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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm looking at Tacticals vs Plague Marines right now. PM are significantly cheaper at larger units sizes, have the same shooting, more than double the melee output, a 6+ FNP, for just -1" move.

Can you think of anything that might make a 10-man tactical squad somewhat more durable after taking the first hit of damage than a 10-man plague marine squad?

Maybe some kind of reroll to that 1/3 chance that the plague marines run away after the first damage marker is applied that we know all Space Marines get from their rules preview?

I'm sure that the reason why tactical squads and chaos space marine squads have different costs at 10-man squad size for even THE EXACT SAME weapons and melee capabilities has nothing to do with that rule, and the only reason they have different costs is because GW are the stupidest stupidheads. We couldn't possibly be conjecting based on incomplete information.

Did Dark Eldar get nothing in this?

Nvs wrote:
Did Dark Eldar get nothing in this?

In what sense? They got rules like everyone else did.

Nvs wrote:
Did Dark Eldar get nothing in this?

They didn't get a box. Their preview is Sunday though.

Custodes didn't get a box.
Genestealer Cult didn't get a box.
Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves didn't get boxes.
Daemons didn't get a box.
Death Guard and Thousand Sons didn't get boxes.
Sisters of Battle didn't get a box--but I don't think anyone really expected them to.

the_scotsman wrote:

stratigo wrote:
As a custodes player and comparing stat by stat, I am super disappointed. Particularly in Vertus Praetors which literally shoot better than they fight in combat, and have a bunch of other baffling design choices attached.

Doing a point for point comparison between custodes units and other units leads me to going "Custodes have almost no damage output huh?"

Comparing Custodes to a basic Dreadnought (Same power level unit, so I figured it'd make a decent comparison) custodes have:

-Worse firepower at 24"
-Slightly better firepower at 12" (Owing to their Ballistic Skill, which makes up for the fact that the Dreadnought basically gets a free storm bolter)
-Slightly better melee (again, owing to the 2+WS mostly, but also the fact that the custodes' multiplicative weapon makes them immune to Critical Damage while the dreadnought gets 1 attack instead of 2 when damaged)
-Solidly better Save (6+ vs 4+).

We don't know whether there's any penalty for the Heavy weapon type as there is in 40k, but absent any penalty for that, Custodes seem pretty on-par with at least one identical power level unit there. Vertus Praetors definitely seem to have bonkers firepower compared to their melee, since they EACH get a hurricane bolter giving them 8 shots at 12" and then only 2 melee attacks...

A dreadnought is also a heavy unit, which will be important. Anti light weapons are more common with higher rates of fire, even in apoc

I’m comparing cussed toads to other infantry that fulfill a similar role, like zerkers. But my biggest gripe is the bikes which are just weird to me

the_scotsman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm looking at Tacticals vs Plague Marines right now. PM are significantly cheaper at larger units sizes, have the same shooting, more than double the melee output, a 6+ FNP, for just -1" move.

Can you think of anything that might make a 10-man tactical squad somewhat more durable after taking the first hit of damage than a 10-man plague marine squad?

Maybe some kind of reroll to that 1/3 chance that the plague marines run away after the first damage marker is applied that we know all Space Marines get from their rules preview?

I'm sure that the reason why tactical squads and chaos space marine squads have different costs at 10-man squad size for even THE EXACT SAME weapons and melee capabilities has nothing to do with that rule, and the only reason they have different costs is because GW are the stupidest stupidheads. We couldn't possibly be conjecting based on incomplete information.

GW is a big boy, doesn't need any edgelords water carrying for them. You discounting one example doesn't change the general impression that the stats and points were assigned using their tried and tested dartboard method. But if you want a challenge, feel free to explain how one extra shoota is worth +1PL on ork vehicles. I'm probably complaining based on incomplete information and there's an Ork strategem that gives shootas the Destroyer USR for a turn.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm looking at Tacticals vs Plague Marines right now. PM are significantly cheaper at larger units sizes, have the same shooting, more than double the melee output, a 6+ FNP, for just -1" move.

Can you think of anything that might make a 10-man tactical squad somewhat more durable after taking the first hit of damage than a 10-man plague marine squad?

Maybe some kind of reroll to that 1/3 chance that the plague marines run away after the first damage marker is applied that we know all Space Marines get from their rules preview?

I'm sure that the reason why tactical squads and chaos space marine squads have different costs at 10-man squad size for even THE EXACT SAME weapons and melee capabilities has nothing to do with that rule, and the only reason they have different costs is because GW are the stupidest stupidheads. We couldn't possibly be conjecting based on incomplete information.

GW is a big boy, doesn't need any edgelords water carrying for them. You discounting one example doesn't change the general impression that the stats and points were assigned using their tried and tested dartboard method. But if you want a challenge, feel free to explain how one extra shoota is worth +1PL on ork vehicles. I'm probably complaining based on incomplete information and there's an Ork strategem that gives shootas the Destroyer USR for a turn.

Nah, they seemed to do that for pretty much every vehicle that can have a rando extra gun, if they didn't just totally leave it off. See Leman Russes paying +1PL for a heavy stubber/storm bolter. They're probably not worth it, and you can definitely find stuff like "look, for the same 1PL I can have a Big Shoota on my battlewagon or I can have a lobba which has barrage and more range for the same price!"

G-G-G-G-G-G-GOT EM!

*youtube airhorn sound effect*

APOCALYPSE BALANCE DEBUNKED!!

It is worth pointing out though - do we know what the ork USR's are going to be? In base 40k, they've got dakka dakka dakka, 'ere we go, and mob rule. 1 shot at the big shoota statline definitely seems pretty crappy, and they're free for a lot of other units. My guess is it'll just be an option that's not super worth it.

And heck, maybe there is something that makes the apoc game mode totally DOA. Maybe it uses Age of Sigmar character targeting rules and killing the warlord of a detachment causes the whole rest of the detachment to rout at the end of the turn, leading to a game mode where it only ever makes sense to target characters with everything and Knight Crusaders turn their gatling guns on little farseers to evaporate whole armored columns all at once.

That'd be dumb.

That could happen, given that the Sniper rule we've been shown doesn't actually give explicit permission to target characters even if they're not the closest, giving some credence to the theory that characters will at least be somewhat targetable, and they said in the eldar article that detachments where the warlord dies are at risk of routing.

When's the intelligent time to pass that judgement?

is it BEFORE we get that rule?

the_scotsman wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


It seems reasonable to assume that Overwatch is not a thing in this gamemode given that all Ignore Overwatch abilities are gone. Are we going to get Age of Sigmar's blanket ability to attack with shooting weapons in melee combat?

Whatshername mentioned something in the video about a charged unit still getting to fire their ranged weapons but at -1 to hit? The whole alternating activation + orders thing makes overwatch redundant - it's up to you to activate the right detachments to shoot up the enemies that intend to charge before they gets their chance to move. If you fail to do so, they'll rush you and hand you your butt on a platter, just the way it's supposed to be.

Ah, that's true. I rewatched that section, must have missed it the first time because I FEAR JAZZ! I FEAR THE LACK OF RULES!

so that makes sense. The alternating activations mean that even if you activate your ranged units first and shoot up the unit that will charge you, all that changes is you don't suffer the negative to-hit modifier - the unit still gets to charge and hit you at full power. I guess all that's left is what happens when you activate a detachment that has some of its units in combat, some of its units out of combat...what does it do?

in Age of Sigmar, units in combat may fire their ranged weapons in close combat but only at units within combat distance of them (1" in 40k, would be 3" in aos). Characters can also be targeted freely but at a -1 to hit if they're within 3" of a friendly unit. Perhaps Apocalypse adds an extra -1 to both of those rules to account for the extra power ranged weapons have in 40k compared to AOS, where they tend to be shorter range, less plentiful and less powerful on average.

But it definitely makes sense they'd replace Overwatch for Apoc. it's a massive timesink, and replacing it with the unit still getting to shoot but at a penalty rather than the unit getting EXTRA shooting on top of their usual shooting as a bonus for getting charged at...I like that a lot. the feeling of "my army is locked down and useless now, welp, better pack up" is gone while also not feeling like shooters have every advantage in the world.

Fight is close combat, not shoot or a general 'attack' - so they are stuck in base to base, and melee at a penalty with no shooting at all. Don't just stand there when the enemy is right in front of you, brandishing chainswords! Strategically advance in a retrograde fashion!

Hmmm, 4 pages over night and all have the word, "Compare" in it.......every other post is a complaint about GW, (the gold standard in forums).......meanwhile, I just got my Tau Orca based painted and I am devising a way to spend $200 without my wife killing me. :-)

the_scotsman wrote:

It is worth pointing out though - do we know what the ork USR's are going to be? In base 40k, they've got dakka dakka dakka, 'ere we go, and mob rule. 1 shot at the big shoota statline definitely seems pretty crappy, and they're free for a lot of other units. My guess is it'll just be an option that's not super worth it.

That was in the faction focus. Every 6 to hit with any sort of attack gives an extra attack (non-recursive). Simple and sweet.

And if I'm reading it right, 30 shoota boys throw out 16 dice for some unholy reason.

I feel like Admech, once again, has been really gutted.
I like the rule to reroll saves of 1 and the new Robot protocols.

HOWEVER.
90% of the rules are gone in comparison to about 50% of other factions.
Skitarii have no special weapons.
Vanguards arent better than rangers in melee.

Cawl and Manipulus lost tentacles
Manipulus is suddenly worse in melee than enginseer and a dominus
Servitors stay at their LD4
Repairing is on a 4+ that is not even buffed with servitors
Priests cant repair biological units anymore.
Phorphor serpenta, a little assault 1 gun, is now suddenly heavy?
Some Weapon options are all pretty useless, as you can only take others if you want it to be worse at any stat

 Da-Rock wrote:
Hmmm, 4 pages over night and all have the word, "Compare" in it.......every other post is a complaint about GW, (the gold standard in forums).......meanwhile, I just got my Tau Orca based painted and I am devising a way to spend $200 without my wife killing me. :-)

You should post a picture of that thing.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

It is worth pointing out though - do we know what the ork USR's are going to be? In base 40k, they've got dakka dakka dakka, 'ere we go, and mob rule. 1 shot at the big shoota statline definitely seems pretty crappy, and they're free for a lot of other units. My guess is it'll just be an option that's not super worth it.

That was in the faction focus. Every 6 to hit with any sort of attack gives an extra attack (non-recursive). Simple and sweet.

And if I'm reading it right, 30 shoota boys throw out 16 dice for some unholy reason.

Yep. They drop from 12 to 8 melee attacks going from slugga and choppa to shootas and close combat weapons, but jump from 8 shots to 16 when they go from 20 models to 30. There is a slight surcharge on the 30 ork unit, and an additional cost for shootas (but just +1, regardless of the number of models), but big shootas and rokkits seem to be free.
So a 30 strong unit should have 16 shoota attacks and 3 big shoota (or rokkit) attacks for 14 PR.

Weirdly, Stormboys have much worse weapons (as user, no A multiplier), but slightly higher base attacks.

 0XFallen wrote:
I feel like Admech, once again, has been really gutted.
I like the rule to reroll saves of 1 and the new Robot protocols.

HOWEVER.
90% of the rules are gone in comparison to about 50% of other factions.
Skitarii have no special weapons.
Vanguards arent better than rangers in melee.

Cawl and Manipulus lost tentacles
Manipulus is suddenly worse in melee than enginseer and a dominus
Servitors stay at their LD4
Repairing is on a 4+ that is not even buffed with servitors
Priests cant repair biological units anymore.
Phorphor serpenta, a little assault 1 gun, is now suddenly heavy?
Some Weapon options are all pretty useless, as you can only take others if you want it to be worse at any stat

This is a really odd post. Some of the AdMech datasheets have so many special rules there literally isn't room to fit anymore on the page. ALL factions lost special weapons; Marines, IG vets, GSC Neophytes, Storm Guardians, etc. If Skitarii got to keep theirs it would be very strange. Rules like marginally better repairing or bonus extra melee attacks in 40k simply don't matter at this scale. It's the same reason why single characters from most other factions can't make shooting attacks (yet several AdMech ones still can!).

There's a lot of words here to basically say "why didn't AdMech get special treatment?", even though they kinda did.

 xttz wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
I feel like Admech, once again, has been really gutted.
I like the rule to reroll saves of 1 and the new Robot protocols.

HOWEVER.
90% of the rules are gone in comparison to about 50% of other factions.
Skitarii have no special weapons.
Vanguards arent better than rangers in melee.

Cawl and Manipulus lost tentacles
Manipulus is suddenly worse in melee than enginseer and a dominus
Servitors stay at their LD4
Repairing is on a 4+ that is not even buffed with servitors
Priests cant repair biological units anymore.
Phorphor serpenta, a little assault 1 gun, is now suddenly heavy?
Some Weapon options are all pretty useless, as you can only take others if you want it to be worse at any stat

This is a really odd post. Some of the AdMech datasheets have so many special rules there literally isn't room to fit anymore on the page. ALL factions lost special weapons; Marines, IG vets, GSC Neophytes, Storm Guardians, etc. If Skitarii got to keep theirs it would be very strange. Rules like marginally better repairing or bonus extra melee attacks in 40k simply don't matter at this scale. It's the same reason why single characters from most other factions can't make shooting attacks (yet several AdMech ones still can!).

There's a lot of words here to basically say "why didn't AdMech get special treatment?", even though they kinda did.

Not really, Cawl literally wields a neutronlaser.
Last time I checked Guardsmen can still weild special weapons.
Most special rules didnt really get drafted, but they got included into the wound mechanic.
Also a lot of other inconsistencies I mentioned.

 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:
There's seemingly no rhyme or reason to these stats. They feel so random and don't reflect their counterparts in regular 40K. I'm still trying to figure out what the point of the Twin Lascannon is when the Vanquisher Battle Cannon is just a flat upgrade compared to it.

And same isn't true in 40k? In 40k battle cannon is flat out better upgrade over vanquisher cannon.

GW doesn't do balanced games. Whopedoo. Big surprise...not.

The Vanquisher to be fair is cheaper and at least does something different from the regular battle cannon even though 90% of the time the battle cannon is better. Its not the balance that’s getting me though, it’s the inconsistency. The Executioner plasma cannon is the exact same as a regular plasma cannon. Why does a conqueror battle cannon have such a different profile compared to a regular battle cannon when it’s essentially the same weapon? Why does a twin auto cannon have the same number of attacks as a single shot anti tank weapon. All that for just the weapon options for a single unit. I don’t even wanna know what the comparison is like when you start comparing different units.

Vanquisher does different...what? Better AT? Nope. Battle cannon is better vs it too. There's basically no target you WANT vanquisher cannon when you have battle cannon available. It's like having lower SAT in apoc. Sure it's DIFFERENT but it's still inferior. Just like vanquisher cannon in 40k. It just plain sucks for points vs both infantry AND AT.

 solkan wrote:

changemod wrote:
Except minis that large aren’t really ideal for huge scale gameplay. Even if you do push all the tables in the store together, you end up with long narrow battlefield syndrome. Fighting over an unnaturally elongated strip of land because of you made it a sensible shape you wouldn’t be able to reach the centre of the table.

In truth, making 28mm scale epic (a self sufficient game) rather than traditional Apocalpse (a niche playstyle expected to not see much use) is basically a marketing attempt. A hope that some people will buy more minis so that they have a big enough army for apocalypse.

But those same objections have been true of Imperial Guard artillery, fliers, and probably most of the super heavy vehicles. To a certain extent, 40k out grew a reasonable scale for what they’re putting in the game a few editions ago.

This is very true. To illustrate: my local GW recently moved to a new store location... 2 doors down the same street. I started playing in the tail end of 4th edition, and one of the vehicles in my Imperial Guard army (the Basilisk) has been able to hit a table on the new store from the old store for every edition I've played. I once played an Apocalypse game where I nearly reached the end of my tape measure firing the Basilisk (and blew up a Chaos Predator belonging to a player I had not otherwise interacted with for the entire game so far), but that was about 6'. There is still 14' left of range for the venerable Earthshaker!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nvs wrote:
Did Dark Eldar get nothing in this?

They didn't get a box. Their preview is Sunday though.

Custodes didn't get a box.
Genestealer Cult didn't get a box.
Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves didn't get boxes.
Daemons didn't get a box.
Death Guard and Thousand Sons didn't get boxes.
Sisters of Battle didn't get a box--but I don't think anyone really expected them to.

GSC got a pretty nice Brood Brothers tank set. Just no upgrade sprues, but I'm sure I can make do with some spare heads from existing kits.

I know it’s veey early days, and all we have are data sheets, but what’s the consensus so far? Apocalypse looking good or bad?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I know it’s veey early days, and all we have are data sheets, but what’s the consensus so far? Apocalypse looking good or bad?

It's definitely an improvement on previous editions. The core rules overhaul of alternate activation, delayed damage, and generally trimming away lots of minutiae from regular 40k make it a realistic prospect to arrange games without requiring full days or weekends. My local club is already talking about playing a campaign with it rather than the traditional once-per-year big game.

If GW continue to support Apoc with FAQ / errata / unit datasheet updates to fix some of the oddities I think it definitely looks promising.

 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Is that different to regular 40K in any way? A lot of units suck, some are good. Some factions are worse than others.

Apoc seems to be on a magnitude greater though. It honestly seems like they had a different person work on converting each faction from regular 40K over to Apoc and none of them coordinated with each other and no one reviewed the final product. There too many instances of what are functionally similar weapons or units with wildy varying stats.

Take the Leman Russ weapons for example.

Spoiler:

There's seemingly no rhyme or reason to these stats. They feel so random and don't reflect their counterparts in regular 40K. I'm still trying to figure out what the point of the Twin Lascannon is when the Vanquisher Battle Cannon is just a flat upgrade compared to it.

Isn't one of them a turret weapon while the other is sponsor?

Know what pisses me off the most?

Vertus praetors come in 3/5/10 unit sizes. They sell them in boxes of 3. Literaly EVERY other bike unit in the game goes up by 3/6/9. fething what?

stratigo wrote:
Know what pisses me off the most?

Vertus praetors come in 3/5/10 unit sizes. They sell them in boxes of 3. Literaly EVERY other bike unit in the game goes up by 3/6/9. fething what?

Just deploy 9 then!

As this is essentially 28mm epic with undersized tables, your individual models are irrelevant so long as you convey you're a size class 3 custodes bike unit.

stratigo wrote:
Know what pisses me off the most?

Vertus praetors come in 3/5/10 unit sizes. They sell them in boxes of 3. Literaly EVERY other bike unit in the game goes up by 3/6/9. fething what?

DA Ravenwing Black Knight bikes got the same treatment, they come in boxes of 3 and have a unit size of 3/5/10.

stratigo wrote:
Know what pisses me off the most?

Vertus praetors come in 3/5/10 unit sizes. They sell them in boxes of 3. Literaly EVERY other bike unit in the game goes up by 3/6/9. fething what?

That’s probably a typo. Is there an indication of where to send complaints/errata/FAQ requests yet, or does it all just go to the community address?

 solkan wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Know what pisses me off the most?

Vertus praetors come in 3/5/10 unit sizes. They sell them in boxes of 3. Literaly EVERY other bike unit in the game goes up by 3/6/9. fething what?

That’s probably a typo. Is there an indication of where to send complaints/errata/FAQ requests yet, or does it all just go to the community address?

It isn't a typo at all, All custodes stuff come in 3/5/10. But wardens and guard come in boxes of 5, so it makes sense, while Termies and vertus come in 3, making it awkward. I suspect the idea they came upon is that "Well everyone would have made a guy into a shield captain" which... while true, everyone made 3 guys into shield captains, and if you REALLY wanted to do it this way, 3/5/8 would be more rational. It offends my sense of proportionality. But also it offends my wallet


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now having just read the custodes faction focus, it does seem like there IS a typo for allarus termies, in that they should have 3+ saves. The characters do, but the regular ones don't.

 xttz wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I know it’s veey early days, and all we have are data sheets, but what’s the consensus so far? Apocalypse looking good or bad?

It's definitely an improvement on previous editions. The core rules overhaul of alternate activation, delayed damage, and generally trimming away lots of minutiae from regular 40k make it a realistic prospect to arrange games without requiring full days or weekends. My local club is already talking about playing a campaign with it rather than the traditional once-per-year big game.

If GW continue to support Apoc with FAQ / errata / unit datasheet updates to fix some of the oddities I think it definitely looks promising.

I'm a little afraid that it is not as fluid as they tell.
Attack are still done with 3 successive rolls, with a lot of rerolls alerady available for every step, and feel no pain is still here too. You throw less dice but that's it. And to compensate there more multi wound units to keep track of and much more token on the board.
Movement is where you gain a lot with movement trays, but i fear that movement trays will not be the best way to deploy, especially for chaff units.
You don't have a psychic phase, but an order phase which will definitely takes time too.
I don't think it will necessary be a problem for "small" Apo, but the huge battle ?
I definitively want to test it and i am quite pleased by some aspects of it, but i'm sad they did'nt decided to fuse attack and wound roll on the same characteristic and have way less rerolls and more modifier which are faster. With D12 think it would have been sufficient.

I have two local stores in my area.

So in talking with both owners, not one single person has preordered this here. I'm actually surprised by this.

 Togusa wrote:
I have two local stores in my area.

So in talking with both owners, not one single person has preordered this here. I'm actually surprised by this.

The preorders don’t go up until Saturday.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I have two local stores in my area.

So in talking with both owners, not one single person has preordered this here. I'm actually surprised by this.

The preorders don’t go up until Saturday.

I understand that. Our stores start lists for people who wish to preorder something as soon as it is announced. Usually by this time they have several dozen names on that list for GW products. For the first time, it's three days until preorder and not one person has expressed any interest here. Which is surprising.