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That one attack is also about as likely to kill 5 enemy dudes as before. The difference is just less bookkeeping over the fact you might kill 3 or 4 of them instead of 5.

Honestly that’s kinda why I feel this version of Apocalypse is a waste of time: It’s just 28mm epic. If I wanted to play epic I’d either dig up old and third party epic materials or wait to see if they make a new version of epic in Titanicus scale.

If I want to play “slapdash mess of far too many 28mm models shoved onto all the game shop’s tables shoved together”, which in my experience stores and clubs tend to do about once a year or so, then I’d rather do so with a system like old apocalypse: A bodged together barely functional patch for regular 40k, because there’s zero point learning a whole different system for such a niche and rarely applied form of play.

The way I see it, it’s just the same kind of abstraction that has been a staple of historical war gaming for decades. Except in skirmish games (which does kind of include 40k), one mini generally doesn’t represent one guy. If that were the case, good luck painting the possibly hundreds of thousands of minis needed to recreate some historical battles, at any scale ... even with contrast paint

So accepting the abstraction that your minis are tokens representing whole groups of combatants, then the big advantage that Apocalypse has over Epic is that you don’t need a whole new collection in a different scale to play it. You’ll now be able to play Kill Team, 40k and Apocalypse all with the same miniatures. That’s got to be a good thing, right?

changemod wrote:
Honestly that’s kinda why I feel this version of Apocalypse is a waste of time: It’s just 28mm epic. If I wanted to play epic I’d either dig up old and third party epic materials or wait to see if they make a new version of epic in Titanicus scale.

Yeah if only GW’s design team had your insight and didn’t waste their time designing a game to play with all your stuff or have the whole club get a massive game in. They should have realised that everyone will just rummage through their attic/basement or scour ebay for old models they don’t make any more or buy competitors stuff and play with OOP rulesets or fan-created material. What a bunch of idiots!

 Nostromodamus wrote:

changemod wrote:
Honestly that’s kinda why I feel this version of Apocalypse is a waste of time: It’s just 28mm epic. If I wanted to play epic I’d either dig up old and third party epic materials or wait to see if they make a new version of epic in Titanicus scale.

Yeah if only GW’s design team had your insight and didn’t waste their time designing a game to play with all your stuff or have the whole club get a massive game in. They should have realised that everyone will just rummage through their attic/basement or scour ebay for old models they don’t make any more or buy competitors stuff and play with OOP rulesets or fan-created material. What a bunch of idiots!

Design team?

Accountants more likely.
"Hey, why not make a game so when you roll 1 dice, 5 models get removed instead of 1, then they'll have to buy 5 times as many figures".

Except minis that large aren’t really ideal for huge scale gameplay. Even if you do push all the tables in the store together, you end up with long narrow battlefield syndrome. Fighting over an unnaturally elongated strip of land because of you made it a sensible shape you wouldn’t be able to reach the centre of the table.

In truth, making 28mm scale epic (a self sufficient game) rather than traditional Apocalpse (a niche playstyle expected to not see much use) is basically a marketing attempt. A hope that some people will buy more minis so that they have a big enough army for apocalypse.

I see this version of Apocalypse also as a way of testing possible future 40K rules. Testing out the use of D12s. Condensing a unit's attacks to the unit level, rather than having the plasmagun guy fire separately. Having weapons actually function differently against large targets vs. small. And so on.
I certainly plan to use the movement trays in my regular games whenever possible for the convenience of it.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:

changemod wrote:
Honestly that’s kinda why I feel this version of Apocalypse is a waste of time: It’s just 28mm epic. If I wanted to play epic I’d either dig up old and third party epic materials or wait to see if they make a new version of epic in Titanicus scale.

Yeah if only GW’s design team had your insight and didn’t waste their time designing a game to play with all your stuff or have the whole club get a massive game in. They should have realised that everyone will just rummage through their attic/basement or scour ebay for old models they don’t make any more or buy competitors stuff and play with OOP rulesets or fan-created material. What a bunch of idiots!

Design team?

Accountants more likely.
"Hey, why not make a game so when you roll 1 dice, 5 models get removed instead of 1, then they'll have to buy 5 times as many figures".

Nah, design team. “Hey let’s make this group of 5 dudes just roll 1 die to keep things moving along seeing as there’s hundreds of models on the table”

AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:

changemod wrote:
Honestly that’s kinda why I feel this version of Apocalypse is a waste of time: It’s just 28mm epic. If I wanted to play epic I’d either dig up old and third party epic materials or wait to see if they make a new version of epic in Titanicus scale.

Yeah if only GW’s design team had your insight and didn’t waste their time designing a game to play with all your stuff or have the whole club get a massive game in. They should have realised that everyone will just rummage through their attic/basement or scour ebay for old models they don’t make any more or buy competitors stuff and play with OOP rulesets or fan-created material. What a bunch of idiots!

Design team?

Accountants more likely.
"Hey, why not make a game so when you roll 1 dice, 5 models get removed instead of 1, then they'll have to buy 5 times as many figures".

You also only shoot once with a squad... to make it faster and to make it possible to play larger games..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:
AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

Looks good and they got a little more creative which I love, 100% better than the useless Admech 8th edition rules team.

changemod wrote:
Except minis that large aren’t really ideal for huge scale gameplay. Even if you do push all the tables in the store together, you end up with long narrow battlefield syndrome. Fighting over an unnaturally elongated strip of land because of you made it a sensible shape you wouldn’t be able to reach the centre of the table.

In truth, making 28mm scale epic (a self sufficient game) rather than traditional Apocalpse (a niche playstyle expected to not see much use) is basically a marketing attempt. A hope that some people will buy more minis so that they have a big enough army for apocalypse.

But those same objections have been true of Imperial Guard artillery, fliers, and probably most of the super heavy vehicles. To a certain extent, 40k out grew a reasonable scale for what they’re putting in the game a few editions ago.

 BrookM wrote:
AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

The saves thing is awesome I hope if we get a new AdMech codex with all the new stuff this becomes a faction rule.

Apocalypse, while on paper is better suited to an epic system, is a fair product in practice.

For the tank'n'titan owner clubs out there, they can introduce smaller units into their games without sacrificing game time. If your games are growing beyond 2 squads, 1 HQ character and a Dreadnought then chances are you'll want a simpler system to speed things up. Being a Tyranid player with multiple groups of gaunts and genestealers...this sounds good, especially with the trays. And unlike an epic reboot(as sensible as that would be) the models for all factions are already available - ask the average Titanicus player how they feel about using the same damn five models over-and-over again.

Considering the Apocalypse ruleset is self contained( much like Kill Team ) and responding to the needs of some 40K players, its hard to fault it. Personally, I think its time to switch to epic when fielding anything larger than a land raider, but I do appreciate it when including every kind of player. Not sure how much this ruleset will cost but I might pick up a copy if my Tyranid force grows any larger...

 laam999 wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

The saves thing is awesome I hope if we get a new AdMech codex with all the new stuff this becomes a faction rule.

Rerollable saves on a D6 is pretty busted though so they will never do that again

 0XFallen wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

The saves thing is awesome I hope if we get a new AdMech codex with all the new stuff this becomes a faction rule.

Rerollable saves on a D6 is pretty busted though so they will never do that again

I regret to inform you that re-rollable 2+ saves are alive and well and published in recent AoS books, so don't assume GW has any ability to learn from past mistakes

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
AdMech preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/23/apocalypse-faction-focus-adeptus-mechanicusgw-homepage-post-4/

The saves thing is awesome I hope if we get a new AdMech codex with all the new stuff this becomes a faction rule.

Rerollable saves on a D6 is pretty busted though so they will never do that again

I regret to inform you that re-rollable 2+ saves are alive and well and published in recent AoS books, so don't assume GW has any ability to learn from past mistakes

Well they are different rules teams, but they were active in 8th edition too, and quickly got banhammered

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I regret to inform you that re-rollable 2+ saves are alive and well and published in recent AoS books, so don't assume GW has any ability to learn from past mistakes

What has that in AoS? I haven't ran into it--or if I had, I don't recall it.

Or is this more Hedonites nonsense?

One of the big reasons that those big apoc games are only ever held once a year in many gaming club is because everyone knows it takes a lot of effort to get through a single game. You're spending your whole day, and possibly your whole weekend, ove one table.

The appeal is that now you can have that same game in a couple of hours and still get to feel like your titans are titans and your tanks are tanks and your infantry are infantry.

I think what I'm more interested in is the fact that this is the fourth game GW has put out that's alternating activations.

Underworlds, Kill Team, Age of Sigmar, and now Apocalypse. The only outlier now is 40k.

I hope Apoc is scaleable to 1k+ or that these rules are adapted to 40k. I simply can't afford a large army, (Even 1k is pushing it for me), however all of these rules seem to provide a much better experience to 40k, based on my experience with other wargames and 40k. I simply can't bring myself to play 40k anymore, it's not fun nor engaging, but these rules give me hope. Hopefully I'll be able to play a middle ground between kill team and apoc that's still better than the current 40k ruleset.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
I hope Apoc is scaleable to 1k+ or that these rules are adapted to 40k. I simply can't afford a large army, (Even 1k is pushing it for me), however all of these rules seem to provide a much better experience to 40k, based on my experience with other wargames and 40k. I simply can't bring myself to play 40k anymore, it's not fun nor engaging, but these rules give me hope. Hopefully I'll be able to play a middle ground between kill team and apoc that's still better than the current 40k ruleset .

There is a high chance that this is just kind of a public-beta test to bring Epic back and/or for 9th edition

 kodos wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
I hope Apoc is scaleable to 1k+ or that these rules are adapted to 40k. I simply can't afford a large army, (Even 1k is pushing it for me), however all of these rules seem to provide a much better experience to 40k, based on my experience with other wargames and 40k. I simply can't bring myself to play 40k anymore, it's not fun nor engaging, but these rules give me hope. Hopefully I'll be able to play a middle ground between kill team and apoc that's still better than the current 40k ruleset .

There is a high chance that this is just kind of a public-beta test to bring Epic back and/or for 9th edition

I don't really have much love or care for Epic, but I do hope that these is a beta test for 9th. AA, Orders, Damage at the end of the round, ect. These things would be great for 40k. It'd def bring back my love for it.

A new epic is more likely than 9th. With the release of codices for 8th, it's immensely unlikely you'll see a rules set that differs from those books for 3-4 years (if even then). Writing a codex is time consuming and GW isn't going to introduce 9th edition and change the core books of the game.

Just won't happen. So while they could change some core concepts, the codices would still be used in 9th....thus you won't find much transfer from Apocalypse to 9th (or 8.5 or whatever they end up doing in the next year or two).

Then here’s to hoping Apocalypse is fun, relatively well balanced, and has few other crutch gimmicks besides the command cards. It’s probably gonna be a long wait for a new, hopefully Command Point and Stratagem free, edition of regular 40k.

Have they said if the detachment boxes are direct only? They said Limited Quantities, but not whether local stores will be able to order some and I’ve got a lot of credit at my store and my eye on that CSM bundle.

 Elbows wrote:
A new epic is more likely than 9th. With the release of codices for 8th, it's immensely unlikely you'll see a rules set that differs from those books for 3-4 years (if even then). Writing a codex is time consuming and GW isn't going to introduce 9th edition and change the core books of the game.

Just won't happen. So while they could change some core concepts, the codices would still be used in 9th....thus you won't find much transfer from Apocalypse to 9th (or 8.5 or whatever they end up doing in the next year or two).

They've both done the thing where they keep codexes around between editions and done extremely short lifespans for rulesets. Neither really prevents 9th edition.

zend wrote:Then here’s to hoping Apocalypse is fun, relatively well balanced, and has few other crutch gimmicks besides the command cards. It’s probably gonna be a long wait for a new, hopefully Command Point and Stratagem free, edition of regular 40k.

Well, it seems notable that psychic powers are definitely folded into command cards, even basic, faction defining ones like Doom. The Swordwind card also has all the hallmarks of a Strategem.
That suggests to me that a lot of things are moved into command cards.


Though worryingly, they're selling an extra pack of 100 Command cards as day 1 DLC, so even restricting shenanigans to Command Cards leaves them room to pull nonsense.
From what's in the picture from the first Apocalypse article, the 'Command Assets' pack includes basic Tyranid stuff like The Horror, Necron (Sky of Falling Stars, which involves C'tan) and Custodes (From Golden Light They Come, a teleport, or alternately a reroll) specific cards and a general psychic power.

As far as the boxed sets go, they just say 'limited numbers' but a lot of people have mentioned getting not much at all in local stores for the last couple 'limited numbers' sets (Looncurse and Carrion Empires)

the boxes shouldn't suffer from looncurse's problems though, I mean let's face it, GW's not exactly got limited stocks of say... Primaris Marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
the boxes shouldn't suffer from looncurse's problems though, I mean let's face it, GW's not exactly got limited stocks of say... Primaris Marines.

Well, not as limited, no. But they do have a limited amount that they're budgeting to sell at less than full price.

What they want people to do is drop $300+ on Saturday on a box + the apocalypse set+ the command assets+maybe dice, trays, etc. So they're willing to take an MSRP reduction for more sales of the ancillary products. (and to get people in a position they feel need to buy more later to make their initial purchase feel justified.

And of course they'll mash that 'limited' button to get the psychology working. They've had a lot of success with it over the last several years. (It helps that the limited sets actually are a good deal by GW standards- I really didn't expect the primaris and chaos marines boxes to be enough of a discount as to actually have a lower cost than 3 of the primary kit plus offer free stuff)

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the boxes shouldn't suffer from looncurse's problems though, I mean let's face it, GW's not exactly got limited stocks of say... Primaris Marines.

Well, not as limited, no. But they do have a limited amount that they're budgeting to sell at less than full price.

What they want people to do is drop $300+ on Saturday on a box + the apocalypse set+ the command assets+maybe dice, trays, etc. So they're willing to take an MSRP reduction for more sales of the ancillary products. (and to get people in a position they feel need to buy more later to make their initial purchase feel justified.

And of course they'll mash that 'limited' button to get the psychology working. They've had a lot of success with it over the last several years. (It helps that the limited sets actually are a good deal by GW standards- I really didn't expect the primaris and chaos marines boxes to be enough of a discount as to actually have a lower cost than 3 of the primary kit plus offer free stuff)

ohh absolutely just I don't expect to have trouble getting ahold of something you really want come saturday. except MAAAAYBE the Knight box

I see a lot of people that want epic back. There's a few problems with that.

A. it cannibalizes from sales that would normally go to larger and larger 40k or Apoc armies, and selling three leman russ tanks is going to make them more money than selling a pack of 3 epic sized leman russ tanks.

B. epic coming out requires Titanicus to do well. Very well. Titanicus has had... one release after the initial flood of models? They also haven't had a single release for it that's outside of the Horus Heresy theme, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

And even if epic does come out, it's going to become another Blood Bowl or Necromunda, where releases are few and far between.

I'd rather see them make a strong game of Apocalypse and then improve on 40k.

 Elbows wrote:
A new epic is more likely than 9th. With the release of codices for 8th, it's immensely unlikely you'll see a rules set that differs from those books for 3-4 years (if even then). Writing a codex is time consuming and GW isn't going to introduce 9th edition and change the core books of the game.

Just won't happen. So while they could change some core concepts, the codices would still be used in 9th....thus you won't find much transfer from Apocalypse to 9th (or 8.5 or whatever they end up doing in the next year or two).

Well, if they don't, I simlpy hope Apoc scales down well, because I'd much prefer the superior ruleset.

drbored wrote:
I see a lot of people that want epic back. There's a few problems with that.

A. it cannibalizes from sales that would normally go to larger and larger 40k or Apoc armies, and selling three leman russ tanks is going to make them more money than selling a pack of 3 epic sized leman russ tanks.

B. epic coming out requires Titanicus to do well. Very well. Titanicus has had... one release after the initial flood of models? They also haven't had a single release for it that's outside of the Horus Heresy theme, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

They're making Aeronautica Imperiallis, highly possibly same scale as Titanicus. Rule collabs might be a possibilities too. They're slowly adding more unit in the game. It's just very slow, like 5-10 years plan. Don't expect thing like infantry, dreadnought, sentinel, or tiny Guilliman, but generally big boys like Baneblade or even xenos warmachine are on the horizon, just not soon.