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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

TheVicousGreyHunter wrote:
I've been thinking about getting the Shadowspear boxset for a while now, and now i'm really thinking about pulling the trigger and getting it. The Space Marines in the boxset are a bit underwhelming to me, but I really like the Chaos that come in the set, so if I getting it I may just end up selling the Space Marines. Any thoughts? And one question how well do the Chaos Daemonkin stack up to other armies in matched play?[/code]

My opinion is no, it is not worth paying for.

I play Black Legion, so the greater posessed, venomcrawlers, the MoP and the CSM squad are functionally useless to me. The only thing I really wanted out of the box were the obliterators.

The CSM squad is horribly configured, and I think from a modeling standpoint, you're better off buying the full kit, rather than the ones from this set. 4 chain swords, 3 bolters an auto cannon, a plasma gun and a pp/chain axe champion is a terrible setup.

From what I can tell the Venomcrawlers are terri-bad, and the MoP can't even really keep pace with deamon engines. They don't get chapter traits, and will mostly just melt to High S High AP fire, and massed horde fire.

I would either wait until Obliterators get a full kit release, or go looking on Ebay for the models you want. But, for the price, it's not worth it.

The MoP is good when you want to build a castle daemon engine list.
Problem is then you also need atleast one or 2 LoD to get enough accuracy and we are allready talking about 500+ pts basically withoutht the dakka Daemon engines, of which the codex has the defiler and the dakkafiend later is to expensive for what it can do sadly. Leaving you with FW, which could make the list workable but workable by no means means decent.

it really depends on what you like.

I like Terminators, Obliterators, Havoks and Abaddon. So my list is primarily composed of those things. I can't even see a use for the greater processed, because possessed are hot garbage to begin with. Buffing them seems pointless.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness the only differance between then and now is we no longer have the hips and torso meet, realisticly it's a pretty minor differance/. with clever use of differant heads, packs and weapons you can keep the variation up fine

Pretty much my opinion too.

I will add that I think many these new kits require basically the same amount of modeling skill as it took to make the old mini-marines actually look different from each other. At a glance I wouldn't be able to see a slight twist/angle of the hips nor a slightly different bolter grip (except for maybe the angle). At table top distances I am no more likely to notice one marine has chest A with legs B and another has Chest B with legs A and so on. Though, I know some people are bothered just knowing they have twins within their army even if they can't be easily identified as such. These kits are plastic and with a little cutting and some gap filling medium it is still possible to get a little more out of them if desired. Ultimately, I only have one box of Shadowspear, so the CSM just get mixed in with the other new CSM which greatly expands the poses of the squads since none of Shadowspear CSM really look like what is in the new CSM box.

As to the OP (even though they seem to have made up their mind), given your criteria I don't think Shadowspear is worthwhile. Maybe after a couple of CAs, but I kinda doubt that too. Outside the Chaos marines, everything seems pretty specialized for missions that aren't typical matched play games. The Primaris marines are pretty much a tacticool SpecOps force that seems like a waste in the more pitched, open battle of typical 40k games. And the Chaos side seem to focus too much on the daemonic keyword to be worthwhile unless that was already the focus of your army. Even then, I don't know exactly how well the execution of that works of the tabletop.

I will say both sides have to good looking miniatures though. The Primaris marines have me slowly building a custom Ultima Founding chapter that has scouts and Primaris but no actual non-Primaris marines. As mentioned, the CSM add a bunch of poses that the new CSM kit don't have.

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

TheVicousGreyHunter wrote:
I've been thinking about getting the Shadowspear boxset for a while now, and now i'm really thinking about pulling the trigger and getting it. The Space Marines in the boxset are a bit underwhelming to me, but I really like the Chaos that come in the set, so if I getting it I may just end up selling the Space Marines. Any thoughts? And one question how well do the Chaos Daemonkin stack up to other armies in matched play?[/code]

My opinion is no, it is not worth paying for.

I play Black Legion, so the greater posessed, venomcrawlers, the MoP and the CSM squad are functionally useless to me. The only thing I really wanted out of the box were the obliterators.

The CSM squad is horribly configured, and I think from a modeling standpoint, you're better off buying the full kit, rather than the ones from this set. 4 chain swords, 3 bolters an auto cannon, a plasma gun and a pp/chain axe champion is a terrible setup.

From what I can tell the Venomcrawlers are terri-bad, and the MoP can't even really keep pace with deamon engines. They don't get chapter traits, and will mostly just melt to High S High AP fire, and massed horde fire.

I would either wait until Obliterators get a full kit release, or go looking on Ebay for the models you want. But, for the price, it's not worth it.

The MoP is good when you want to build a castle daemon engine list.
Problem is then you also need atleast one or 2 LoD to get enough accuracy and we are allready talking about 500+ pts basically withoutht the dakka Daemon engines, of which the codex has the defiler and the dakkafiend later is to expensive for what it can do sadly. Leaving you with FW, which could make the list workable but workable by no means means decent.

it really depends on what you like.

I like Terminators, Obliterators, Havoks and Abaddon. So my list is primarily composed of those things. I can't even see a use for the greater processed, because possessed are hot garbage to begin with. Buffing them seems pointless.

The greater Possessed personally seem to me atleast a buffer for daemon engines. As you stated possessed themselves are still bad, and the models quite frankly ugly. Redeming factor they are a 70 pts beatstick.

The squad of csm is badly equipped.
The MoP is ok too good (it's a chaos sorcerer with some more specific spells)
The newblits are not that hot imo, also their look is iffy to me atleast but getting them off ebay would be best.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness the only differance between then and now is we no longer have the hips and torso meet, realisticly it's a pretty minor differance/. with clever use of differant heads, packs and weapons you can keep the variation up fine

Pretty much my opinion too.

I will add that I think many these new kits require basically the same amount of modeling skill as it took to make the old mini-marines actually look different from each other. At a glance I wouldn't be able to see a slight twist/angle of the hips nor a slightly different bolter grip (except for maybe the angle). At table top distances I am no more likely to notice one marine has chest A with legs B and another has Chest B with legs A and so on. Though, I know some people are bothered just knowing they have twins within their army even if they can't be easily identified as such. These kits are plastic and with a little cutting and some gap filling medium it is still possible to get a little more out of them if desired. Ultimately, I only have one box of Shadowspear, so the CSM just get mixed in with the other new CSM which greatly expands the poses of the squads since none of Shadowspear CSM really look like what is in the new CSM box.

As to the OP (even though they seem to have made up their mind), given your criteria I don't think Shadowspear is worthwhile. Maybe after a couple of CAs, but I kinda doubt that too. Outside the Chaos marines, everything seems pretty specialized for missions that aren't typical matched play games. The Primaris marines are pretty much a tacticool SpecOps force that seems like a waste in the more pitched, open battle of typical 40k games. And the Chaos side seem to focus too much on the daemonic keyword to be worthwhile unless that was already the focus of your army. Even then, I don't know exactly how well the execution of that works of the tabletop.

I will say both sides have to good looking miniatures though. The Primaris marines have me slowly building a custom Ultima Founding chapter that has scouts and Primaris but no actual non-Primaris marines. As mentioned, the CSM add a bunch of poses that the new CSM kit don't have.

also there is a LIIITLE bit of chest variation, not as much as I'd like, and I wish we could get more, but there's some. CSMs are also modular with old style arms heads, and shoulderpads, and (with minimal effort) backpacks. so if you bit box dive you can get some nice looks (I used a MK3 head on one of my CSMs it looks great!)

On the space marine side... a Deep Striking LT isn't bad. The librarian if you have enough other Phobos units isn't bad. Having enough other phobos units might be bad.

I love the infiltrators. They might be a bit spendy over Intercessors though, and will hopefully be repriced down just a bit, especially since they don't have camo cloaks.

The Supressors feel like they're not as cool as they look and are missing their jump packs. Why do the Interceptors need the big bulky pack, but the Supressors do not?

The Eliminators feel pretty solid, but they need to be able to take more than three per unit. The Chaos units are all fairly nice units to have But there's nothing new there either. IF you want more, get the box, if you already have em, pass.

Breton wrote:
On the space marine side... a Deep Striking LT isn't bad. The librarian if you have enough other Phobos units isn't bad. Having enough other phobos units might be bad.

I love the infiltrators. They might be a bit spendy over Intercessors though, and will hopefully be repriced down just a bit, especially since they don't have camo cloaks.

The Supressors feel like they're not as cool as they look and are missing their jump packs. Why do the Interceptors need the big bulky pack, but the Supressors do not?

The Eliminators feel pretty solid, but they need to be able to take more than three per unit. The Chaos units are all fairly nice units to have But there's nothing new there either. IF you want more, get the box, if you already have em, pass.

supressors use anti-grav plates and small thrusters to jump. inceptors FLY.

1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

 Dovis wrote:
1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

This is a rather strange statement considering that the math shows that the newblits are less effective per points somehow.

 Dovis wrote:
1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

1) What does the phobos Lt bring to the table that’s so much better then a stock Lt with a jump pack? While the +1 W/A is nice, being restricted to a so-so gun and sharp sticks for melee is a bit of a drag. "hands down the best HQ in the marine range” is a bit of a tall claim. Not that I think he’s worthless, but he struck me as solidly mediocre. Fieldable, but not winning any awards.

2) I think infiltrators have a solid place in our troop slot. They do screening, board control, and area denial better than the other options. But the lack of access to decent guns makes it so they are not a strict upgrade. They have a niche, and fill it well. They probably cost a point or two more then they should, and don’t do a whole lot more then fill slots and take up space. Both of which are important, but not everything.

(I can’t speak on point 3 as a loyalist)

 Dovis wrote:
1)
2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

I'd dispute this, mostly due to their cost. Most of the time they don't give enough benefit to justify not just taking Scouts. I also think Intercessors situationally edge them out.

 Dovis wrote:
1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

Lets not go overboard.
A non Primaris Lt. can take a jump pack, his master crafted bolter has an always -1 vs the no cover for the Phobos plus access to more/better close combat choices - They're within a couple points of each other meaning its going to come down to the CCW+Speed vs 1W,1A
Infiltrators are amazing, but at 50 points more for a 10 man unit, you're unlikely to fully replace Intercessors and Scout (Snipers) with them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

This is a rather strange statement considering that the math shows that the newblits are less effective per points somehow.

From experience, I can fully say that the new Oblits are worth their points, however you do need to Synergies them.

I went to a tournament with 3 backed up by a Jumplord, a Jump Sorcerer and three Oblits (Mark of Slannesh), all had the AL trait.

Sorc had Death Hex and Prescience.

Dropped them down, added +1 to hit and removed an Inv Save from chosen target. Lord re-roll's 1's.

Cacophony to ensue that something stays dead, or kill even more.

During the tournament they killed:

- IF: One Max Unit of Centurions, a Doredeo, Unit of intercessors (I'm sure they killed more but I just can't remember).

- Chaos Soup: A Doredeo, one unit of 30 Bloodletters and 15 Plaguebearers

-DE: One Max Unit of grotesques, two max units of Talos, and a unit of 10 Wracks.

Sometimes it's better not to just look at the math alone. Refer to the math as a guideline, by all means, but never as a gospel, otherwise prepare to get taken off guard when you see units that by math shouldn't do well, excel in their position.

Breton wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1) Lieutenant in Phobos armor is hands down the best HQ in the marine range - if you hate proxying, then this unit alone warrants the purchase. What I like to do is drop a Leviathan in a drop pod (use strategem for it to act as a captain to give the re-roll 1 to hit) and drop LT in Phobos accompanied by Inceptors with plasmas. That's absolutely devastating firepower and has enough staying power to survive what's left after your onslaught

2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

3) New Obliterators, besides being good models, with the new rules this is the unit that provides one of the heaviest punches for your points you have available to Chaos

All in all, you will likely use most of the stuff on the table, with great effect, and the sculpts are great, so I'd say get it

Lets not go overboard.
A non Primaris Lt. can take a jump pack, his master crafted bolter has an always -1 vs the no cover for the Phobos plus access to more/better close combat choices - They're within a couple points of each other meaning its going to come down to the CCW+Speed vs 1W,1A
Infiltrators are amazing, but at 50 points more for a 10 man unit, you're unlikely to fully replace Intercessors and Scout (Snipers) with them.

I'd agree in a mixed Marine army they aren't anything special, which makes the original statement a bit hyperbolic.

But in the context of a pure Primaris force, which I think is a common and legitimate restriction, they are much more exciting.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:
On the space marine side... a Deep Striking LT isn't bad. The librarian if you have enough other Phobos units isn't bad. Having enough other phobos units might be bad.

I love the infiltrators. They might be a bit spendy over Intercessors though, and will hopefully be repriced down just a bit, especially since they don't have camo cloaks.

The Supressors feel like they're not as cool as they look and are missing their jump packs. Why do the Interceptors need the big bulky pack, but the Supressors do not?

The Eliminators feel pretty solid, but they need to be able to take more than three per unit. The Chaos units are all fairly nice units to have But there's nothing new there either. IF you want more, get the box, if you already have em, pass.

supressors use anti-grav plates and small thrusters to jump. inceptors FLY.

Inceptors are modified Gravis armor, they need all that extra jump pack to not be slower that Suppressors because the square/cube law is a thing that exists if you're not Titanic.

 Stux wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1)
2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

I'd dispute this, mostly due to their cost. Most of the time they don't give enough benefit to justify not just taking Scouts. I also think Intercessors situationally edge them out.

Until your opponent has a Mawlock. Infiltrators are situationally brilliant, which usually goes along with being overcosted.

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1)
2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

I'd dispute this, mostly due to their cost. Most of the time they don't give enough benefit to justify not just taking Scouts. I also think Intercessors situationally edge them out.

Until your opponent has a Mawlock. Infiltrators are situationally brilliant, which usually goes along with being overcosted.

If I'm making a Battalion, Infiltrators are one of my Troop Choices. They're probably not more than one. Its probably Infiltrators, Intercessors, and either a sniper scout squad with camo cloaks or a Tac Squad, preferably with a transport. Probably the sniper scouts. That gets me two forward-deployed longevity-giimmicked squads - the Infiltrators can't easily be Deep Struck, plus have a squad apothecary - that can be pretty irritating to ignore sniping support characters or mortal wounding 6's. But it's hard to find the points I could have used on something else to double up the Infiltrators over the Intercessors, let alone the sniper scouts.

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1)
2) Infiltrators are an upgrade over all other troop choices

I'd dispute this, mostly due to their cost. Most of the time they don't give enough benefit to justify not just taking Scouts. I also think Intercessors situationally edge them out.

Until your opponent has a Mawlock. Infiltrators are situationally brilliant, which usually goes along with being overcosted.

If your opponent has a Mawlock, you have very little worry about. They are a very bad unit!

But yes, situationally Infiltrators are fantastic. If you're playing against Khorne Daemons and they're trying to dump half their army onto you from deep strike into a buffed up charge, Infiltrators are pretty much a hard counter to that army. However if your opponent isn't really using deep strike (eg against most Tau or Guard meta lists, which are pretty common) you would likely have been better with Intercessors or Scouts.

 Stux wrote:
But yes, situationally Infiltrators are fantastic. If you're playing against Khorne Daemons and they're trying to dump half their army onto you from deep strike into a buffed up charge, Infiltrators are pretty much a hard counter to that army. However if your opponent isn't really using deep strike (eg against most Tau or Guard meta lists, which are pretty common) you would likely have been better with Intercessors or Scouts.

It is that situational nature that has me wanting the scramblers to be add-on gear. I want to field them as alternative, or at least supplement, to Intercessors. The current point cost doesn't make it worthwhile unless the deep strike denial is heavily utilized. I think that still would be a point or two per model more expensive, but far more reasonable expense to cover.

I don't know if there is a reasonable cheap enough point cost of the Helix Adept though. I don't see a minimum man squad surviving a round to make much use, at the same time, a full squad seems like a poor use of Infiltrators too. Free would be an auto take obviously, but I think even 5 points could be a strain if I had a special/heavy weapon somewhere else to add.