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Hi everyone,

So with the upcoming release of the Skorpius Dunerider we (the AdMech players) have of course been wildly speculating on the uses of this vehicle, and one of our worries is that it only transports <Forge-World> (as in "Chapter" or "Regiment") models. It should be a weird thing to worry about considering every transport works just fine with these keywords, but it's a problem in the case of the Secutarii models from FW - especially the Hoplites as they're CC units, because they have a special rule, quoted in spoilers below, that prevent them from having this <Forge-World> keyword like the rest of the codex:



This rule is probably there as a fluff reason, but even then it doesn't make much sense for reasons I won't dally on here, and heavily handicaps them, as they're effectively prevented from benefitting from almost every aura ability, <Forge-World> specific stratagems (so no mobility coming from these), and Warlord Traits. Only the Omniscient Mask relic as well as the general Codex stratagems can support them.

I've already sent them an email a few minutes ago but I'm encouraging AdMech players to send an email asking for changes, even at the cost of a model that is 1 pt more expensive or something. Aside from fixing the Secutarii and by the same way our mess of a codex, I suggest telling them that it will boost the sales of both the Secutarii and the Skorpius when people will notice how good they fit together. I know this because I'll certainly do with 2x10 Hoplites in a Skorpius each myself.

Thanks for reading and feel free to suggest ideas or arguments I might have missed.

Omnissiah bless your dice !

I highly doubt that the sales of the Skorpius would be noticeably impacted in the unlikely event they implemented your suggestion.

yeah forge world is a small scale premium thing. assuming that peoiple won't buy X from GW because of Y unit from FW is silly.

Would be nice though if FW changed but it will be of little consequence if they didn't as electro priests fill the CC role quite well.

There's no point emailing Forge World about it, since they don't write the 40k rules. Email GW, since it's the 40k studio that'll be doing any revised rules for forge Wiorld Mechanicum models.

In the case of the models you refer to in the OP, though, that might not help. Those troops are deliberately not part of the Skitarii forces, they're instead troops of the titan legions. You're basically asking for Astra Militarum units to be allowed the Ultramarines keyword.

Should be thankful that you arent required to have a Titan in order to field them at all.

Forgeworld is currently non-functional and there is no point in trying to push them into anything.

Because forget doing stuff right, at the moment they are not doing stuff AT ALL.
Not a single thing in FW's 40k range went past the index stage yet, and heck not all things even GOT to the index stage, some just outright been neglected.

The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

<cries in Triaros Armoured Conveyer>

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

Yeah, but how many of those are still in use by the Mechanicus?

The book calls out a lot of the Legio Cybernetica stuff as being associated with the Dark Mechanicus.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

Yeah, but how many of those are still in use by the Mechanicus?

The book calls out a lot of the Legio Cybernetica stuff as being associated with the Dark Mechanicus.

So give us Dark Mechanicus rules. I for one would be happy for my Ordo Reductor army to take the field again, even under the Eye. We might retain the secrets of phosphex that way.

And/or do the same thing they did with Marines and give the loyalists and the traitors the same models with slightly different rules/give the loyalists the Relic rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Forgeworld is currently non-functional and there is no point in trying to push them into anything.

Because forget doing stuff right, at the moment they are not doing stuff AT ALL.
Not a single thing in FW's 40k range went past the index stage yet, and heck not all things even GOT to the index stage, some just outright been neglected.

Contemptor-Achillius, Caladius, Coronus, and Telemon out of the Custodes have been iterated on, I'd call their current rules post-Index stage.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Forgeworld is currently non-functional and there is no point in trying to push them into anything.

Because forget doing stuff right, at the moment they are not doing stuff AT ALL.
Not a single thing in FW's 40k range went past the index stage yet, and heck not all things even GOT to the index stage, some just outright been neglected.

FW does things. Just not 40k since GW took that work from them and GW has zero motivation to make rules for resin models usable by players. They want players to spend money instead on the plastic that has higher profit rate than resin. As such don't expect anything with resin to have playable rules. Not as long as the profit driven GW is in charge of it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

Yeah, but how many of those are still in use by the Mechanicus?

The book calls out a lot of the Legio Cybernetica stuff as being associated with the Dark Mechanicus.

So give us Dark Mechanicus rules. I for one would be happy for my Ordo Reductor army to take the field again, even under the Eye. We might retain the secrets of phosphex that way.

And/or do the same thing they did with Marines and give the loyalists and the traitors the same models with slightly different rules/give the loyalists the Relic rule.

But you wouldn't be fielding "the same things" as your Ordo Reductor. That's the problem people seem to have understanding.

The Mechanicus, post-Heresy, destroyed these things in the Imperium. There's no "relics" to be found or fielded--this stuff is just flat considered Heretek.
The Dark Mechanicus has tinkered with or been unable to prevent their stuff from getting corrupted. It wouldn't be the same as what left.
Look at the Vulturax->Greater Blight Drone to see what I'm talking about.

To be honest, they need to crack on with rules for stuff like Ordinaitus first.

£300, gathering dust.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

Yeah, but how many of those are still in use by the Mechanicus?

The book calls out a lot of the Legio Cybernetica stuff as being associated with the Dark Mechanicus.

So give us Dark Mechanicus rules. I for one would be happy for my Ordo Reductor army to take the field again, even under the Eye. We might retain the secrets of phosphex that way.

And/or do the same thing they did with Marines and give the loyalists and the traitors the same models with slightly different rules/give the loyalists the Relic rule.

But you wouldn't be fielding "the same things" as your Ordo Reductor. That's the problem people seem to have understanding.

The Mechanicus, post-Heresy, destroyed these things in the Imperium. There's no "relics" to be found or fielded--this stuff is just flat considered Heretek.
The Dark Mechanicus has tinkered with or been unable to prevent their stuff from getting corrupted. It wouldn't be the same as what left.
Look at the Vulturax->Greater Blight Drone to see what I'm talking about.

Nothing says your army has to be from the current timeline. You could have an army set in the pre/currently heresy era. Your army could have been wibbly wobbly warp shenanigans into the future.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

Yeah, but how many of those are still in use by the Mechanicus?

The book calls out a lot of the Legio Cybernetica stuff as being associated with the Dark Mechanicus.

So give us Dark Mechanicus rules. I for one would be happy for my Ordo Reductor army to take the field again, even under the Eye. We might retain the secrets of phosphex that way.

And/or do the same thing they did with Marines and give the loyalists and the traitors the same models with slightly different rules/give the loyalists the Relic rule.

But you wouldn't be fielding "the same things" as your Ordo Reductor. That's the problem people seem to have understanding.

The Mechanicus, post-Heresy, destroyed these things in the Imperium. There's no "relics" to be found or fielded--this stuff is just flat considered Heretek.
The Dark Mechanicus has tinkered with or been unable to prevent their stuff from getting corrupted. It wouldn't be the same as what left.
Look at the Vulturax->Greater Blight Drone to see what I'm talking about.

1) Since when was any bit of the Imperium "unable to prevent their stuff from getting corrupted"? Chaos Dreadnaughts have been turned into bizarre warp-corrupted heretek machinery, some of which repairs itself by eating the souls of the things it kills, but the Imperium still operates equivalent machines to all of those. Not to mention that the battle-automata are far from the only things in the 30k Mechanicum; the Krios and Triarios chassis are just tanks, the process of making Thallax is described almost identically to the process of making Sicaran Infiltrators/Ruststalkers, Myrmidons are a caste of tech-priests carrying weapons the Imperium absolutely still uses (bolters, volkites, grav-guns, plasma, conversion beamers), the Reductor artillery vehicles are still in service with the Guard...

2) I'm aware of the Vultarax->Blight Drone connection, but Chaos in general and the Dark Mechanicum specifically builds/uses plenty of stuff that isn't covered in fleshy growths. The Hellforged tanks still look like their Imperial equivalents (only spikier), and the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend and Heldrake are purely mechanical horrors. And tell me a unit of spiky Ursarax waving Maulerfiend-style combat mechadendrites doesn't sound awesome.

3) The Mechanicum handles innovation with extreme caution and at a glacial pace, but they do modify hardware (see: 40k units that weren't around during the Heresy but are tweaks on existing platforms), and they don't throw out STC data that they can still use. Outside the issue of the Legio Cybernetica (which is in dispute) the Mechanicum has never deliberately decided to stop building anything; they've lost STC data due to Forge Worlds going traitor (Xana and the Hell Blade), they've lost STC data due to individuals having a breakdown and destroying the database (Phosphex, which led to the execution of the guy who destroyed the data), and they've cut back on experimental designs to focus on things they can make more of more efficiently (focusing on the Predator over the Sicaran for the Legions), but as far as I know all the Chaos-only units were developed independently post-Heresy by Dark Mechanicum Forge Worlds and are heresy because they were designed using forbidden engineering. The Castellax is a pre-Dark Age robot that was manufactured in large numbers on every Forge World and served as the backbone of the Mechanicum's armies; to my mind declaring the entire STC file heretical would be completely out of character, the STC file is far too widespread to have been lost or destroyed, and while practical concerns may have led to reductions in production there's no good reason to have stopped building them entirely or taken them all out of service.

4) Consider Stygies. This is a "loyalist" Forge World that gets excommunicated by the Mechanicum proper all the time for forbidden experiments with xenotech. If you need someone to reopen the file on darklight weapons (reverse-engineered DE blasters/dark lances)...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I highly doubt that the sales of the Skorpius would be noticeably impacted in the unlikely event they implemented your suggestion.

Well if even just 200 people buy these two packs that's more than none I guess, although sure is won't make them filthy rich.

Beersarius Drawl wrote:Would be nice though if FW changed but it will be of little consequence if they didn't as electro priests fill the CC role quite well.

Sure Fulgurites are great and will benefit from it nicely, but the keywords being different, the possible combos and strategies are different too. Their point cost are different too, with 90 pts for 10 Hoplites whereas you pay 160 pts for 10 Fulgurites. And furthermore, a little more diversity in a codex doesn't hurt.

AndrewGPaul wrote:There's no point emailing Forge World about it, since they don't write the 40k rules. Email GW, since it's the 40k studio that'll be doing any revised rules for forge Wiorld Mechanicum models.

In the case of the models you refer to in the OP, though, that might not help. Those troops are deliberately not part of the Skitarii forces, they're instead troops of the titan legions. You're basically asking for Astra Militarum units to be allowed the Ultramarines keyword.

Yes I got an answer today from FW telling me they've forwarded the mail to the FAQ address, I wasn't sure at first to be honest. I sent it again to the FAQ address to be sure.

But Secutarii ARE Skitarii, they're Skitarii, look like Skitarii and have the Skitarii keyword. Do you see <Titan Guard> on their datasheet ? Titans aren't a faction, so I disagree on your comparison with Astra Militarum wanting to be Ultramarines.

the_scotsman wrote:The privilege of someone's FW admech models having rules at all and having the AUDACITY to complain that they're terrible...damn.

There are starving mechanicum units that would eat those rules you want to throw out!

I guess it's true that having a burning car is better than having no car at all, I understand your statement and I'm eagerly waiting for Fires of Cyraxus too. However, it's not because I have barely developped rules for two units that it's forbidden to complain about them, just because other models don't have rules at all. I know your last sentence is a joke, but it's not because we Europeans aren't dying of hunger and civil war that we can't have issues too. I'm not comparing the gravity of those cases but I hope I'm being clear

EDIT: Last time I was outraged at something and made a call here for support was because the Terrax Drill couldn't be used by AdMech, and the rules got changed accordingly shortly after. So who knows ? All they need to do is change a PDF and publish it, I'm hardly asking for a new army or codex. This won't cost them and will only benefit everyone.

I for one would love to WoM 80 Peltast shots, or have -1 to hit on my Hoplite screens...

It should be noted that the Peltast / Hoplite kit is an upgrade kit, not a unique model, so they do sell more plastic skitarii kits.

 Aaranis wrote:
But Secutarii ARE Skitarii, they're Skitarii, look like Skitarii and have the Skitarii keyword. Do you see <Titan Guard> on their datasheet ? Titans aren't a faction, so I disagree on your comparison with Astra Militarum wanting to be Ultramarines.

The correct comparison is between Primaris and non-Primaris Marines.

Both have "Adeptus Astartes", just like Secutarii have "Skitarii", yet you for some inexplicable and entirely unknown reason, they cant share transports.

Well, a logical explanation would be that the marine transports are designed with tight-fit holders that the marines stand/sit in, and primaris armor just does not align properly with the old designs.
I mean, its a lousy excuse-but it actually happens in real life sometimes that there is just no backwards compatibility when you design something new due to simple geometry issues.

All I know is I've been sending annoyed emails to GW for 3 editions now wanting to know why the heck IG sergeants can't take lasguns but the one time I said "hey why can't stormtroopers with vox casters and banners take lasguns" they fixed it in like a week.

So who knows at this point. It doesn't hurt to ask. Hell it finally got us a transport.