Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"The printer jammed!" = "Buy a new printer!"

Another good example is mobile phone interfaces - notice how many apps and mobile phone OS do most of the stuff for the owner.

Downloading "core" apps; updating; organising; etc... Many apps and software often do a lot of legwork for the user. This cuts down almost any customising of features and makes the software work almost only one way with a set appearance and design.

The designers know most people won't adapt to changes or read the manuals; so they build software that dictates to the user how to use it.



For those who know a bit more or who have specific requirements this can be annoying and frustraiting when they know software is capable of a result, which is locked behind the interface.

Another tricky area is software updates that move things around; which is often done to confuse the user. Often a good way to remove features or not upgrade older features and also to change default settings - Facebooks privacy settings are a famous one for resetting themselves after an interface change, making it doubly hard to change back and leaving many users just leaving it on default and being dictated too.


It works for the most part because even today many people only develop a casual understanding of things. So if you're going to bring 3D printing home its got to be idiot proof because whilst the average person is not an idiot; they are still unlikely to develop a deeper understanding of the software and hardware involved.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Great discussion and thanks, I'd like to hear more about the challenges people have with 3D printers, I see posts all the time and the people printing off whole BFG fleets seem to find it easy.

Misprints are far more common than 3d print... enthusiasts... would have you believe. Prints becoming unstuck, supports not printing properly or breaking during print, filament running out, the print curling or some other thing that wastes a 6-10 hour print. With experience you can take steps to reduce misprints and through experience you figure out how you need to slice parts to get them to print but that's more time and experience that the majority of people just won't want to have to deal with (the traditional paper printer analogies strike true again).

Imagine that almost every time you tried to print a letter or a photo, you had to adjust the printer settings to specifically print for that piece. Even something as simple as which way round the letter printed - from top to bottom or bottom to top. The only way to truly know what the settings were for that particular piece was to try a test print and see how it came out, adjust on what went wrong and try again. Only the test prints still take several hours each.

And by the time you've dialled in your print settings, you've run out of ink (filament) and have to crack open a new set of ink cartridges that may or may not work with the same print settings you've spent hours dialling in.

While there is the aspect of "Oh you can just leave it printing" side to how long things take to print, I've noticed that you need an incredible amount of mental stamina to make it through a large print project.

I tried to print off this keep when I had a week off work. I was literally timing it so that within 5 minutes of a print finishing, I was starting the next one. I had the time that I could do that and I was at home all week. I organised my schedule around printing this keep to ensure that I could be there to quickly change things out.

I couldn't manage it in an entire week. It took nearly 2 weeks for me to get 90% there before I just lost all interest in the project. The choice between printing something like that off and just buying a pre-made kit, even though the kit is more expensive? It's not even a choice for me any more. Kit every. Single. Time.

Will the average person spend 2 weeks printing off a terrain piece, sitting there and babysitting the printer? Rather than just buying a kit? No. Not a chance.

The final biggest issue I see is that of getting the models in the first place. 95% of the free models out there are terrible. Absolutely terrible. Most of them are extracts from games, which don't have any detail and are just not set up for printing. Most of the models which aren't ripped from games aren't set up for 3D printing anyway. So what do you do? You buy models. Which is sort of defeating the purpose of supposedly cheap and almost free (once you've bought the printer) 3D printing.

Yes, the professionally made 3D models are decent quality, but they're still not as good as model kits and to even stand a chance of printing anything substantial without it taking days for a single piece, you need to bump the print quality down a few steps. Combine that with the expense and hassle of owning and maintaining a 3D printer, and ridiculously long print times and the technology just doesn't make sense for the average consumer.

 Daedleh wrote:
Imagine that almost every time you tried to print a letter or a photo, you had to adjust the printer settings to specifically print for that piece. Even something as simple as which way round the letter printed - from top to bottom or bottom to top. The only way to truly know what the settings were for that particular piece was to try a test print and see how it came out, adjust on what went wrong and try again. Only the test prints still take several hours each.

And by the time you've dialled in your print settings, you've run out of ink (filament) and have to crack open a new set of ink cartridges that may or may not work with the same print settings you've spent hours dialling in.

... like printing labels. LOL

I always do test prints on paper first!

I think it's a little good, and a little bad as it stands right now in May 2019.

In one way, I think it will help the hobby, not hurt it - some dude was saying he wanted a to find third party bits to make Stalker turrets and couldn't find any. This was a pretty simple design, so I designed a model myself in Rhino and put it on thingiverse. I also printed a copy of my own, and discovered that it wasn't perfect, so fixed it up, and the second print was.

So now this dude has to buy more Rhinos to make into Stalkers. This isn't hurting Stalker sales because this guy was presumably never going to buy 5 Stalkers anyway, he was looking for third parties to begun with. This has him playing the game more, and then potentially buying other stuff.

The people it's potentially going to hurt the most are third party conversion vendors like Kromlech and Puppetswar, etc etc. There are bits on Thingiverse for nearly anything and while a lot of them are bad, a lot of them are not and it's hard to compete with free. These guys are probably going to need to start selling stl files instead of physical models at some future point, which essentially makes them a software company instead of a physical vendor, and then they have all the software company problems to deal with (piracy, etc etc). There are people doing just that, though - I do pay money for STL files when they are really well done models you can't get free, and I personally have limited 3D modelling skills. So it is a business.

The status quo as is can't last, forever. The price of resin is only ever going to go down - you can already get a liter of Siraya Easy for $35 - and the size of resin print beds is only going to get larger. Once resin printers are made stupid-proof (ie, water-washable), I think the industry is going to be in trouble.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Great discussion and thanks, I'd like to hear more about the challenges people have with 3D printers, I see posts all the time and the people printing off whole BFG fleets seem to find it easy.

It is easy, but only due to the nature of BFG models, not due to the nature of 3D printing. BFG ships are small, they are shaped in a way that easily facilitates 1-piece printing, and they have unseen undersides which means that post-print cleanup isn't very extensive. For those little ships, you can probably fit a dozen of them on a build plate and run them off in 6 hours.

As long as GW can top the quality that 3d printers make, i dont see 3d printers taking over completely and destroying GW. I think 3d printers if they arnt able to efficiently copy the quality of GW or some thing, then they are just a helpful thing as a side thing, like printing things that you cant get, or just to print random stuff on the side for fun.


Have a good day.

With music and videos, the physical object isn't important. People just need the data, and an electronic device to experience it.

With models, the physical copy is the entire point.

I've thought about dabbling in 3d printing, but I haven't found many free models that I'd want to print. The model version of Napster needs to come along before GW is seriously threatened. From what I have seen, the free stuff out there isn't like downloading copies of the actual music. It's like only the bad cover versions of the songs are available. I wonder if GW is just too niche to ever have to worry.

And I don't even want to print GW stuff. I don't mind buying miniatures from a store. I would want to see the rare out-of-print midels scanned and uploaded somewhere to share.

A guy I drill with gave me a 3D printed Rhino. Like the whole tank, minus the weapon which wasn't part of the CAD file he had. It incurred little cost for him, and to be frank, given the cost of GW minis lately, is very appetizing for someone like me who wants something bizarre like 3 Vindicators but doesn't have $180 to blow on 3 tanks. Under normal circumstances I'm vehemently against anything like this, but the bizarre inflation of GW's prices is easing me to the thought of owning such models.

It all depends on the quality you want, the time you're willing to expend setting up prints and learning the process, and the raw money you're willing to spend.

Cost of entry might be plummeting, but costs beyond initial printer purchase can add up fast and test/failed prints gobble up materials. FDM filament is reasonably priced but high-resolution printing resin can be very costly so just be ready for those added costs.

If near GW retail quality is what you're after it's going to take the right printer, a fair amount of materials, along with a significant learning curve to get really top-notch results. If that level of quality is something you're willing to compromise on, then the barriers to entry are much lower but you can still expect a learning curve and lots of wasted materials as you perfect the technique.

While it's possible, if you want comparable quality to a GW kit it's still easier to just take the hours to earn the funds and buy the kit. Factor in the learning curve and prep time it takes to clean the models after a print and you still need a really compelling reason to print your own opposed to just buying an official kit. Want to do something custom or for small scale production, yeah, that makes more sense, but if you just want to sidestep GW and avoid the cost, the tech just isn't there yet. It's absolutely amazing, don't get me wrong, but it's just not mass-market appeal accessible yet.

How do I know? I'm literally in the process of starting a small miniature production studio (see my sig) and have spent months learning how to get top-notch results from a high-res resin 3D printer. I was scratch building designs until recently, but now that I'm trying to accelerate the studio I'm upping my game. If you're interested, check out my W.I.P. p'log Legion Rising (again, in my sig) for ongoing updates from my studio and personal workbench which overlap a lot and feature my trials and tribulations as I tackle projects for the studio and my own hobby.



Here's a recent print (yes, those are components straight from the printer with only basic cleanup) of a personal project for my Kastelan bots that will eventually become a kit for my studio. Making parts this high quality and seamless is not impossible but it's also not completely straightforward. Again, what you see here is several months of perfecting my technique to get these results. With all of the prep time, trial-and-error, and cleanup labour combined with the material costs, I'm really not sure if it's cheaper to print a direct copy of a GW model if close-to-GW-level-quality is the goal. Again, if you to make something completely custom and/or can settle for (sometimes much) less quality, then that is a different story but even in that case, there's a serious lack of convenience compared to just opening a retail kit. If you go that route, just handling the toxic resin along with its usually awful aroma will be enough to turn many people off.

I agree the official kits are expensive, and they're expensive for a reason because top quality models like that are expensive to produce. If you're in an advanced and wealthy industrialized country, I dare you to take any GW kit and divide the cost of that kit by the minimum wage of your country; now ask yourself honestly if you think you could make that model kit from scratch or with 3D printing in that many hours, and then ask what the cost is to make that model kit. Trust me, making it from scratch is not cheaper, I've been there done that, and 3D printing just isn't mass market plug-and-play enough to do it either... yet. But, no matter what the future brings the cost of the printer is just one tiny factor that's just the tip of the iceberg if you're going to try and answer this question properly.

Video stores, and music stores were used as an example. What about Book Stores? They are still thriving. Funny didn't the internet said nobody would be buying paper books over 10 years ago?

They are still going on strong. Lots of magazines still being sold. Yes lots of people use digital, but many still use paper as well. So while some formats like video/music have destroyed physical sales, it seems book sales, or something that is actually physical and you hold in your hands might be a different story. (no pun intended.)

Lots of great points were taken. Needing patience and quality still not there and needing so much to clean up and take care. Just too much work for most people.

How many people are printing out the books they download? Not many. Why is that? Cost of ink? Cost of paper? Too much work and effort? Quality is not the same as if buying the book?

Before, I thought 3D printers would put GW out of business. Now I don't think so. Most of us don't want to go through the effort since the money saved is actually more work and time involved.

Video games haven't put GW and other miniature companies out of business. Dead tree format is still strong. As long as it is something we hold in our hands, I don't think the old way will ever be replaced by the new way.

Watching a movie. Listening to music. Something we don't hold in our hands to enjoy. We use our ears and eyes to enjoy music and movies. Reading a book, while using our eyes, for lots of people, it's holding and turning the pages that is part of the experiance. Doing miniatures is cutting them off a frame, not waiting hours and hours for them to be done.

I believe we are still a long ways out UNLESS, the convienance is there and affordable. We are not there yet. How soon? I don't have a clue.

What 3D printing may allow though is a shorter timescale to.ownership. For a commercial plastic kit there is a whole supply chain to sort out and stock.to.build.up before consumers can get their grubby paws on them. Much quicker to.go from artists finished digital model to pulling it out of the printer. The benefits of distributed manufacturing

I guess you could.view it like hardback books. A premium is required to get the first tranche of the product, with cheaper more mass produced product coming among a bit later.

Davor wrote:
Video stores, and music stores were used as an example. What about Book Stores? They are still thriving. Funny didn't the internet said nobody would be buying paper books over 10 years ago?

Because nowt is as good as book at being a book, I love my Kindle and its low-tech enough for my luddite needs, but I much prefer game rules and books in physical form (then I'm a aging grump the wrong side of 40)

As for 3d printing, we've clearly moved beyond the tape to tape era that was meant to wreck to music industry, and are up to about the dial up / dos era where with a bit of know how, patience and willingness to fail you can get some good results, however outside of the dedicated few those aren't really traits of our time as people are broadly expecting replicators

As is I think best use is scenics were flaws or misprints can be easy to fix or hide, my local FLGS has printed an awful lot for a range of games and it looks fine, likewise at least 4 local gamers have varying set ups and are filling the FB groups with cool pics

If we can take GW’s bottom line as representative, it’s a no from me.

And I’m not saying we can. Limited data is limited.

Even with lowering prices, and higher quality, the day has not come for 3D printing for everyone. Not even close. The technical knowledge necessary for good printing, let alone design, is beyond the desire and ability of a significant section of the gaming market. Until it is as simple as 'push a button, top quality mini comes out', it will remain a niche, but a growing one, for dreamers and hardcore enthusiasts. Mainstream, not so much.

3D printing is still like CD burning used to be. The machines were expensive, slow, and temperamental. I expect the technology will continue to improve just like CD burning did.

Right now, someone who has the know how and the equipment can make excellent quality miniatures for a whole group of people.
I have a nice FDM printer and with my 0.25mm nozzle I just finished printing myself an excellent quality Leviathan dread. I also printed titanicus weapons for my friends who were getting into that game. I made 3 very nice repressor tanks for my brother in law. I've done land raiders and razorbacks. There are plenty of excellent models for free on thingiverse. All the expensive custodes vehicles from forgeworld are at my fingertips. Not everything has been done well yet, but it is growing every day.
I can't do the detail of infantry models, but anything bigger is no problem for me. I could get a resin printer in order to do those smaller models, but just don't have the space right now.

It is a time consuming process, but I bought a quality machine so I don't have to hover over it while its printing. Do I have failed prints? Not much anymore.
Would the average miniature gamer be able to do what I do? No, not right now. But all it takes is one of me in a group of friends to start having an impact.
Making models used to be a very specialized artistic skill. My first space marines 20 years ago were originally sculpted by hand in England. Now they are done on computers, and thousands of people across the globe are learning and making beautiful designs in their spare time.

I think this is the start of what will be a disruptive technology. It is not near an apocalypse right now, but it will be in time for those companies that don't want to adapt and compete.

Davor wrote:
What about Book Stores? They are still thriving

Not even close. Book stores are all but dead. Borders? Dead. B. Dalton? Dead. Crown? Waldenbooks? Dead.

Amazon killed them.

The only bookstores that I still see are niche sellers like Christian Books and clearance like Book Off.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Davor wrote:
What about Book Stores? They are still thriving

Not even close. Book stores are all but dead. Borders? Dead. B. Dalton? Dead. Crown? Waldenbooks? Dead.

Amazon killed them.

The only bookstores that I still see are niche sellers like Christian Books and clearance like Book Off.

Amazon is a book store.

Pink Horror wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Davor wrote:
What about Book Stores? They are still thriving

Not even close. Book stores are all but dead. Borders? Dead. B. Dalton? Dead. Crown? Waldenbooks? Dead.

Amazon killed them.

The only bookstores that I still see are niche sellers like Christian Books and clearance like Book Off.

Amazon is a book store.

No, Amazon is a general retailer.

Whether or not there are still tons of physical bookstores versus Amazon (and yes, Amazon has put many out of business) is not the same as saying "there are no more physical books, it's all digital." Amazon, Miniature Market, et al. have made the same impact on FLGS.

Where people are buying those dead-tree books has changed, but the fact that people still do buy them, and more than they do digital, is more relevant to the idea of digital-only files to be printed at home versus buying physical models.

Don't buy a 3d printer to make minis. Buy a 3d printer because you enjoy it as a hobby.

I didn't get my TEVO Tarantula specifically to make a Leman Russ Ryza Turret, that's just a side effect of the tinkering.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Not even close. Book stores are all but dead. Borders? Dead. B. Dalton? Dead. Crown? Waldenbooks? Dead.

Amazon killed them.

The only bookstores that I still see are niche sellers like Christian Books and clearance like Book Off.

That's actually only half of the truth. Independent book stores seem to have recovered recently after Amazon started murdering the bigger ones. Their found local niches without having to compete with those and are flourshing despite Amazon.

NightReaver wrote:
Don't buy a 3d printer to make minis. Buy a 3d printer because you enjoy it as a hobby.

I didn't get my TEVO Tarantula specifically to make a Leman Russ Ryza Turret, that's just a side effect of the tinkering.

Yes, pretty much this. The Warhams related stuff is very small part of what I wanted to print, the majority is 1/60ish Battletech\MWO "minis" for display, and stuff from movies I love (Godzilla, Aliens, and so on).

 Ouze wrote:

NightReaver wrote:
Don't buy a 3d printer to make minis. Buy a 3d printer because you enjoy it as a hobby.

I didn't get my TEVO Tarantula specifically to make a Leman Russ Ryza Turret, that's just a side effect of the tinkering.

Yes, pretty much this. The Warhams related stuff is very small part of what I wanted to print, the majority is 1/60ish Battletech\MWO "minis" for display, and stuff from movies I love (Godzilla, Aliens, and so on).

Yeah, i want my Warhammer to be the best quality possible. So definitely not 3d printing any armys, but i would love to print things for fun when i have no war hammer to paint. Actually 3d printing might be a real pain now i think of it, what if in 10 years every ones using 3d printed minis with layer lines every where, and this becoming widely acceptable..Sort of like allowing greys.

Technology usually goes through three phases:
* Enthusiast
* Business
* Consumer

The Enthusiast phase is commonly mistaken for the Consumer phase. Many businesses, such as medical and even Dad's dentist *are* using 3D printers, but you need to have cheap, fast, *and* good to enter Consumer.

Injection molding is still cheaper and faster, and it also improves in its technology as 3D printers get better.

I think what 3D printers *will* do is make plastic shapes that are have a very small market -- such as one person. As said, dentists make molds with 3D printers for crowns, and every crown is individual. We've already had KS for custom fantasy miniatures. Many boardgamers use their 3D printers for accessories for their favorite boardgames. Your bizarrely named kid can finally have a bicycle license plate with his name on it.

There's definitely a market for customized miniatures. You're probably familiar with the term, "bits", and bits are various ways to customize your character miniature. And you won't have to wait 3-4 weeks for your bits to arrive through the mail, you can just print them out.

But printing out 125+ miniatures? Eh... no. I'm still fine with paying CMON $100+ for a miniature laden boardgame, rather than doing all the work myself, because painting's taking enough of my hobby time.

Now, a 3D printer that also *paints*...

I have a mate who has a 3D printer. While we are not at the stage of printing our own models (although you can get some very good files that would pass muster) we no longer need to worry about buying tokens, markers or any form of 3d terrain. If we have a project or set that we all need for terrain or a RPG module then we will all chip in for the raw materials and the results that we get are very very good.

I would equate 3D printers to airbrushing. It is well within the grasp of most people to do, but you need to be prepared to invest some time and money into it to get the best results.

Another friend of ours has use of a 3D scanner. So in theory he could 3D scan a model and then we could 3D print it. This starts to bring us back into the realms of recasts and knock offs which has been quite contentious in the past.

I think 3d printing is on it's way to change the hobby, but not necessarily in the way companies fear for reasons other have already stated.

ced1106 wrote:
Injection molding is still cheaper and faster, and it also improves in its technology as 3D printers get better.

This, is one area prototyping I keep an eye on is developments in lower-cost/limited run injection mold tools that are actually printed.
It could open up the availability of more mini companies doing some plastics with less initial investment costs/losses, while not an at-home printer could be sourced more locally.
At the moment it'd only be a few dozen, and quality are more suited for terrain and vehicles than infantry, but those dozen would be more consistent than calibrating between each individual print. Likewise depending on the demand for them, a company may either get more tools printed, or taking the leap into traditional metal tooling.

Another thing will be the availability of more multi-material/color printer services, similar to the ones shapeways has invested in recently.
Rather than thinking of printing cheaper but exact copies of exist models, instead create some custom bits that can't be- or rather would be more complicated/costly to make in existing traditional methods. For instance single-part count-as gauss rifles that don't need assembling because the pick-your-color(s) tubes and rifles already come together, translucent creatures where you see their guts inside, crystal aliens/ghosts that incorporate spaces for small LEDS to be installed without a dremel, etc. If anything I can see larger existing companies partnering with similar services and bring back bit-ordering or doing seasonal "limited" edition stuff.

I don't foresee a rush for quality consumer-grade printers as they don't solve a problem most consumers have.
They're more suited for improving/providing short cuts to particular hobbies and manufacturing areas; like more affordable custom prosthetic parts for amputees, who like modelers are only a small fraction of the overall population, but would make up a chunk of people who would use that tech to the full advantage.

I agree that 3D printers for the hobbyist to print minis are years away from happening. I use mine to print mostly terrain type items and larger stuff and find it to totally suit my needs right now.

Sure, I wish it was more foolproof and faster, better details, etc. but, you work within the confines of your machine and with a little tinkering, all worked out good for me.

However, if I could simply print any mini I wanted in the detail I wanted, then I probably would buy very few kits. If we ever get there, believe me, GW will still design and sell the STL files and printed versions to those not having or wanting to print - they are not going anywhere as long as the desire for their product exists.

Well I took a baby step today and stopped in the library's maker lab.

Doesn't seem too too hard but if there are spaces like this where I can get the work done for a few bucks that would certainly work better.

It will be PVC which I understand cannot be spray painted, anyone know how they take paint?

Also what glue?

Super glue works for 3d printed stuff and if you're worried about PVC taking spray paint, a coat of testor's dullcote or krylon low odor matte work great on PVC to prepare it to take paint. Brushing on the type of primers that stick to soft plastic figures work well on everything 3d painted as well. Acrylic Gesso or Vallejo Surface Primer (you can airbrush that on as well) would probably be a good way to go. Or the equivalent from other brands like the badger stynylres or whatever it's called.

I can't see home 3d printing ever being so popular as to eliminate mass manufacturers altogether. After all, home 2d printing hasn't killed book publishing and bookstores.

The question is will it take enough business to make some types pf rane unviable?