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No idea why they are trying to give the tank asymetric guns. They would look much better, if it was two of the same. But maybe it is just me, I hate it when when colours don't match or halfs look different.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: No idea why they are trying to give the tank asymetric guns. They would look much better, if it was two of the same. But maybe it is just me, I hate it when when colours don't match or halfs look different.
Yeah, a Repulsor with 2 turret- mounted Plasma Exterminators or Laser Destroyers would look awesome.
Karol wrote: No idea why they are trying to give the tank asymetric guns. They would look much better, if it was two of the same. But maybe it is just me, I hate it when when colours don't match or halfs look different.
Yeah, a Repulsor with 2 turret- mounted Plasma Exterminators or Laser Destroyers would look awesome.
If some of the internet roumer are true, that is what's likely coming along later as the primaris replacement for the predator.
But all I can say is damn do I expect these to be seriously points heavy, I suspect some people are in for a shock when these are costed by GW.
Karol wrote: No idea why they are trying to give the tank asymetric guns. They would look much better, if it was two of the same. But maybe it is just me, I hate it when when colours don't match or halfs look different.
Yeah, a Repulsor with 2 turret- mounted Plasma Exterminators or Laser Destroyers would look awesome.
If some of the internet roumer are true, that is what's likely coming along later as the primaris replacement for the predator.
But all I can say is damn do I expect these to be seriously points heavy, I suspect some people are in for a shock when these are costed by GW.
I'd be shocked if the chassis ends up more expensive than the base Repulsor. Extended transport capacity for Astartes vehicles has historically been exactly as expensive as increased weapon options (see Rhino and Razorback; Land Raiders).
Ice_can 775880 10462198 wrote:
If some of the internet roumer are true, that is what's likely coming along later as the primaris replacement for the predator.
But all I can say is damn do I expect these to be seriously points heavy, I suspect some people are in for a shock when these are costed by GW.
Well then why not mount only a single gun in the turret? It would look better, be more symetric and would mean the whole thing doesn't cost 260+pts.
But again asymetrical thing irks me on a physical level. Took me years to stop myself from trying to fix other people cloths or hair to be symetric.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
I love the repulsor and this looks ace too. Last thing I wanted was a basic transport, it would only ever be a flying rhino and cost a lot of money. What I wanted was a dedicated battle tank. And that is what we have here, with a wee bit of transport too.
It looks awesome and will do a nice job for me in my primaris only army. It’s an auto buy.
Andykp wrote: I love the repulsor and this looks ace too. Last thing I wanted was a basic transport, it would only ever be a flying rhino and cost a lot of money. What I wanted was a dedicated battle tank. And that is what we have here, with a wee bit of transport too.
It looks awesome and will do a nice job for me in my primaris only army. It’s an auto buy.
From what we can see on the sprue the Executioner can't have the twin Lascannons on the hull, and without it the Heavy Laser Destroyer is going to have to be better that a Battlecannon under Grinding Advance for the Executioner to be a better MBT than the base Repulsor (all other things being equal).
Not saying that won't be the case, but it seems unlikely.
It would still have to be better than the battle cannon by about half!
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/05/30 14:49:25
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Also - from that picture this new tank seems to be significantly smaller than the repulsor both shorter and thinner. That should come with a wounds reduction and point savings. If we can put these babbies on the field for under 230 points. They will be a bargain.
Where are you getting that from? The pictures in the community article look like it's exactly the same hull as the regular Repulsor.
I could be wrong. The turret might just be much larger than the repulsor but I think the hull is less wide on this new variant. Also the rear side hull section appears to be a little shorter.
2019/05/30 15:22:47
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They flat-out lost a sale from me when I saw that sprue image. The fact the "tank-destroyer" Repulsor has fewer tank destroying weapons than the regular version boggles the mind.
You don't know what the cannon does yet.
If it ends up being a Heavy D6 laser cannon at S10+ and AP-4+ with some kind of special rule, then you might be more apt to want it.
2019/05/30 15:38:10
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They flat-out lost a sale from me when I saw that sprue image. The fact the "tank-destroyer" Repulsor has fewer tank destroying weapons than the regular version boggles the mind.
You don't know what the cannon does yet.
If it ends up being a Heavy D6 laser cannon at S10+ and AP-4+ with some kind of special rule, then you might be more apt to want it.
If it's anything close to those sort of stats and the points will be massive.
Or it will be the points people say and no better than a repulsor firepower.
Or GW will make it a repulsor + in points with repulsor levels of firepower and reduced transport capacity.
Personally I think the people saying it's going to have to have an invulnerable save are dreaming, but if it does that'd would be the most blatant version of rules creep since the Castellen.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/30 19:54:00
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
Repulsors can fly, -2 to charges, and carry plenty of anti-infantry fire power. With Bobby nearby to intervene I don't think you're getting spectacularly far with melee.
Andykp wrote: I love the repulsor and this looks ace too. Last thing I wanted was a basic transport, it would only ever be a flying rhino and cost a lot of money. What I wanted was a dedicated battle tank. And that is what we have here, with a wee bit of transport too.
It looks awesome and will do a nice job for me in my primaris only army. It’s an auto buy.
From what we can see on the sprue the Executioner can't have the twin Lascannons on the hull, and without it the Heavy Laser Destroyer is going to have to be better that a Battlecannon under Grinding Advance for the Executioner to be a better MBT than the base Repulsor (all other things being equal).
Not saying that won't be the case, but it seems unlikely.
Yeah but looks the part, and to me it’s already won right there. And we don’t know the rules yet. Yes it is a bit of a shame no twin las on the sprue and it seems only down to lack of space, like there doesn’t seem to be an option for the rear AA turret either. But for me it’s all on the looks of it right now and I like it. I’m a fan of the repulsor and I like the bigger turret, and I like mixed load outs now that we can split fire again. I know I’ll be in the minority here but looks beat maths every time.
2019/05/31 02:59:53
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
In order to outperform a base Repulsor's weapons complement, the Heavy Laser Destroyer needs to be at least S9, AP3, and have a minimum potential damage roll of 4d6 [IE, if it has 1d6 damage per shot, it needs to make at least 4 shots]. We can also inform some of it's characteristics from the macro plasma incinerator, it's alternate weapon option.
The Macro Plasma Incinerator is Heavy 1d6, S9, AP4, D2. This is somewhat, slightly, better than 2 Lascannons. With a Grinding Advance-like property [which isn't unlikely, given it's common on most factions' main battle tanks, but isn't a given either since the Repulsor Executioner is half-transport and it's not universal to all tanks or main battle tanks], this breaks even, which isn't saying a lot and doesn't bode well.
Anyway, informed by the Macro Plasma Incinerator's 1d6 shots, I don't think we can expect the Heavy Laser Destroyer to have more than Heavy 1d3 shots. It's got to be appreciably less than the Macro Plasma Incinerator. Here's the problem though: outside of Forgeworld weapons and those mounted on titanics, GW has avoided giving things better than 1d6 of damage even if they fire only a single shot, to the general detriment of every special AT weapon in the game [Railgun and Vanquisher, especially].
Where does that leave us for the Heavy Laser Destroyer? Not in a good place. The best we can probably hope for is Heavy 1d3, S10, AP4, D3d3 with Grinding Advance; the worst is Heavy 1d3, S9, Ap3, D1d6, and the probable is closer to the worst than the best.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/05/31 10:39:03
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
Repulsors can fly, -2 to charges, and carry plenty of anti-infantry fire power. With Bobby nearby to intervene I don't think you're getting spectacularly far with melee.
Rereading my comment it comes off a bit snide not really my intention.
But I agree for the most part that any list with repulsors has to go first to stand a chance, and I find I need a librarian to buff one to T9.
I'm hoping that in SM 2.0 they buff the chassis with either rules or point drips. (but I find this highly unlikely since Chaos got a new book and not much changed, marines are still 13ppm so I don't see Primaris dropping more)
As for the heavy laser destroyer, going off of the forgeworld laser destroyers barring invulns then the Executioner will be able to point and delete a vehicle. Just depends on what Heavy does to the weapon, like extra damage or strength or shots
2019/05/31 10:54:28
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
Repulsors can fly, -2 to charges, and carry plenty of anti-infantry fire power. With Bobby nearby to intervene I don't think you're getting spectacularly far with melee.
Rereading my comment it comes off a bit snide not really my intention.
But I agree for the most part that any list with repulsors has to go first to stand a chance, and I find I need a librarian to buff one to T9.
I'm hoping that in SM 2.0 they buff the chassis with either rules or point drips. (but I find this highly unlikely since Chaos got a new book and not much changed, marines are still 13ppm so I don't see Primaris dropping more)
As for the heavy laser destroyer, going off of the forgeworld laser destroyers barring invulns then the Executioner will be able to point and delete a vehicle. Just depends on what Heavy does to the weapon, like extra damage or strength or shots
Which forgeworld laser destroyers do not allow invulnerable saves?
Nevelon wrote: Sometimes you pay a premium for the opportunity to mount more guns. Rhinos and Razors cost the same before guns, despite the difference in capacity.
I’d bet the same is going to happen here.
Then we can expect the naked car being 185pts. Just hope the big laser destroyer not being priced at 100pts for 2D6 shot S10 AP-4 D6dmg garbage. Because then this tank will never survive to fire a single shot and it is just a dead weight.
@Ice-can: I'm pretty sure Fraser meant "FW Laser Destroyers consistently delete vehicles that don't have invulns", not "FW Laser Destroyers ignore invulns".
I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/31 12:02:33
The Newman wrote: I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
2019/05/31 17:55:21
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
Repulsors can fly, -2 to charges, and carry plenty of anti-infantry fire power. With Bobby nearby to intervene I don't think you're getting spectacularly far with melee.
Oh jezz I've played this match so many times. Repulsors drop like flies to eldar firepower. Plus spears moving 44" in a turn means you can't do dick to stop them from charging your preditors without some really silly deployment shenanigans that will end up losing you the game because you can't even hold an objective. Predators might as well not even exist as a unit they are so trash. The vindi trick is actually better and cheaper to pull off anyways. I saw this guys army though - it looks great. I assumed he lost every game but this is a dice game. A castellan stands a good change to wipe his armor in 2 turns only.
The Newman wrote: I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
Yeah...not sure why some tanks can shoot twice and some cant lol. Like if predators could shoot 4 las from their turret they would start to be good. However it would make every other iteration of a lascannon a waste because it's not as good as 4 LC for the price of 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 17:57:13
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/05/31 20:21:46
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
The Newman wrote:@Ice-can: I'm pretty sure Fraser meant "FW Laser Destroyers consistently delete vehicles that don't have invulns", not "FW Laser Destroyers ignore invulns".
I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
I wouldn't say it's off the table. It's not likely either, since the Repulsor is half-transport, but they could apply it if they're going for MBT. The Leman Russ didn't start with it, but GW observed that tank guns were not very good, having about the same effect as a Lascannon, and patched it in when the codex came out. The Predator could have had it, though first-codex strikes there, since there would have been no time for feedback. You can see that all over the SM codex, and SM derivatives haven't had any effort made to fix them because then they'd have to patch all the dataslates in like 9 books.
To some degree, MBT's that have one big tank gun have it, [Leman Russ, Fire Prisom, Gunwagon, Exocrine, Tyrannofex]. The Doomsday Ark and the Hammerhead are the exception, thought the Doomsday Cannon was flat increased from D3 to D6 shots with it's codex IIRC, and it already has a stationary fire mode. The hammerhead presumably lacks it because the Riptide has Nova-Charge, and Tau have gone all in on anime-robots.
The Repulsor could get it, since the Gunwagon is also half-transport, and it is similar to the rest of those in having one big gun in a turret mount rather than a giant cluster of bazookas strapped together. I wouldn't say it's a sure thing, though, just not off the table.
I'm hoping that it has a gun worthy of being a tank gun, and doesn't have Grinding Advance. That isn't going to happen though, so a crappy gun and Grinding Advance is the best we can hope for, especially given that we know the Plasma Cannon's stats.
Ice_can wrote:Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
I agree, Grinding Advance is a lame patch over the fact that GW initially released tank guns as being no more powerful than an infantry-carried shoulder-fired bazooka. Since that just doesn't work, and rather than fixing the problem by fixing the guns to perform more in line with how they should, they just figured that people wanted to use Leman Russes, so they'd path just that unit and move on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 20:23:57
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/05/31 20:54:10
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
The Newman wrote:@Ice-can: I'm pretty sure Fraser meant "FW Laser Destroyers consistently delete vehicles that don't have invulns", not "FW Laser Destroyers ignore invulns".
I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
I wouldn't say it's off the table. It's not likely either, since the Repulsor is half-transport, but they could apply it if they're going for MBT. The Leman Russ didn't start with it, but GW observed that tank guns were not very good, having about the same effect as a Lascannon, and patched it in when the codex came out. The Predator could have had it, though first-codex strikes there, since there would have been no time for feedback. You can see that all over the SM codex, and SM derivatives haven't had any effort made to fix them because then they'd have to patch all the dataslates in like 9 books.
To some degree, MBT's that have one big tank gun have it, [Leman Russ, Fire Prisom, Gunwagon, Exocrine, Tyrannofex]. The Doomsday Ark and the Hammerhead are the exception, thought the Doomsday Cannon was flat increased from D3 to D6 shots with it's codex IIRC, and it already has a stationary fire mode. The hammerhead presumably lacks it because the Riptide has Nova-Charge, and Tau have gone all in on anime-robots.
The Repulsor could get it, since the Gunwagon is also half-transport, and it is similar to the rest of those in having one big gun in a turret mount rather than a giant cluster of bazookas strapped together. I wouldn't say it's a sure thing, though, just not off the table.
I'm hoping that it has a gun worthy of being a tank gun, and doesn't have Grinding Advance. That isn't going to happen though, so a crappy gun and Grinding Advance is the best we can hope for, especially given that we know the Plasma Cannon's stats.
Ice_can wrote:Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
I agree, Grinding Advance is a lame patch over the fact that GW initially released tank guns as being no more powerful than an infantry-carried shoulder-fired bazooka. Since that just doesn't work, and rather than fixing the problem by fixing the guns to perform more in line with how they should, they just figured that people wanted to use Leman Russes, so they'd path just that unit and move on.
Space Marines just aren't in a good spot at the moment due to the shakeup of Primaris.
Games Workshop was damned either way they did this. As I understand it, lots of people wanted true-scale marines.
Games Workshop was left with two choices: 1. Squat the entire existing line and release an entirely new line of models, tanks, characters and rules. 2. Hybrid the release of the new models, putting the entire faction into an awkward place. Neither choice was optimal, and we know which one they chose, likely based off the lessons learned from the re-branding and launch of AoS.
Now, in terms of this new forthcoming tank, we're faced again with two issues. Many people don't want to mix their models. I can't stand it when I see a table of mixed Primaris and squats now, it literally makes me feel ill. Primaris are lacking pretty much everything outside of the basic troop and character role, but design space is likely limited. So they splurged and mixed two units into one.
Here is the thing though, at least as I think about this.
What is the # of shots and S of this new gun? Why couldn't this lasercannon be S12+? Heavy D6? Heavy 4?
2019/05/31 21:28:34
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Are repulsors competitive? Are Primaris competitive?
Someone made it to top 8 of LVO with 2 and Gulliman and 3 predators
Ehhh - If the list goes first it has a good chance to blow up most of the threats to the repulsors. Still though...vs shinning spears and Castellans and Tzangor bombs (this is basically the only thing I saw at LVO) you couldn't possibly take a worse army.
Repulsors can fly, -2 to charges, and carry plenty of anti-infantry fire power. With Bobby nearby to intervene I don't think you're getting spectacularly far with melee.
Rereading my comment it comes off a bit snide not really my intention.
But I agree for the most part that any list with repulsors has to go first to stand a chance, and I find I need a librarian to buff one to T9.
I'm hoping that in SM 2.0 they buff the chassis with either rules or point drips. (but I find this highly unlikely since Chaos got a new book and not much changed, marines are still 13ppm so I don't see Primaris dropping more)
As for the heavy laser destroyer, going off of the forgeworld laser destroyers barring invulns then the Executioner will be able to point and delete a vehicle. Just depends on what Heavy does to the weapon, like extra damage or strength or shots
Which forgeworld laser destroyers do not allow invulnerable saves?
"Barring invulns", in other words provided they don't have an invuln
A laser destroyer is Heavy 1 S12 Ap - 4 D6 damage
If this weapon successfully inflicts damage, roll an additional D6. On a 3-5 damage is increased to 2d6, on a 6 damage is 3d6
I hope the heavy laser destroyer is this but with more shots, most likely D3
2019/05/31 22:44:49
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
The Newman wrote:@Ice-can: I'm pretty sure Fraser meant "FW Laser Destroyers consistently delete vehicles that don't have invulns", not "FW Laser Destroyers ignore invulns".
I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
I wouldn't say it's off the table. It's not likely either, since the Repulsor is half-transport, but they could apply it if they're going for MBT. The Leman Russ didn't start with it, but GW observed that tank guns were not very good, having about the same effect as a Lascannon, and patched it in when the codex came out. The Predator could have had it, though first-codex strikes there, since there would have been no time for feedback. You can see that all over the SM codex, and SM derivatives haven't had any effort made to fix them because then they'd have to patch all the dataslates in like 9 books.
To some degree, MBT's that have one big tank gun have it, [Leman Russ, Fire Prisom, Gunwagon, Exocrine, Tyrannofex]. The Doomsday Ark and the Hammerhead are the exception, thought the Doomsday Cannon was flat increased from D3 to D6 shots with it's codex IIRC, and it already has a stationary fire mode. The hammerhead presumably lacks it because the Riptide has Nova-Charge, and Tau have gone all in on anime-robots.
The Repulsor could get it, since the Gunwagon is also half-transport, and it is similar to the rest of those in having one big gun in a turret mount rather than a giant cluster of bazookas strapped together. I wouldn't say it's a sure thing, though, just not off the table.
I'm hoping that it has a gun worthy of being a tank gun, and doesn't have Grinding Advance. That isn't going to happen though, so a crappy gun and Grinding Advance is the best we can hope for, especially given that we know the Plasma Cannon's stats.
Ice_can wrote:Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
I agree, Grinding Advance is a lame patch over the fact that GW initially released tank guns as being no more powerful than an infantry-carried shoulder-fired bazooka. Since that just doesn't work, and rather than fixing the problem by fixing the guns to perform more in line with how they should, they just figured that people wanted to use Leman Russes, so they'd path just that unit and move on.
Space Marines just aren't in a good spot at the moment due to the shakeup of Primaris.
Games Workshop was damned either way they did this. As I understand it, lots of people wanted true-scale marines.
Games Workshop was left with two choices: 1. Squat the entire existing line and release an entirely new line of models, tanks, characters and rules. 2. Hybrid the release of the new models, putting the entire faction into an awkward place. Neither choice was optimal, and we know which one they chose, likely based off the lessons learned from the re-branding and launch of AoS.
Now, in terms of this new forthcoming tank, we're faced again with two issues. Many people don't want to mix their models. I can't stand it when I see a table of mixed Primaris and squats now, it literally makes me feel ill. Primaris are lacking pretty much everything outside of the basic troop and character role, but design space is likely limited. So they splurged and mixed two units into one.
Here is the thing though, at least as I think about this.
What is the # of shots and S of this new gun? Why couldn't this lasercannon be S12+? Heavy D6? Heavy 4?
I've said this already, but:
It can't be Heavy 1d6 because the Plasmagun option that's already been established as the multi-target weapon is heavy 1d6, which is why that the best I'm expecting is Heavy 1d3.
In addition, it would have to be S14 or S16 for the appreciable increase in strength to matter vs S9, and even then, it doesn't really matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things if it can't output an adequate amount of damage.
At Heavy 1d3, it needs to have at least 2d6 for it's damage roll to be considered to "break even" with the base Repulsor AT loadout, potentially marginally improved with AP4 or something. However, GW has been extremely skittish about giving anything higher than a 1d6 damage roll short of titantic weapons, to the detriment of tank hunter vehicles across the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 22:45:12
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/06/01 01:45:27
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
The Newman wrote:@Ice-can: I'm pretty sure Fraser meant "FW Laser Destroyers consistently delete vehicles that don't have invulns", not "FW Laser Destroyers ignore invulns".
I think we can pretty safely assume that Grinding Advance isn't on the table, no Marine vehicle has that rule. We get Machine Spirit instead, and inconsistently at that.
Grinding Advance wouldn't even fit the Marine fluff all that well, no matter how much it would help the Predator and the Vindicator.
I wouldn't say it's off the table. It's not likely either, since the Repulsor is half-transport, but they could apply it if they're going for MBT. The Leman Russ didn't start with it, but GW observed that tank guns were not very good, having about the same effect as a Lascannon, and patched it in when the codex came out. The Predator could have had it, though first-codex strikes there, since there would have been no time for feedback. You can see that all over the SM codex, and SM derivatives haven't had any effort made to fix them because then they'd have to patch all the dataslates in like 9 books.
To some degree, MBT's that have one big tank gun have it, [Leman Russ, Fire Prisom, Gunwagon, Exocrine, Tyrannofex]. The Doomsday Ark and the Hammerhead are the exception, thought the Doomsday Cannon was flat increased from D3 to D6 shots with it's codex IIRC, and it already has a stationary fire mode. The hammerhead presumably lacks it because the Riptide has Nova-Charge, and Tau have gone all in on anime-robots.
The Repulsor could get it, since the Gunwagon is also half-transport, and it is similar to the rest of those in having one big gun in a turret mount rather than a giant cluster of bazookas strapped together. I wouldn't say it's a sure thing, though, just not off the table.
I'm hoping that it has a gun worthy of being a tank gun, and doesn't have Grinding Advance. That isn't going to happen though, so a crappy gun and Grinding Advance is the best we can hope for, especially given that we know the Plasma Cannon's stats.
Ice_can wrote:Grinding advance is a bad band aid solution that is downright broken on punisher commander Russes and makes every other tank look teribad.
A repulsor will have machine spirit, I dont see it having half the main weapon sats peopke are dreaming up, i suspect that it will be much like the normal one underwhelming but still playable.
I agree, Grinding Advance is a lame patch over the fact that GW initially released tank guns as being no more powerful than an infantry-carried shoulder-fired bazooka. Since that just doesn't work, and rather than fixing the problem by fixing the guns to perform more in line with how they should, they just figured that people wanted to use Leman Russes, so they'd path just that unit and move on.
Space Marines just aren't in a good spot at the moment due to the shakeup of Primaris.
Games Workshop was damned either way they did this. As I understand it, lots of people wanted true-scale marines.
Games Workshop was left with two choices: 1. Squat the entire existing line and release an entirely new line of models, tanks, characters and rules. 2. Hybrid the release of the new models, putting the entire faction into an awkward place. Neither choice was optimal, and we know which one they chose, likely based off the lessons learned from the re-branding and launch of AoS.
Now, in terms of this new forthcoming tank, we're faced again with two issues. Many people don't want to mix their models. I can't stand it when I see a table of mixed Primaris and squats now, it literally makes me feel ill. Primaris are lacking pretty much everything outside of the basic troop and character role, but design space is likely limited. So they splurged and mixed two units into one.
Here is the thing though, at least as I think about this.
What is the # of shots and S of this new gun? Why couldn't this lasercannon be S12+? Heavy D6? Heavy 4?
I've said this already, but:
It can't be Heavy 1d6 because the Plasmagun option that's already been established as the multi-target weapon is heavy 1d6, which is why that the best I'm expecting is Heavy 1d3.
In addition, it would have to be S14 or S16 for the appreciable increase in strength to matter vs S9, and even then, it doesn't really matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things if it can't output an adequate amount of damage.
At Heavy 1d3, it needs to have at least 2d6 for it's damage roll to be considered to "break even" with the base Repulsor AT loadout, potentially marginally improved with AP4 or something. However, GW has been extremely skittish about giving anything higher than a 1d6 damage roll short of titantic weapons, to the detriment of tank hunter vehicles across the game.
Well, I'm just curious. Why can't both weapons be 1D6?
2019/06/01 02:00:13
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
