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I have a Weirdboy and use Tellyporta in every match and I still find myself facing the opponent's relatively fresh gunline (I maybe inflicted a couple wounds, while moving to melee) with my Orks who have been shot to oblivion. Even Da Jumping units, or flanking or tellyporta, opponents just Fall Back and erase the unit that charged them with their gunline. Even Unstoppable Green Tide has been quite underwhelming.

"You bring your 2000 points of Marines and I will bring 500 points of Orks, if I can set up on your forces. We can skip the first two or three turns, this way." This is how games feel. Then again, I am such a fatalist that I do not feel it is even worth setting up the army because of the effort involved with setting up and removing a hundred or so minis. It takes for ever and is a waste of time. I have to buy how many of units of boys and gretchin WITH THE EXPECTATION OF THEM DOING NOTHING BUT EATING WOUNDS? I feel pretty ripped off. YEs, I am aware it is a horde.army, I was not aware that melee is such a gak-show waste of time. I have ZERO motivation to paint anything but characters and vehicles, which makes me feel like a.piece of gak when someone shows up with a beautifully painted army.

Having to rely upon bypassing movement in order to have a shot at getting a unit in range to charge is a glaring sign that the system is flawed.

"The game feels tailored for shooting armies and punishes melee ones."

I almost want to charge people to play against me. If I am going to lose and they are going to have a great time scoring all the wounds and I am stuck feeling like an impotent pile of gak loser, why can I not get something for my time?

Bugger...

While it it is impossible to say what you are doing wrong from so little information, it appears you have fallen into the trap of thinking Orks are just a close combat horde army. They are a lot more than that.

So in propa-orky fashion, I say it sounds like you need to bring more dakka.

THIS IS 100% WYSIWYG

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Clan Kultur: No Clan

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Warboss: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Follow me Ladz!, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord

Weirdboy: 4. Fists of Gork, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead

+ Troops +

Boyz: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz:
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 17x Ork Boy W/ Shoota

+ Elites +

Nobz:
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga

Painboy: Power Klaw

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: No Clan

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Big Mek in Mega Armour: Grot Oiler, Kombi-Rokkit, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw

Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump

+ Troops +

Gretchin:
. 20x Gretchin

Gretchin:
. 20x Gretchin

Gretchin:
. 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Meganobz:
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kombi-Rokkit, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

Tankbustas:
. 7x Tankbusta: 7x Rokkit Launcha
. Tankbusta w/ Pistols: Pair of Rokkit Pistols

+ Fast Attack +

Warbikers:
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Warbiker: 4x Stikkbombs

Wartrakk (Index):
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dread:
. Deff Dread: Big Shoota, Big Shoota, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk: Big Shoota

++ Total: [110 PL, 12CP, 1,996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Yeah, it looks like you're focused on CC presence to the exclusion of any sort of ranged ability. This can work if the map you play on has enough LOS-blocking terrain, but since you said you're getting shot to oblivion in Turn 1, I'm guessing there's not a lot of places to hide for you. With so little good ranged options, you're gonna suffer. In fact, against a list with a large Flyer population, you're pretty much guaranteed a loss. You're gonna want more ranged units.

Alternatively, consider pushing more into a "greentide" list. Your three units of Boyz can and will be massacred, but 150-180 Boyz will probably be too much for your opponent to effectively deal with. You definitely need a Kultur for your detachments are well. For CC focused, I'd recommend Evil Sunz, for more reliable charges.

While its generally appears that this edition does favor shooty armies over choppy ones, it's also supposed to favor horde's over elites so at least you've got that going for the green tide.

Maybe its the missions you're playing? If you can flood the board with Orks for 3-4 turns before the other guy can get out of his deployment zone you've probably already decided a game where progressive scoring matters.

Or perhaps its just a case of a more casual approach while the other dude is running more competitive builds? I've played a handful of extremely fun and close games with one of the newer guys in our club by toning down my list, last game I wanted to try a more competitive build (having just painted up some models for an event) and honestly regret it. It was by far the worst game we've had and despite him trying to be a good sport; neither of us enjoyed it much. Which really drove home the point of having to play at a similar 'competitive level' as overall things are not closely balanced. I'm not very knowledgeable on Orks ,but before the latest FAQ they seemed to be able to compete fairly well. Maybe checking some tournament lists for new combinations or inspiration to get that extra punch would be helpful?

Last thing I can think of is see if anyone else has a melee centric force that would like to see some table time? Any Nids, BA, Templars, Demons, Harlequins around that wouldn't mind getting into a slugfest?

Hope you can get a good game or two in and regain some of the motivation for painting your WAAAGH!

Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.

Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)

I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)

At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.

I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have fought Harlequins and could not break their saves and got roundly decimated. They were in my deployment zone turn 1, as well.

BA can go feth themselves. I do not care that it was over 5 years ago that it happened, but I am NEVER playing against a Blood Angels player ever again.


I have had some close matches, I can not not say that. Not every game has been a wash, just most of them. I have had fun moments in games, as well. Just, by the end of the opponent's turn 2 I have so little left that even capping objectives is trouvlesome. Orks just do not have the saves that other forces do. And if GW wants us to be fielding 150+ Boyz in our lists, the could they at least give us equal numbers of legs and torsos in the Boyz box? Maybe double the number of Boyz in a box? I am still feeling pretty ripped off (and poor, let us not forget that I am starving myself to be able to have an activity that is not "sitting alone and berating or beating myself")

 General Malarky wrote:
Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.

Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)

I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)

At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.

I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.

Finishing first deploying units has nothing to do with going first or second. Are you using the most updated rules?
Also, which missions are you playing? Castled ranged lists have the advantage on being the last one standing, but have a huge handicap when there are progressive scoring objectives around, so if you are using the last published missions you should be easily winning a lot of games against those kind of lists.

We normally just roll for Eternal War missions. Simple and casual.

 General Malarky wrote:
We normally just roll for Eternal War missions. Simple and casual.

Which eternal war missions? The ones from the rulebook? Because those are famous for being hugely stacked against melee armies.

The only advice I can give is go evil sunz for easier deep strike charge (and 3"/turn makes a difference!) and to get some mek gunz. Otherwise yeah, welcome to orks. We suck...

fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!

So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?

 General Malarky wrote:
Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.

Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)

I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)

At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.

I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have fought Harlequins and could not break their saves and got roundly decimated. They were in my deployment zone turn 1, as well.

BA can go feth themselves. I do not care that it was over 5 years ago that it happened, but I am NEVER playing against a Blood Angels player ever again.


I have had some close matches, I can not not say that. Not every game has been a wash, just most of them. I have had fun moments in games, as well. Just, by the end of the opponent's turn 2 I have so little left that even capping objectives is trouvlesome. Orks just do not have the saves that other forces do. And if GW wants us to be fielding 150+ Boyz in our lists, the could they at least give us equal numbers of legs and torsos in the Boyz box? Maybe double the number of Boyz in a box? I am still feeling pretty ripped off (and poor, let us not forget that I am starving myself to be able to have an activity that is not "sitting alone and berating or beating myself"

Both your gaming perspective (subjective but nobody plays to lose)/list building are awful (don't take it as an insult):

1) Goff is literally the worst chapter tactic you could pick here. No explanation needed. EVERY single chapter tactic out there would improve your list by a considerable margin.
2) Adding models to gretchins is a horrible decision by itself: you're taking them for CPs and the moment you put more than 10 models in the unit you're worsening the CP per Point ratio and also making yourself pretty much vulnerable to any Leadership test (if any, considering they're T2 6+).
3) Tankbustas are awful for their cost, just go Lootas if you want to shoot reasonably well at most targets. Also 48" > 24" is a much safer shooting condition to achieve.
4) You either go for 20 Orks in a Battlewagon or 30s on field. 20 on field do not accomplish anything and pretty much istantly lose their 20+ models bonus to ANYTHING that looks at them.
5) Single Deff Dread and 5 Warbikes are worthless. You either go with multiples to achieve tactical saturation or you do not play them at all.
6) A Trukk is there for either Meganobz or Nobz: are you trying to Put the other unit in reserve coming turn 2? I wouldn't do it if I weren't Evil Sunz at all.

It sounds like I am an idiot and delusional. Status quo maintained, I suppose.

As was said, for what you want to achieve, Goff isn't a great Kultur. Hell, you aren't even using any Goff exclusives (Mad Dok, Ghaz, Skar Boyz) which are 90% of the reason to use the Kultur. That said, I don't think your list is terrible. It just isnt competitive. You lack Dakka, and the meta is not friendly to lists with little to no ranged presence.

And as others have said, try using different mission/objective packs.

 General Malarky wrote:
fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!

So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?

Do yourself a favor and find the missions from CA18, it will really help in turning the tables against ranged armies.

 General Malarky wrote:

I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential,

So what? Track down old models you like better or just scratch build your own.

 General Malarky wrote:
as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided.

This shouldn't be a factor. Think about what/who you're actually facing & take the gun that'll help you deal with that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Malarky wrote:
fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!

So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?

Oh no, you have. To start with.

But GW is in the business of always trying to sell you something more. More models, more books, terrain, misc stuff, etc They always have been & always will be.
To that end they've continued to publish more missions in the Chapter Approved books. So guess what you need to track down. And come about November they'll put out another CA volume....

You're hitting on a lot of the right ideas and you're doing some things spot on. You've got a great base of Troops, your HQ choices are solid and you're aiming for the right stratagems.

If those are all of the models you own you've got the beginnings of a very solid collection but it's going to be difficult to build a synergistic list if you try to include all of it at once. I would say that the main issue is you're playing 2000 point games when what you've actually got is two coherent 1000/1250/1500 point lists. If possible, while you're building your collection, I would ask to play smaller point games. Having a large collection, as many other gamers have, is a huge advantage in that you can build multiple types of synergistic lists.

Here's a rough example of what I might do at lower points levels with the models you have



About 1000 points. Tellyporta 2 Boyz squads, deploy the third out of range/line of sight of enemy units and then da jump it turn 1 if it looks like a good idea, or turn 2 when your Tellyporta units arrive. Use Grots to camp backfield objectives, spread them out to deny deepstrike space and use them to protect characters. Aim to use Get Stuck In, Endless Greentide and Orks is Never Beaten stratagems. Use auto-pass morale if a unit overextends away from Warboss and gets shot to bits The unit of Boyz deployed on the board fuel the Weirdboy to enhance his da jump cast. If the enemy has snipers you must deploy da jump Weirdboy out of range/LoS, of that's not possible you need more terrain or to take da jump on the other Weirdboy too. A proper in-your-face melee list that can hide from enemy firepower in the early game and hopefully overwhelm from turn 2. For a larger game add in the unit of Nobz/Meganobz and Tellyporta them as well, or alternatively hide them at the back of the board turn 1 and da jump. You can always swap the sluggas for shootas in this list.



That's a bit over 900 points, can add to it whatever - a Tellyporta Deff Dread, more Warbikers etc. Plan would be Tellyporta Mega Nobz, embark Nobz in Trukk, deploy everything under KFF. Of.you go second deploy defensively out of range/line of sight of as many guns as possible and utilise your superior speed to counter attack. Warbikers, Skorchas and shoota boyz can advance turn 1 to clear screens if necessary or those fast vehicles can not advance and instead charge into a squishy/vulnerable unit. Boyz can instead be deployed defensively like the first list, at the back of the board ready to be da jumped.
___

You've got a really aggressive list but it's always worth keeping in mind you don't need to deploy as close to the enemy as possible. With da jump, Tellyporta and Evil Sunz Kultur you've got a lot of options of play defensively and still end up being the offensive player, if that makes sense, it might just not be on turn 1. Sometimes it's worth delaying the bulk of your attack until turn 2 by simply not being in the firing line.

If you are going to continue expanding your collection you might try done better results with adding some shooting units. A Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek and some Lootas would be a great place to start.

I'll also add that the Chapter Approved 2018 Maelstrom missions are a much better and more balanced way of playing the game, that alone would make things much more interesting.

Spoletta wrote:

 General Malarky wrote:
fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!

So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?

Do yourself a favor and find the missions from CA18, it will really help in turning the tables against ranged armies.

The tweak in that works like this, so feel free to throw this into the classic missions. All the 2018 missions use it so it's kind of a fix rather than an add on, as the missions themselves are very different.

Set up terrain and deploy objectives.
Both players roll a dice, winner picks deployment map and deployment zone.
Loser then deploys their army.
Winner then deploys their army
Whoever finishes deployment first (!) goes first - unless the enemy seizes.

So you should know what you're getting into. Infiltrators get you ground and a buffer, but might cost you the initiative if the enemy is moving on in force rather than reconnoitring the various fronts.

There is a lot - I repeat a LOT - of depth to close combat. It's really tricky to get right, and requires some tricky tactics, an awareness of the game state and objectives, and knowing where you want to be. Here's some fantastic tricks:

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF CLOSE COMBAT:
"With rare exception, never put your models in base to base contact with the enemy."

The reason for this is that so long as your models aren't in base to base contact, you can use the rules to gain extra movement for your models by ensuring they end closer to your opponent's models than before, even if that move takes them on a merry-go-round path closer, meaning that in actuality you gained almost all that extra distance just by piling in and consolidating. Most of the tricky tactics listed below will require this extra movement. The only time you DO want to be in base to base contact with the enemy is to deny your opponent the chance to do the exact same thing.

#1 - "Pinning" units;
- Requirements; an enemy model can be surrounded on 3 sides after you're done your attacks.
- Action: When you're done making your attacks, if you have 3 models that can surround an enemy model on three sides (forming an equilateral triangle), you can "pin" your opponent's model there. That model can now not leave combat, because any move they take would be through your models, which they're not allowed to do (unless they can jump over them with Fly or the like).
- Result: Your super powered close combat unit now is 100% safe from shooting. So long as you kill your opponent's unit in their turn, you're just laughing.
- Countering: If you keep your models close enough together such that enemy models can't surround them, then any path that is as big as at least one of your models can allow the whole unit to escape. Generally you need a line of models that are 2 ranks deep. A very savvy general can try to purposefully fail their morale test by enough so that they can remove the pinned models from the unit in order to escape.

#2 - Pile into units that you won't be fighting.
- Requirements: A second nearby enemy unit, and enough models that you will be able to maintain squad coherency.
- Action: When declaring the targets of a charge, purposefully don't declare a second unit as your target, but send models towards them anyways. Your intention at the very least should be to "tag" the unit such that the unit won't be able to shoot when they leave combat, whilst you take minimal retaliatory attacks, but it's amazing when you can achieve Tactic #1 and pin that unit. Since you didn't declare them as a charge, you can't attack them (though you must still pile in and consolidate towards them - remember, that's 6 extra inches of movement if you don't touch their bases!), and they can still attack you - but you're guaranteed to not accidentally kill the model that you're trying to pin.
- Countering: Again, make sure your units can't be pinned. If there's a lot of space between your units, your opponent will have to lose a lot of potential attacks in order to maintain squad coherency to spread out so far between units. This is also where having a nearby character that can Heroically Intervene is especially useful to help scare off these types of assaults.

#3 - Activate units that charged, even if they don't have anyone to fight.
- Requirements: A unit that charged that hasn't fought yet (or, spend the 3CP stratagem to "fight again"), but that already has the target of their charge slain.
- Action: Activate the unit. Use your pile in and consolidate moves to get closer to somewhere better. You get 3" pile in, and 3" consolidate. Try to pin or tag another unit like this, grab an objective, or get into cover. Sometimes you might do it just to put another unit in front of a character you put somewhere vulnerable, so now the character can't be targeted by shooting.
- Result: Almost as good as gaining an additional movement phase. Never hurts to play like old school Ynnari!
- Countering: Keep your units far enough away from each other so they don't walk into you afterwards.

#4 - Charges are extra movement.
- Requirements: A large unit of models that will likely make a charge.
- Action: When you charge the unit, you only need to successfully reach at least one model in at least one unit that you declared a charge against, and keep squad coherency. So take advantage of that! Chain up your models so that while, sure, some models get in range to attack an enemy target, the rest might choose to head in the LITERALLY EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Result: Just out of range of an objective with a big squad, but there's an enemy nearby behind you? Don't advance! Charge those suckers after moving! Now the back end of the squad charges towards the objective, and you grab it!
- Countering: Keep a character near where your opponent wants to go so you can heroically intervene if they get too close. Use this to bully your opponent away from zones.

#5 - Heroic Intervention for Bullies.
- Requirements: A unit and a character.
- Action: Put your character behind a model that's the closest one to your opponent's unit.
- Result: If your opponent declares a charge and doesn't roll high enough, they will either have to end their charge within 3" of the character and trigger Heroic Intervention, or they will have to give up their charge.
- Countering: Declare the opponent's character as part of the charge, and end your charge at the edge of the 1" of the target unit. If they want to heroically intervene, they'll have to bring their character closer to you and out of position, and you'll be able to threaten attacks against them too. If you roll high enough just circle around the front and end your charge on a unit's flank outside 3" of the opposing character.

#6 - Charge around corners.
- Requirements: A unit that wants to charge, and a big LoS blocking terrain piece.
- Action: Move your unit such that it is not visible to the unit you want to declare a charge against. You can still declare charges against units that you can't see.
- Result: You won't suffer Overwatch. Great for avoiding auto-hit shooting if your opponent puts their units in the wrong spots. You can even use this to go for extremely difficult charges (10-12" away) just to see if you get there with no real risk, though in this case, always consider advancing if you can instead.
- Countering: Keep your auto-hitting units in locations where potential chargers will have to end within LoS of you before they charge for a safe charge.

#7 - Don't shoot units that you intend to charge.
- Requirements: A unit that you want to charge with, and other shooters within shooting range of that target.
- Action: DON'T shoot that unit! Shoot something else!
- Result: You want to avoid your opponent choosing models that are closer to you. If they kill those models, it increases your charge range, and makes it less likely to get in there.
- Countering: Not much. If the unit that they wish to charge is badly placed, that might trick your opponent into making this mistake, but it sounds like a lose-lose proposition to intentionally put such a unit in that position in the first place.


I think that's most of the big ones. If anyone else has some good tips, let this guy know!

Needs more Boyz.

@Yarium - great post, Kunnin' moves, Brutal intent. Love it.

@General Malarky - I feel your pain. Sounds like my Index games :-) Please, don't spend any more money. It's easier to play your way out of a hole than buy your way-out.

Probably echoing previous posts, but try not to play to your opponents game.

1, Play lower points levels. You can Battalion for around 200pts, leaving 300pts for toys in a 500pt game. Other factions will struggle to keep up with your CP at 500pts, and have fewer points for toys.

2, Terrain. Try to play the "lowest level of terrain always blocks LOS" rule. If they can't see you, they can't shoot you.

3, Kulture. Not Goff. At least go Snakebite and give yourself a 6+++ Save.

4, Index. Big Guns are easy to scratch build, and an instant source of shooty attacks. Also gives your spare Grots something to do other than Die Heroically :-)

5, Missions. Check out the Orc Codex for the faction specific Tactical Objectives. They may suit your play style better.

6, Dice. It never hurts to roll 6's (if you are making Ld rolls, you don't have enough Orks ;-0)

Good luck with your future games, and remember - Orks never lose.

 General Malarky wrote:
Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.

Well if you take inoptimal choices don't be surprised you get beaten. You have no lootas, no mek guns, no souped up shock attack gun but do have big mek in mega armour and top of that take inefficient clan culture. Boyz that are going to be used to deep strike are evil sun. Period.

8th ed is hardly balanced so if you take weak options you'll get massacred.

Also do you 3-point at all? Pretty much mandatory for orks to capture somebody as prisoners to prevent fall back.

I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.

Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise.

You say you have no motivation to paint anything but big models and vehicles....why aren't you using any? What possible madness could have convinced you that your only option is to bring a weird jumble of unsupported crap with multiple glaring obvious weakpoints that pretty much any opponent could instantly pick out?

Hmm maybe I should shoot that one, singuler trukk filled with expensive models.

Hmm I have tanks maybe I should kill the tankbustas standing in the open and walking at me.

If you want a green tide list to actually work, you need to present your opponent with nothing but bodies, and if any target is significantly more expensive (say, a big unit of lootas or tankbustas) you need to be prepared to Grot Screen that unit so you need to make sure it's one unit only. Everything in your opponent's army should be pumping into just boyz, preferably boyz with a 5++ and 6+ feel no pain.

But you obviously don't care for a green tide list. So screw it. Run a vehicle focused list then - but then make sure your units are all fast enough to get across the table and hit turn 2 along with your deep strikers.

My ork list typically runs along those lines. What you'll see is:

Evil Sunz brigade with a couple units of 30x boyz, one of which tellyporta deep strikes, one of which hides way in the back behind terrain and gets Da Jumped turn 1, then fill the rest with units of 10x gretchins. Warboss on bike with killa klaw, deffkilla wartrike, and my primary mounted killing units are Nobz with double regular choppas mounted up in trukks and Bonebreakas. Any time I want to bring something slow, like deff dreads, meganobz or a gorkanaut, it goes in the Tellyporta - EVERYTHING is going to hit turn 2, no exceptions, and ideally the Da Jump boyz make up most of the casualties turn 1.

Second detachment is a battalion of Blood Axes (just for Finkin' Kap and the Command Point regeneration trait) with KFF big Mek and weirdboy with da jump, troops are just more 10x gretchin squads. Orks have amazing stratagems and amazingly cheap units in every slot, there is no reason not to maximise your command points.

The Evil Sunz trait is not about moving across the board (though it does help get your transports in range for the turn 2 punch) it's about charging from deep strike range. It takes your chances from approximately 58% to 79% just having that +1 to charge.

Can I use Tellyporta more than once? I thought there were restrictions on using the sqme strategem multiple times in a phase?

I am going to avoid 2000 points battles because they stretch me too "thin" and smaller battles will allow me to take only Boyz and Gretchin, achieving that green tide effect.

If I buy anything more, it will be another "getting started with Orks" kit, for the dread and painboy. I have already spent over $1000 on this hot-mess and I should not have spent so much. Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.

Why take snakebite if I have Painboyz? Why are Goffs even a thing?

What is "3-point"?

I am such a .stupid feth-stain, thinking table top games that have been aeound for decades might have figured out how to do their jobs.

I do not know which of you to listen to and which of you are just donkey-caves.

As always; I am wasting everyone's time and subjecting more and more people to my horsegak problems. Stupid feth.

Tellyporta is used outside of the phase progression, so you *can* use it more than once.

Goffs are a thing because they *can* be useful. Ghaz, Mad Dok, and Skar Boyz are useful, and exploding 6s in CC can make your Dreadz and Naughts hit a lot harder. But they need to be played more carefully than Evil Sunz or Death Skullz. You absolutely need to have enough LOS blocking terrain to be able to get your units into CC without getting slaughtered.

Snakebitez can allow you to skip the Painboyz (and the have the Monster Hunter Stratagem, which is pretty decent), but I agree. I'm not a fan of that Kultur myself.

Just remember that 40k is a strategy game. If you leave your units wide-open and charge mindlessly at your foe, you'll always lose. My suggestion is to keep asking these questions and to keep practicing.

3-point is the method of placing your models around an enemy model, in order to prevent it from escaping CC and protecting your unit from shooting-phase firing (as units cannot fire into CC).

Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.

From personal expiriance, I would say one can only blame oneself for not being smart enough.
Orks are a high cost army, and unlike IG or pre Inari nerf eldar, seem to have very specific unit set ups, which aren't limited to units themselfs, but detachments and kultures you have to use with those units. From what people say around here, they also seem to be sometimes very unforgiving in some match ups. But I do wish you good luck.

In a casual environment I don't thing the Clan he picks is as much of an issue as the miscalculation of equipment.
I was trying to come up with a useful post last night but gave up.
If it were me I would start with dropping the bigshootas frm the boys mobs and possibly 10 grots from one of his 20 strong grot mobs and the war bikers and see what kind of points that give back.
The lack of meaning fun shooting is definitely an issue.
I could go either way on the deff dread. Personally I wouldn't take less than 2 and keep them moving and working together so they can bully something and keep going.
I prefer a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage every time.
As pointed out Mek guns of some kind and maybe Lootas, failing those possibly a Dakka Jet or something like that. Make it dedicated to it's job and give it a simple task.
I did wonderfully well with Burna Bombas and Blitza Bombas last October, the last time I played Orks.
But the Key to most things Ork is you need loads of them, one unit or single model unit will get killed and do very little for you.
Also, you may want to find a way to add 1 or 2 more trukks or failing that a Battle Wagon transport. The list posted has several units that really need to be transported to allow them to live long enough to do anything.
I was planning to play goffs as well just because it's the closest to my last playstyle from the index and requires the least amount of remembering extra shtuff. However a long term goal does involve stacking my list with 2 or 3 clans for a more competitive opponent.
You may want to try playing other missions even Maelstrom of war missions can be a balance against armies that would otherwise auto trash your own.
Good luck !


Edit.

Don't beat yourself up over a messily 1000 bucks.
If I had been smart I would only have owned just 1 army every edition and I started played in 2nd. So 7 armies over 20+ years.
Heck I literally bought an army so one of out power gamers couldn't. (3rd edition Necrons.) I did this because I'm dumb. : And that guy sucks and so on.
If your brand new then you have a huge leg up on me. Remember that there is a second hand market so should you part with your Orks you may find an even trade or at least get some of your money back.
One other thing about list building. After a few games look at your units and what they have in them, big shootas, power Klaws or what ever and ask yourself do I even get to use those items or when was the last time those items even contributed to anything. If they haven't or hardly do then trim them out and refund yourself those points toward something else. For example I have been a big fan of Big Shootas for a long time but last edition I found they no longer had a place in my Sluggga Boys mobs. My Boys were either running or stuck in or dead. I don't even bother with rokkits in those mobs when Tank bustas are just better or there is another platform that can better fill that job. I do like twin Bigshoota war trakks but that's not a unit I use very often anymore.
You may also want to start doing some kind of battle reports for yourself to see if there are any things you continue to do that just aren't working and see where you are doing things right.... and also for the entertainment value.

 General Malarky wrote:
I have a Weirdboy and use Tellyporta in every match and I still find myself facing the opponent's relatively fresh gunline (I maybe inflicted a couple wounds, while moving to melee) with my Orks who have been shot to oblivion. Even Da Jumping units, or flanking or tellyporta, opponents just Fall Back and erase the unit that charged them with their gunline. Even Unstoppable Green Tide has been quite underwhelming.

"You bring your 2000 points of Marines and I will bring 500 points of Orks, if I can set up on your forces. We can skip the first two or three turns, this way." This is how games feel. Then again, I am such a fatalist that I do not feel it is even worth setting up the army because of the effort involved with setting up and removing a hundred or so minis. It takes for ever and is a waste of time. I have to buy how many of units of boys and gretchin WITH THE EXPECTATION OF THEM DOING NOTHING BUT EATING WOUNDS? I feel pretty ripped off. YEs, I am aware it is a horde.army, I was not aware that melee is such a gak-show waste of time. I have ZERO motivation to paint anything but characters and vehicles, which makes me feel like a.piece of gak when someone shows up with a beautifully painted army.

Having to rely upon bypassing movement in order to have a shot at getting a unit in range to charge is a glaring sign that the system is flawed.

"The game feels tailored for shooting armies and punishes melee ones."

I almost want to charge people to play against me. If I am going to lose and they are going to have a great time scoring all the wounds and I am stuck feeling like an impotent pile of gak loser, why can I not get something for my time?

Bugger...

I will echo some other posters and suggest adding Lootas and some Traktor Kannons. Lootas screened by Grots can devastate a gunline themselves, and at a minimum can draw fire away from your Boyz. Traktor Kannons offer an answer against Flyers. So basically what the first response said - More Dakka!

There is also an Ork Tactics thread for insights.

Good luck!

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.

Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise..

Uuh hopefully you have better reason for claiming list would be best in 8th ed than opponent might be surprised.that trick is old as 8th ed so only new players will be surprised. Basing plan on opponent being surprised by staple of orks whole 8th ed is risky

The problem as I see it in your list is you have a very mixed bag of units. it is green tide... but the beuty of a true green tide is being deceptively fast with the jump and such, and it completely negates any points your opponent put into anti tank units. having mega nobz, biggies and a deffdred you are giving up a lot of ork bodies to have a hard targets that will just be blasted away.

Your list imo should drop meganobz, bikers, traxx trukk and megaarmor big mek w/kff and even the tank bustas as your one trukk is DOA and tank bustas are a high profile target.

suggested addins. more boyz, some mek guns kustom mega kannons to deal with thier good anti infantry tanks (if they have them) 3 at 60 points each should be about right at 180 points for 3. I woudl replace big mek in mega armor for a SSAG big mek back with the mek gunz, then bubblewrap the mek guns and SSAG with your gretchin

I would also consider changing painboy to painboy on a bike and warboss to index warboss on a bike so they can for sure keep up and adding 1T and 1W