic- the strongest force he could muster. This fleet had 17 capital ships. The Ultramarines (admittedly a well-supplied First Founding Chapter, but not fleet based) have at least 8 active Battle Barges (one being a Gloriana class), and at least 17 strike cruisers operating around M41. This dwarfs Ravensburg's fleet at Gethsemane, and quite possibly is not even the full capital ship complement of the Ultramarines, only what is known. This is a fleet of huge size in 40k terms, and is almost certainly enough to defeat the orbital defences of all but the most vital of Imperial worlds (places like Ryza or Necromunda). With a fleet like this, it becomes less unlikely that the Ultramarines would defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth. Many fleet based Chapters will operate similar fleets, and the vast majority of Chapters have at least 2-3 Battle Barges. Space Marines have a huge concentration of naval power in 40k terms.
*Of course there are always special-snowflake planets in fluff snippets that counter a particular common tactic and require special countermeasures. Your Firestorm nexus planet is a good example, the bastion cities on Vigilus are another. For whatever reason, the defenses on these planets are not widely replicated, which suggests they have irreplaceable relic variant defenses.
whats your source for the Ultramarines fleet numbers? because the last time they specified the Ultramarines fleet is was 3 battle barges, and 7 strike cruisers, (SM 6th edition codex)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
My headcannon/futile wish is that all space marine numbers in fluff are x10. There's 10,000 marines in a chapter, a company has 10x as many squads, etc. Makes things work out pretty nicely.
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
Space Marines quite explicitly are primarily gunboat diplomacy, but this works because they have such a high threat level to almost any world in the Imperium. Drop pods canonically are capable of avoiding air defenses on the vast majority of worlds*. Thunderhawks and other Space Marine transport craft are also depicted as being heavily resistant to ground fire, requiring strong defenses to reliably shoot down. In addition, Marines maintain transport craft that can rapidly relocate armoured vehicles in a way that is out of reach for almost all other Imperial forces. Teleportation circumnavigates most defenses, and does not require Terminator armour (or even Marines at all) to do, although for whatever reason, orbit-to-surface teleporter attacks using power-armoured Marines are rare (teleporter attacks are common in Naval warfare in general though- all Imperial Navy and Marine capital ships can launch teleporter boarding attacks. There is possibly some issue with teleporting into atmosphere/onto planets specifically).
When all is said and done though, these are the true strength of Marines.
Marine Chapters can have phenomenally powerful fleets. During the height of the 12th Black Crusade- the Gothic War, Lord Admiral Ravensburg lead a fleet comprising most of the capital ships of Battlefleet Gothic- the strongest force he could muster. This fleet had 17 capital ships. The Ultramarines (admittedly a well-supplied First Founding Chapter, but not fleet based) have at least 8 active Battle Barges (one being a Gloriana class), and at least 17 strike cruisers operating around M41. This dwarfs Ravensburg's fleet at Gethsemane, and quite possibly is not even the full capital ship complement of the Ultramarines, only what is known. This is a fleet of huge size in 40k terms, and is almost certainly enough to defeat the orbital defences of all but the most vital of Imperial worlds (places like Ryza or Necromunda). With a fleet like this, it becomes less unlikely that the Ultramarines would defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth. Many fleet based Chapters will operate similar fleets, and the vast majority of Chapters have at least 2-3 Battle Barges. Space Marines have a huge concentration of naval power in 40k terms.
*Of course there are always special-snowflake planets in fluff snippets that counter a particular common tactic and require special countermeasures. Your Firestorm nexus planet is a good example, the bastion cities on Vigilus are another. For whatever reason, the defenses on these planets are not widely replicated, which suggests they have irreplaceable relic variant defenses.
whats your source for the Ultramarines fleet numbers? because the last time they specified the Ultramarines fleet is was 3 battle barges, and 7 strike cruisers, (SM 6th edition codex)
If you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
That is just the way it is with Marines- the same is true of the Imperial Guard compared to the Imperial Navy.
It was true in the Horus Heresy too- the combat prowess of the entire Imperial Fists Legion of ~100,000 Marines is nothing compared to their enormous fleet of over 100 capital ships, including extremely heavy examples like the Phalanx.
The primary reason Marines are not considered to upset the balance of power too much is that their 40k fleet assets are primarily geared to planetary assault and disabling orbital defences. Navy capital ships generally have an advantage in a pitched battle due to superior ship-to-ship weaponry like lances. However, someone posted the quote about Marines from BFG earlier, and it mentions how even in pitched battles Marine calital ships would still be fearsome opponents, and they are. Of course, most Chapters have 2-3 battle barges and about ten strike cruisers, which means their massed forces are significant, but not outmatching a massed sector fleet. Still, that would be a huge naval force for most engagements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/08 08:26:53
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
To be fair, Smudge, I don't think GW itself really knows.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/08 21:02:33
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
The Space Marines are presented as the core because the battles at the surface are the core of the game.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Actually, most of the named Battle barges in the Lexicanum list are from Codices or White Dwarfs, not novels.
I've found an image of the Chapter Organisation from the 6th ed Codex:
It lists three Battle barges (one of which is not even listed in the Lexicanum article!), but does not list the Macragge's Honour, a ship we know to be in the possession of the Ultramarines at this point, as Guilliman reinstates it as his headquarters shortly after this snapshot is dated (999 M41). So we know the Ultramarines to have at least one additional unlisted Battle barge. This somewhat calls into question the number listed.
As you mention, the number could simply represent active ships, with ships being refitted not listed. Other options could be that ships on extended duties away from the main fleet body (such as providing honour guards or whatnot) are excluded. A further option is that this may include the Chapter fleet reserve, but not ships assigned to specific Companies- each Company maintaining it's own vessel. This would be similar to how these organisational charts often show the Chaplains attached to Companies separately form the unassigned Chaplains in the Reclusiam (although this chart has no Reclusiam box, or any Chaplains at all bar Cassius, which is odd).
We can see the same vessels listed in the 3rd edition Codex in 745 M41 just prior to the 1st Tyrannic war (as shown by the date and the listing of Captain Invictus of the 1st Company):
However, in the years between the two, we know that at least one Battle barge not listed there fought in the 1st Tyrannic war from Battlefleet Gothic fluff- the Seditio Opprimere, and was refitted following the war into a unique format. This Battle barge is not listed in either Codex source. Note that the fluff was also published between the two Codices above, first in a White Dwarf in 2004, then in the BFG Compendium in 2010 (pg 58). So once again, we have the same list of three Battle barges being called into question by a contemporaneous vessel, from fluff published for the GW space-combat game no less. Two other different Battle barges are listed for the same White Dwarf article that the Seditio Opprimere first appeared in, but I do not have access to the article and cannot confirm any details about them.
Overall, I don't feel the Codex number is as irrevocable a piece of evidence as you do, considering the typical inconsistencies in the fluff and a number of other Ultramarines Battle Barges being listed in various sources.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/09 01:05:20
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
A: The scenario I was putting forward was a single Strike Cruiser using some of its marine complement to take over a similarly armed defense station. If you assume the defense station is weaker than a Strike Cruiser, that's easy! We just take over multiple weaker stations, and still double our firepower. (Or whatever metric you desire). The actual point being that a few marines can take actions that are meaningful even in an engagement on the scale of starships.
B: Without marines, the types of action that the fleet can take is incredibly limited. The marines turn it into a swiss army knife that can perform a wide variety of tasks.
C: Yah. Space Marine fleet presence is a big deal. You didn't know this?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/09 01:59:28
f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Actually, most of the named Battle barges in the Lexicanum list are from Codices or White Dwarfs, not novels.
I've found an image of the Chapter Organisation from the 6th ed Codex:
[spoiler]
It lists three Battle barges (one of which is not even listed in the Lexicanum article!), but does not list the Macragge's Honour, a ship we know to be in the possession of the Ultramarines at this point, as Guilliman reinstates it as his headquarters shortly after this snapshot is dated (999 M41). So we know the Ultramarines to have at least one additional unlisted Battle barge. This somewhat calls into question the number listed.
As you mention, the number could simply represent active ships, with ships being refitted not listed. Other options could be that ships on extended duties away from the main fleet body (such as providing honour guards or whatnot) are excluded. A further option is that this may include the Chapter fleet reserve, but not ships assigned to specific Companies- each Company maintaining it's own vessel. This would be similar to how these organisational charts often show the Chaplains attached to Companies separately form the unassigned Chaplains in the Reclusiam (although this chart has no Reclusiam box, or any Chaplains at all bar Cassius, which is odd).
We can see the same vessels listed in the 3rd edition Codex in 745 M41 just prior to the 1st Tyrannic war (as shown by the date and the listing of Captain Invictus of the 1st Company):
However, in the years between the two, we know that at least one Battle barge not listed there fought in the 1st Tyrannic war from Battlefleet Gothic fluff- the Seditio Opprimere, and was refitted following the war into a unique format. This Battle barge is not listed in either Codex source. Note that the fluff was also published between the two Codices above, first in a White Dwarf in 2004, then in the BFG Compendium in 2010 (pg 58). So once again, we have the same list of three Battle barges being called into question by a contemporaneous vessel, from fluff published for the GW space-combat game no less. Two other different Battle barges are listed for the same White Dwarf article that the Seditio Opprimere first appeared in, but I do not have access to the article and cannot confirm any details about them.
Overall, I don't feel the Codex number is as irrevocable a piece of evidence as you do, considering the typical inconsistencies in the fluff and a number of other Ultramarines Battle Barges being listed in various sources.[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
it's a exact sum of numbers. which to my mind is proably more reliable then counting ship names that pop up, as I find ships often are named onced and never used again. it's due to the lack of a detailed naval TO&E for a marine chapter. which puts us in a strange spot of "6 named vessels but only supposed to have 3" the best answer is that the ultramarines possses a number of strike cruisers and battlebarges in excess of the number the codex quotes, but they only have the manpower and resources to MAN 3 barges and 8 strike cruisers. the others are dry docked. for maintinace reasons the ships are rotated in duty well others undergo maintance etc to allow the Ultramarines navy to undergo a far greater level of activity then would otherwise be allowed. (the kind of operations space Marines naval assists undertake as a matter of course just so happen to be the types of operations that are hardest on equipment. high speed burns into a planetary orbit to insert troops. boarding actions etc. these things are going to stress components fast)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/09 21:17:20
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
nareik wrote: What if UM have fleet assets outside of 'fleet command'?
I personally think this is likely, and the most elegant solution to the canon conflict. Essentially, if we treat the Fleet Command as a Chapter fleet reserve of 3 Battle barges and 8 Strike cruisers, use an additional Battle barge as the personal ship for the Chapter Master and headquarters staff, 3 battle barges assigned to companies with the other 7 companies being assigned a Strike cruiser, we reach a combined fleet strength of 7 Battle barges and 15 Strike cruisers. A number suspiciously similar to the number of listed Ultramarines vessels in active service.
The Fleet command would still be the single greatest concentration of fleet power within the Chapter, but not the only source.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/09 21:45:06
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
The whole "3 Battle Barges" thing in BFG was given for an average Space Marine Chapter. I.E. your run of the mill Chapter that is mentioned once by GW and never heard from again. Those with the names of the former Legions probably get away with skirting the limits more, so long as they don't get too blatant about it.
The UM Chapter may have many more former Legion space assets but officially only have some on active duty, with the rest mothballed. Is that violating the Codex in spirit if not in letter? Possibly. Is it hypocritical for the UM to be violating the Codex? Sure. But like so much within the Imperium, what you can get away with depends more on your political standing than strictly speaking any letter of the law.
Presumably drop pods. They're a bit more alarming when 100 of them board your vessel or show up in your throne room.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Iracundus wrote: The whole "3 Battle Barges" thing in BFG was given for an average Space Marine Chapter. I.E. your run of the mill Chapter that is mentioned once by GW and never heard from again. Those with the names of the former Legions probably get away with skirting the limits more, so long as they don't get too blatant about it.
The UM Chapter may have many more former Legion space assets but officially only have some on active duty, with the rest mothballed. Is that violating the Codex in spirit if not in letter? Possibly. Is it hypocritical for the UM to be violating the Codex? Sure. But like so much within the Imperium, what you can get away with depends more on your political standing than strictly speaking any letter of the law.
no the 3 battle barges is from codex space marines. the blood angels are listed as only having 2.
we may disagree, but my point is the lexnicium "THEY HAVE A DOZEN" statement is at odds with the actual lore. offically according to GW the ultramarines fleet includes 3 battle barges
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Lexicanum lists them as having seven, not a dozen, citing its source as "Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition)".
Specifically it lists the following at the start of the Indomitus Crusade:
1 Gloriana Class Battleship 3 Star Forts 7 Battle Barges 15 Strike Cruisers 20 Rapid Strike vessels 75 Thunderhawks
Because yes, the Ultramarines do defy the codex astartes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 20:02:03
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: Lexicanum lists them as having seven, not a dozen, citing its source as "Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition)".
Specifically it lists the following at the start of the Indomitus Crusade:
1 Gloriana Class Battleship
3 Star Forts
7 Battle Barges
15 Strike Cruisers
20 Rapid Strike vessels
75 Thunderhawks
Because yes, the Ultramarines do defy the codex astartes.
yes and I'm asking for a citation. Lexnicium prides itself on taking only the lore as presented so let's see the cite. give me a soruce for that figure. it should be easy eneugh.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
... is your mouse broken, can you not click on the citation link? Or is your scroll bar broken that you can't go to source [62b] at the bottom?
Lexicanum clearly cites Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition), page 13. This kind of laziness is kinda rude, actually.
It's one thing to say their citation is wrong (I haven't checked it myself, I don't have a copy of the book on me), but like claiming they don't cite one when they obviously do is just... ugh.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/06/11 22:02:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Lexicanum lists 9 Battle Barges as "in service", but one of it's sources (SM Codex 5th Edition pg.17) lists Fleet Command as 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers. (same in 3rd Ed Codex)
SM Codex 8th edition pg.13 doesn't appear to list any fleet assets, so I'm not sure why it's a citation for that purpose.
Lexicanum also cites a White Dwarf (no 288) for a number of the other assets. I can't check that as I don't have it.
It is true that some assets may not be listed under "Fleet Command". I'd like to get details from the other source material on that, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 23:07:30
Macragge's Honour (the Gloriana Class Battleship mentioned above, which is effectively Roboute's battle barge, which we can confirm is canon though I would not classify it as a battle barge per se)
Seditio Opprimere (was nearly lost during Behemoth, rebuilt on Calth, mentioned in the BFG Compendium, assumed to be functional again)
Severian (mentioned in like a one-liner in C:SM 3rd edition, assumed functional as it was not mentioned as being destroyed)
Octavius (mentioned C:SM 5th and Tyranids 2nd as being used by Calgar in a campaign to cleanse Genestealers, assumed functional)
Spear of Macragge (mentioned in C:SM 5th as belonging to the UM's best tank commander, currently Chronus, assumed functional)
Adsidus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Aeternus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Mare Nostrum (Flagship of the 8th Company, mentioned in the novel Of Honour and Iron, assumed functional)
Laurels of Victory (Took part in the War of Beasts, mentioned in Vigilus Ablaze, assumed functional as it was mentioned to withdraw from combat).
Bear in mind that GW doesn't really keep a tight reign on this stuff, and a lot of this is from novels rather than codices.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/12 00:29:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Macragge's Honour (the Gloriana Class Battleship mentioned above, which is effectively Roboute's battle barge, which we can confirm is canon though I would not classify it as a battle barge per se)
Seditio Opprimere (was nearly lost during Behemoth, rebuilt on Calth, mentioned in the BFG Compendium, assumed to be functional again)
Severian (mentioned in like a one-liner in C:SM 3rd edition, assumed functional as it was not mentioned as being destroyed)
Octavius (mentioned C:SM 5th and Tyranids 2nd as being used by Calgar in a campaign to cleanse Genestealers, assumed functional)
Spear of Macragge (mentioned in C:SM 5th as belonging to the UM's best tank commander, currently Chronus, assumed functional)
Adsidus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Aeternus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Mare Nostrum (Flagship of the 8th Company, mentioned in the novel Of Honour and Iron, assumed functional)
Laurels of Victory (Took part in the War of Beasts, mentioned in Vigilus Ablaze, assumed functional as it was mentioned to withdraw from combat).
Bear in mind that GW doesn't really keep a tight reign on this stuff, and a lot of this is from novels rather than codices.
right which is the thing, we hgave some names sure but the fleet strength numbers as reported as "3 battle barges" hence the they have 6, has no basis in canon. yes I agree GW is sloppy with their naval assests (my hope is that when the new BFG happens they'll get less sloppy and start paying attention to that) but as it stands? ...
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Melissia wrote: ... is your mouse broken, can you not click on the citation link? Or is your scroll bar broken that you can't go to source [62b] at the bottom?
Lexicanum clearly cites Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition), page 13. This kind of laziness is kinda rude, actually.
.
that citation is for the tavle of orgionization that completely lacks fleet numbers I suspect GW realized that by giving fleet listings they where writing themselves into a corner they didn't want to. and will HAPPILY accept an "unknown" listing for their fleet size. but the last time we where given precise numbers? yeah it was smaller.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/12 00:32:13
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
codex fluff. Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible. 
~4100
~1660
