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 nurgle5 wrote:

bouncingboredom wrote:

The whole narrative thing has only come along more recently as a way to sell books.

How do you define 'recently'? Big narrative events happening in 40k's "present" were a thing when I started playing back in 2000.

Ah, so you joined just as the setting stagnated.

On release in 1987, the "present" in 40k was 40,987. It advanced roughly in real time until 1999, when the setting was at 40,999. After that they just added more events happening at once or crept ever closer to midnight at the end of the millennium (first 999000.M41, then 999900, then 999990 and then 999999.M41, which is the last 8 hours of the 41st millennium).

Ishagu wrote:There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it.

Yes and no. It depends on people you regularly play with etc. So for example if you find yourself opposite a regular Ultramarine player with Guilliman then you're going to have a hard time mentally dodging around that narrative. To another point, It's entirely possible to sell books and write exciting and interesting stories without having to juggle the whole setting each time.

nurgle5 wrote:How do you define 'recently'? Big narrative events happening in 40k's "present" were a thing when I started playing back in 2000.

They used to have big events, but they didn't really change the setting. It might be a campaign over a certain world that ends up falling to chaos, but by and large the overall background narrative stayed fairly static.

Apple fox wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

I like change in settings, most of the settings I deal with in games change. I just think GW kinda meh at it, things like the primarchs could have been more interesting but I do not think as a whole they have been done particularly well. And some of it has been rather tragic. Some of it was good, and some of it was ok but still introduced things into the setting I dislike.
Some of that is my interests being different, but it’s also that I am interested in the setting and I am finding it so dull as of late.
Also I am a narrative player, ignoring the narrative tends to just leave me ignoring the entirety of 40k.

Can you describe what wasn't done well and why, and exactly why you think it falls beyond the typical standard of 40k fiction? I find the general lore perfectly acceptable, but many of the new BL novels have been exceptional at fleshing things out in detail, and have been suitably grim.

There are plenty of holes you can pick in the lore, plenty of silly things that have stood for years. I find most complaints to be subjective, but those who make them state them as if they were facts or absolutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bouncingboredom wrote:

Ishagu wrote:There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it.

Yes and no. It depends on people you regularly play with etc. So for example if you find yourself opposite a regular Ultramarine player with Guilliman then you're going to have a hard time mentally dodging around that narrative. To another point, It's entirely possible to sell books and write exciting and interesting stories without having to juggle the whole setting each time.

That's a very particular, local problem. If you're facing the same list over and over again in your personal social group, it's on you to comment on this. No one likes facing the same list time and time again, but you could have made the same complaint for years with any number of characters like Abaddon, Ahriman, Mephiston, the Swarmlord, etc

if facing Guilliman somehow breaks your immersion, can't you write a story around facing off against a false Primarch - something which actually happened prior to the current events?

Talk with your opponent, discuss your armies. No reason why you can't arrange a specific type of game at a local setting.

AndrewGPaul wrote:

Ah, so you joined just as the setting stagnated.

On release in 1987, the "present" in 40k was 40,987. It advanced roughly in real time until 1999, when the setting was at 40,999. After that they just added more events happening at once or crept ever closer to midnight at the end of the millennium (first 999000.M41, then 999900, then 999990 and then 999999.M41, which is the last 8 hours of the 41st millennium).

I can't recall exactly when GW rowed back on Medusa V and Eye of Terror, but it would've been post 2007, so I got a few years in before the timeline ground to a halt!

bouncingboredom wrote:They used to have big events, but they didn't really change the setting. It might be a campaign over a certain world that ends up falling to chaos, but by and large the overall background narrative stayed fairly static.

Now, to be fair, something doesn't have to change the whole setting to count as a narrative development. Armageddon set up a new conflict for players to set their games in. On Medusa V characters from the background like Ygethmor were killed. Eye of Terror was pretty huge, or at least it would have been had the timeline not been reversed in its aftermath.

Reversed? No, it just stayed where it was.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Reversed? No, it just stayed where it was.

Medusa V was set post Eye of Terror.

(nevermind; I should have done my research first)

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.

 nurgle5 wrote:
Now, to be fair, something doesn't have to change the whole setting to count as a narrative development. Armageddon set up a new conflict for players to set their games in. On Medusa V characters from the background like Ygethmor were killed. Eye of Terror was pretty huge, or at least it would have been had the timeline not been reversed in its aftermath.

I think it's fine to do narrative development for the characters. Where you run into problems is when the entire universe starts getting shifted about on a massive scale. 40K is only about thirty years old. They could for example have tried playing out the narratives in something close to real time, which explains why the over arching narrative never really shitfs much (it would even play into the idea of the Imperium for example as a slow, cumbersome organisation).

It's a bit like the WHFB issue. They could have switched to a skirmish game and done a lot of things with it without having to blow the entire world up. The problems with GW's story telling structure were in evidence throughout the WHFB run as well, as they struggled to create new and vibrant heroes and instead tried to push these big campaigns that ultimately came to nothing.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.

no it's not. it has eventys in it pre-black crusade but the story is distinctly post black crusade, with the climax being something mentioned off hand in the new post GS fluff in the core book fluff

I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.

Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.

Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.

Because with the setting change came lots of new models. Which really is awful because that really messes with the balance so the game gets worse on 2 fronts.

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.

Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.

Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.

how has anything in the setting been removed. outside of old crons lore, because as cool as terminator the army. it was boring AF and doubled up on the nids which is also lame.

 Desubot wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.

Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.

Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.

how has anything in the setting been removed. outside of old crons lore, because as cool as terminator the army. it was boring AF and doubled up on the nids which is also lame.

Better than the boring crazy senile old men army. The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.

The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.

pm713 wrote:
The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.

The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.

How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation is the same as unknown flesh killing machine faction with no real known motivation the same as saying Chaos space marines with its many different factions, beliefs, structures, powers and motivation, the same as one strick blue boi army with spikes?

also not sure how the tau and eldar progressing is suddenly a removal of a key concept in the setting.

additionally while yeah primarchs are a thing again (and naturally its girlyman ) there is also the big space rift causing MAJOR problems so its not like the threat level decreased. if anything it increased. and non of that "removed" anything

yes things have significantly changed but the setting is still oh gak code brown from every conceivable angle.

 Desubot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.

The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.

How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation is the same as unknown flesh killing machine faction with no real known motivation the same as saying Chaos space marines with its many different factions, beliefs, structures, powers and motivation, the same as one strick blue boi army with spikes?

also not sure how the tau and eldar progressing is suddenly a removal of a key concept in the setting.

additionally while yeah primarchs are a thing again (and naturally its girlyman ) there is also the big space rift causing MAJOR problems so its not like the threat level decreased. if anything it increased. and non of that "removed" anything

yes things have significantly changed but the setting is still oh gak code brown from every conceivable angle.

Well they're both superhumans who can swing wars with just their presence, created by the Emperor in power armour. That's how being reductionist works.

Because one of the original points of the Tau was that they weren't galaxy spanning powers and the Eldar went from having a variety of attitudes from rebuilding their Empire to just surviving to GW just going LOOK YNNARI ARE THE SAVIOURS OF EVERYONE LOOK LOOK!

The giant space rift is very meh. Cawl has massive amounts of Marines +2 lying around so any losses it created didn't change much, the idea of planets being removed from communicating with the wider Imperium/supplies/support isn't really affected. Everywhere was already in isolated little pockets and the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

In some ways they're better. Before Chaos Marines generally had an edge over an average Marine because they'd have more experience and whatever advantages Chaos gave them. Now there's no situation in which the Marines+2 aren't better than the enemy and there's no reason for oldmarines to exist.

GW could have done things in a much more interesting way but here we are.

 Desubot wrote:


How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation

Except the oldcrons had a motivation. Seal off the material world from the warp so the C'tan can feed on living creatures in peace. That was the necron endgame.
They weren't just metal tyranids. They were genocidal, but not in the sense of consuming everything like a swarm of locusts, more in the sense of locking humans and xenos alike in pens so the C'tan can consume them and torment them as they will. They were more like Dark Gods of Order (as opposed to Dark Gods of Chaos) rather than metal nids.
Tyranids just want to eat you and move on. The C'tan want to make you into cattle so they can continue to eat you for generations

Not many people get that. I don't blame them; the codex doesn't spell it out for you and you have to read it page from page, the little stories too, especially the very last page which details what would happen if the C'tan ultimately win. Not to mention that the better parts about the fluff, such as Inertialess Drives and Flayed Ones, aren't even in the codex; Inertialess Drives are from Battlefleet Gothic, and the lore on Flayed Ones is from a mid-2000s white dwarf.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except the oldcrons had a motivation. Seal off the material world from the warp so the C'tan can feed on living creatures in peace. That was the necron endgame.

And it was sooo cool.

Somewhere I also got the impression that the Gauss Flayers (and other weapons) pulled apart the target, atom by atom, drew the "life force" pf the target into the guns, and later that was transmitted into space by the Pylons, and collected to feed to the sarcophagi on board orbiting starships. Necron invasions were just harvesting life-force because their gods liked the taste of it.

pm713 wrote:
the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.

Yeah, the C'tan's desire to eat life-force is pretty dark too; they don't eat people because they have to, they eat people because they want to.
This is again different from the nids, who have to constantly eat in order to maintain their fleets.

It sucks. The writers have lost almost all of their talent. Age of Sigmar plus post-Gathering Storm 40k is definite proof.

Because one of the original points of the Tau was that they weren't galaxy spanning powers and the Eldar went from having a variety of attitudes from rebuilding their Empire to just surviving to GW just going LOOK YNNARI ARE THE SAVIOURS OF EVERYONE LOOK LOOK!

The giant space rift is very meh. Cawl has massive amounts of Marines +2 lying around so any losses it created didn't change much, the idea of planets being removed from communicating with the wider Imperium/supplies/support isn't really affected. Everywhere was already in isolated little pockets and the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

In some ways they're better. Before Chaos Marines generally had an edge over an average Marine because they'd have more experience and whatever advantages Chaos gave them. Now there's no situation in which the Marines+2 aren't better than the enemy and there's no reason for oldmarines to exist.

ok first of all, the Tau having the ability to go further from home is a change that was NEEDED.the low travel radius of the Tau was a problem as it basicly locked GW into the eastren fringe for any events involving the Tau, which could be problematic. Secondly as for the Edlar, they STILL have a varity of attitudes, the Ynnari are just yet one more new one. Not every eldar is aboard the Ynnari train. as for the great rift and marine losses not mattering this isn't exactly a change.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Nothing would make me happier than for Guilliman to die in the next campaign book.

Haters gonna hate.

Truth be told, he probably will be returned to a death's door stasis sooner or later. Maybe he'll take a nap in a hidden area of Fortress Macragge only the Watchers in the Toga know about. But the current theme appears to be returning the Primarchs for that "face of the franchise" model that also gives them a monstrous creature visual to compete with the Daemons for demigod on the board. We're going to see the rest of the Traitor Primarchs that are aliveas well as at least some of the loyalist ones. Potentially even some that are thought dead will have it be revealed their deaths were faked. Or they'll be brought back to life. But then this cycle will fade, and be replaced by another one, probably returning all the Primarchs to fiction only. 30K and Forgeworld has shown GW that people want to play with the Primarchs, so they're going to make a come back. But past experience has also shown that Hero Hammer tends to give way to Show Me the Trooper.

I fully believe we're going to see Russ, Johnson, Fulgrim, and Angron relatively shortly. I expect we'll also see Lorgar, and a returned from the Dead Sanguinius, along with another loyalist or two. I wouldn't be surprised to see all but a couple return. I don't think Horus makes a come back. I'm not sure Ferrus does either. The Purged and the Forgotten have never been here to return, obviously and will remain Choose your Own Adventure Chapter material. Well, I should say that's the plan I believe they're working on I'm not sure they'll get all the way through it before they decide to move away from the gigantic centerpiece model and go back to trying to feature the squad of ordinary dudes being the heroes. This is the pattern GW follows. 2nd Edition was Hero Hammer. Your big bad special character was taking on entire squads, tanking Lascannons, and heroically defending that Tactical squad from the Chaos Land Raider bearing down on them. Then the dark times, the 3rd edition. Terminators were nerfed so hard they're still bad, and characters, both special and not, were afraid of flashlights.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.

Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.

I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.

pm713 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.

Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.

I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.

They're not going to have the huge explosion. That'd be an Age of Sigmar reboot, and I hope to God they learned their lesson on that one. you can be locked in an 8x8 cell or you can be under house arrest unable to leave your home except for groceries. You're pretty much imprisoned either way. Chaos can be stuck in the Eye of Terror, unable to get out, or they can be stuck along the rift seperating the two halves of the Imperium, they're stuck either way. The Imperium can struggle to contain Chaos in the Eye, or they can struggle to contain Chaos in the rift... See? Its all semantics. GW controls what happens, and they're going to control it into a stalemate where its just a matter of scale.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.

no it's not. it has eventys in it pre-black crusade but the story is distinctly post black crusade, with the climax being something mentioned off hand in the new post GS fluff in the core book fluff

I've read it. The main meat of the book is set pre 13th Black Crusade (There are several whole chapters referencing this, such as the meeting with Morty on the plague planet (who even says Girlyman's resurrection has not happened yet and got confused due to how time flows in the warp) and the mass gathering of the Chaos fleets awaiting the arrival of Abby's flagship). Then it goes into the attack on Ultramar system. None of this happens after Girlyman resurrects (or is happening at the same time). It leads into the "present" of 40k with the sequel presumably taking place there.

Breton wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:
the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.

Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.

Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.

I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.

They're not going to have the huge explosion. That'd be an Age of Sigmar reboot, and I hope to God they learned their lesson on that one. you can be locked in an 8x8 cell or you can be under house arrest unable to leave your home except for groceries. You're pretty much imprisoned either way. Chaos can be stuck in the Eye of Terror, unable to get out, or they can be stuck along the rift seperating the two halves of the Imperium, they're stuck either way. The Imperium can struggle to contain Chaos in the Eye, or they can struggle to contain Chaos in the rift... See? Its all semantics. GW controls what happens, and they're going to control it into a stalemate where its just a matter of scale.

That's kind of the problem. They spend ages building to something they now can't do. As a setting it worked. As a story it doesn't. It's just as dumb as AoS just less badly written.

There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.

pm713 wrote:


There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.

You mean the Chaos that's trying to fight it's way out of the rift with the Imperium on both sides? They're using WWII Germany for inspiration. They let Chaos out of their Eye, and now they're trying to fight the Allies on the Eastern and Western Fronts.

Breton wrote:

pm713 wrote:


There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.

You mean the Chaos that's trying to fight it's way out of the rift with the Imperium on both sides? They're using WWII Germany for inspiration. They let Chaos out of their Eye, and now they're trying to fight the Allies on the Eastern and Western Fronts.

Except the Imperium can't go into the Rift at all. But the Chaos forces can and they don't need to go around it. They have a massive advantage in manoeuvrability and should be able to move from where they are to winning. The only reason they haven't is because that would end things and GW can't do that. They wrote themselves into a corner and the only way forwards is to retcon or keep piling on the stupid.

Don’t think the setting is ‘lighter’, just a different colour black.