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Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.

bmsattler wrote:
Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.

Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.

Salt donkey wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.

Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.

On the one hand, FEAR ME VERTUS PRAETORS!

On the other hand, it's only four shots on average. So you're looking at 8/3 hits, 16/9 wounds, and 16/27 failed saves. Or, in other words, you need to get lucky to punk ONE Vertus Praetor.

Better against Dreads (same hits and wounds, but 8/9 failed saves) but still not GREAT.

Salt donkey wrote:

Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.

Wouldn't you almost always rather make a knight despoiller a Dreadblade? You can only have one dreadblade choose pacts/damnations per detachment.

True, dreadblading the wardog is wasteful-but it IS an option, unlike for imperials.
So, if for some insane reason your list includes a singular wardog, he wan be a dreadblade.

Here is an initial list thought.

Super heavy detachment - +6cp - iconoclass

Titan Castellen : 2 missiles, 2 seigebreakers, Dreadblade : pick ap-1 counts as ap0. Take volatile reactor and warp fatigue. Relic : 4++ invunerable. Take vow of dominance. Make warlord, give 6+++ from big book. 704 pts for a durable warlord. (-2cp for vow)

Knight Disploiler : 2 avenger gattling, ironstorm missile pod. vow of carnage (-2cp for vow). 481 pts.

Knight Disploiler : 2 rapid fire gattling cannons, ironstorm missile pod. Vow of beastslayer (-1cp). 491 pts. Tyrants banner for -1cp



Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)

Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)


Total : 2000 pts, 5cp, with potential to get more.

Just me looking at dreadblades and thinking they are awsome, but hows the best setup for them? Alternatively you could drop the iron storm pods and turn the warglaives into autocannon varients.

You can't have more than one Dreadblade that has benefits from it in the same list.

Azuza001 wrote:
Here is an initial list thought.

Super heavy detachment - +6cp - iconoclass

Titan Castellen : 2 missiles, 2 seigebreakers, Dreadblade : pick ap-1 counts as ap0. Take volatile reactor and warp fatigue. Relic : 4++ invunerable. Take vow of dominance. Make warlord, give 6+++ from big book. 704 pts for a durable warlord. (-2cp for vow)

Knight Disploiler : 2 avenger gattling, ironstorm missile pod. vow of carnage (-2cp for vow). 481 pts.

Knight Disploiler : 2 rapid fire gattling cannons, ironstorm missile pod. Vow of beastslayer (-1cp). 491 pts. Tyrants banner for -1cp



Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)

Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)


Total : 2000 pts, 5cp, with potential to get more.

Just me looking at dreadblades and thinking they are awsome, but hows the best setup for them? Alternatively you could drop the iron storm pods and turn the warglaives into autocannon varients.

A few points:

1) Both Chaos Knights and Imperial Knights cannot take warlord traits from the main rulebook. It says so on their warlord trait page.

2) The +1 CP Pact (knower of profane secrets) only gives you a maximum of 1CP regardless of how many knights you have with it.

On an unrelated note I just noticed that rotate ion shield has been change in the Chaos codex to only works for ranged attacks, so no 4++ in melee with the Dreadblade relic.

Wonder if the following could work in semi-comp meta?

Red corsair batallion

2x Lord discordant

20x marines + 2x reaper chaincannon
5x marines
5x marines

Chaos knights

Despoiler + 2x avenger gatling cannon
Desecrator
2x wardogs + autocannons

How do you feel?

May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

As far as pure knights go, if you want to win ITC best in faction for chaos knights just know there will be stiff competition for it, and that pure knights are frankly much worse than knights in soup. If you can live with that go ahead, but these are the facts.

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Naive knight question - If i take a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment - I give up the legion traits - but I can still use the stratagems that are specific for that house, access the relics and get warlord traits?

For example - I could give an iconoclast despoiler in a super heavy aux 2 gats with flamers, the helm to mitigate hit modifier, and then use the vox pre-game to let me reroll wounds. And still make it a dreadblade?

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Oh that makes sense, While it is a bummer, at least this means you can designate multiple knights as Dreadblades, then decide which one gets packs and damnation based on match-up.

orkswubwub wrote:
Naive knight question - If i take a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment - I give up the legion traits - but I can still use the stratagems that are specific for that house, access the relics and get warlord traits?

For example - I could give an iconoclast despoiler in a super heavy aux 2 gats with flamers, the helm to mitigate hit modifier, and then use the vox pre-game to let me reroll wounds. And still make it a dreadblade?

Yes the only thing that you give up with aux detachments is the ambition trait. I think double thermal with stormspear is a good bet if you need to take down some armour and you can choose all your artifacts, warlord traits and dreadblade pacts and damnations when you see your opponent.

I didnt see the the thing about the warlord traits, good catch.

Yeah you can have multiple dreadblades with the pacts, they just have to be in separate deatchments. Thats why i put the wardogs in their own super heavy auxiliary detachments.

Also good catch on multiple uses of the secrets pact only earns you 1cp. Weird they did that but ok.

As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.

Anyone else thinking dual Avengers with the 'No Hit Modifiers' Relic?

I can see that ruining quite a few flying circus days out?

Also feel somewhat drawn to the Tzeentchian Hotseat. Being able to flick out a Smite could be quite saucy, spesh as it only costs CP to obtain?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone else thinking dual Avengers with the 'No Hit Modifiers' Relic?

I can see that ruining quite a few flying circus days out?

Also feel somewhat drawn to the Tzeentchian Hotseat. Being able to flick out a Smite could be quite saucy, spesh as it only costs CP to obtain?

I've tried a couple of games with the thermal, avenger gatling and stormspear (1 point more than double avenger). It's worked well. I've not played flyers but I played custodes with banner and that and a rampager with Khornate target ripped them apart!

What other combos have people played around with?

I mean, we've far more freedom to mix and match than Loyalist Knights, I think? Are the RFBC still generally frowned upon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.

This is, I'm 89.5783% sure is the result of an FAQ/Eratta?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.

This is, I'm 89.5783% sure is the result of an FAQ/Eratta?

No the imperial knight version of rotate ion shield does not specify ranged attacks. So it currently can increase your invulnerable save in close combat.

Will have to check me books and documents and that when I get home

Always good to make sure I've got the right end of the stick, spesh when I likely have the wrong end

I suck at list writing, what can I fit in 1750?

BAN wrote:
I suck at list writing, what can I fit in 1750?

If you want full knights you can get 2 knights with thermal, avenger gatling cannon and stormspear. 2x rampagers and a wardog. If you just want knights only.

I'd take a min bat of red cosairs for cp though

Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.

Salt donkey wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.

The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.

BAN wrote:
Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers

I wouldn’t write off Wardogs. If you choose to with specialist rather than combined arms Knights, they can plug gaps in your tactical options. They’re particularly useful for dogging your enemies flanks, and either softening up or polishing off enemy units you need to be dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man.....

I can fit quite a bit into a 1750 list.

Knight Desecrator with Thunderstrike and Heavy Stubber comes in at 422

Knight Despoiler with dual Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Stubber is 457.

Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, plus Heavy Stubber is a ‘mere’ 307. Could upgrade it to a Rampager for 322.

Three War Dogs with Heavy Stubbers, with main armament to be decided are 162 a pop, or 486 together.

1687 all in. That leaves points spare to upgrade some Heavy Stubbers to Meltaguns (12 point difference between the options)

Command Points wise? I don’t think it makes a difference to my total CP? Because I can field two with at least one Titanic, I get 3CP for each. And if I do a single Lance (with the War Dogs deploying as squadrons, natch) I get 6CP, as it’ll have three Titanic units.

Of course, that’s if I’m reading things right, and haven’t missed a core FAQ or eratta type thing?

Reckon splitting is better, as I can then have two characters, and I can’t think of an actual downside? Sure, there’ll be a 1CP tax to give them a Relic too, but I figure that’s an equal trade?

Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at it, I think that’s a force I can work with.

Plenty of speed, some serious HTH power, and if I keep the Pups near the Desecrator, I get some nice Bubblebuff without having to spend a single CP.

Relics wise? Pretty sure the Despoiler will have the Helm of No Hit Mods. And the Diamonas means I get the most out of the Desecrator’s shooting, as it’ll always get 3 shots, and the extra Strength (16 vs 14) means I’ll have a far easier time wounding vehicles and assorted big stuff. Seems a real no-brainer to me?

 small_gods wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.

The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.

See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)

Salt donkey wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations

Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.

The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.

See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)

It says 'That model gains an additional pact and damnation of your choice.' I think it's a stretch to say that additional means in addition to zero and it's talking about models and not detachments.

You could try and argue it with the TO, but I would guess that until there was an faq to clarify, they'd likely say no.

I think it's usefulness comes from the fact that you can roll for pacts and damnations originally to get the chance of getting 3 decent buffs (pacts seem geared towards mele knights, so you have a good chance of something useful) and you can choose your third. Same with damnations you can roll for one and select forsaken if you don't get it first time round.

anyone know when battlescribe is going to be updated for the knights of Dark Renown!!

 small_gods wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:


The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.

See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)

It says 'That model gains an additional pact and damnation of your choice.' I think it's a stretch to say that additional means in addition to zero and it's talking about models and not detachments.

You could try and argue it with the TO, but I would guess that until there was an faq to clarify, they'd likely say no.

I think it's usefulness comes from the fact that you can roll for pacts and damnations originally to get the chance of getting 3 decent buffs (pacts seem geared towards mele knights, so you have a good chance of something useful) and you can choose your third. Same with damnations you can roll for one and select forsaken if you don't get it first time round.

Mostly it comes down to what’s permissible vs what’s makes sense grammatically. Yes “additional” makes it clear that GW expects you to take it on a model that already has pacts and damnations, but no where does it say you can’t.

Nether-less you’re right we’ll need an FAQ and frankly I don’t want to be that guy on the board who argues this ad nauseam on tactics article, so I won’t use it until I’m sure I’m right. So back on topic, what are people’s thoughts on solo knights in a chaos soup list? Better or worse then purge Deredeo dreadnoughts?