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I'd like to build a list with a Valiant (or whatever its Chaos counterpart is) along with a rampager, double chaingun knight, and two wardogs. What would be the best way to run that combo?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

BAN wrote:
Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers

I wouldn’t write off Wardogs. If you choose to with specialist rather than combined arms Knights, they can plug gaps in your tactical options. They’re particularly useful for dogging your enemies flanks, and either softening up or polishing off enemy units you need to be dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man.....

I can fit quite a bit into a 1750 list.

Knight Desecrator with Thunderstrike and Heavy Stubber comes in at 422

Knight Despoiler with dual Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Stubber is 457.

Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, plus Heavy Stubber is a ‘mere’ 307. Could upgrade it to a Rampager for 322.

Three War Dogs with Heavy Stubbers, with main armament to be decided are 162 a pop, or 486 together.

1687 all in. That leaves points spare to upgrade some Heavy Stubbers to Meltaguns (12 point difference between the options)

Command Points wise? I don’t think it makes a difference to my total CP? Because I can field two with at least one Titanic, I get 3CP for each. And if I do a single Lance (with the War Dogs deploying as squadrons, natch) I get 6CP, as it’ll have three Titanic units.

Of course, that’s if I’m reading things right, and haven’t missed a core FAQ or eratta type thing?

Reckon splitting is better, as I can then have two characters, and I can’t think of an actual downside? Sure, there’ll be a 1CP tax to give them a Relic too, but I figure that’s an equal trade?

Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at it, I think that’s a force I can work with.

Plenty of speed, some serious HTH power, and if I keep the Pups near the Desecrator, I get some nice Bubblebuff without having to spend a single CP.

Relics wise? Pretty sure the Despoiler will have the Helm of No Hit Mods. And the Diamonas means I get the most out of the Desecrator’s shooting, as it’ll always get 3 shots, and the extra Strength (16 vs 14) means I’ll have a far easier time wounding vehicles and assorted big stuff. Seems a real no-brainer to me?

I am not sure about all your points but i know your despoiler with sword and fist is wrong. The cost of the despolier that has a reaper chainsword and thunderstrike gauntlet is base 305 without equipment, you still have to pay the 65 pts for those weapons and 2 for the heavy stubber. Look above at the top of the chart, it says points per model (not including wargear). The reason the model costs more based if you give it the sword/fist is the ws2+ and extra attack.

Yeah. Friend at my local games club pointed out a few errors.

Ah well. Shall rejig it all tonight, see how it pans out.

Anyone had much luck yet vs something like orks running double gatling an then extra attack for 10mods killed? so go in with it and stomp

seems like it could be insane.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I'd like to build a list with a Valiant (or whatever its Chaos counterpart is) along with a rampager, double chaingun knight, and two wardogs. What would be the best way to run that combo?

I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone had much luck yet vs something like orks running double gatling an then extra attack for 10mods killed? so go in with it and stomp

seems like it could be insane.

That seems like the most most obvious plug-and-play build from the codex at the moment.

I haven’t had a detailed read of the codex yet, but a dual gat Knight with helm of warp sight and vow of carnage just seems like such a solid utilitarian kit that it’s hard to dismiss despite being the ‘obvious’ choice.


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Something in me says that there’s a more nuanced build hiding in there amongst all the relics, warlord traits and pacts that can be combined to create an even more optimal Knight for a chaos soup list, but at the same time something has to be said for the sweet sheer simplicity of aforementioned double gats extra stompy Knight

I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?

My points are also out, as I forgot to pay for the Heavy Flamers.

I think I can still squeak it all in though. Will have another look tonight.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?

yep they are literally more expensive.. rampager is a bit more too on top of that obv for the exploding 6's. Reasons could be that GW are offsetting a bit higher costs because from what i can tell chaos knights are going to be better in combat vs imperials (this includes being faster) but this is barely the only thing i can think of - unless ofc in the next FAQ IK gallants are going up in pts.

Shh Latro, let’s not stir up the nerf monster from his slumber in between FAQ’s......

ZzzzZZzzzZzz

.......I think we got away with it

Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?

Because a lot of players really want to find loopholes and read what the want to read.

1: It says 'wargear not included',
2: 305 points is way to cheap for a full close combat knight,
3: A despoiler with chain/gauntlet get's an +1WS + 1A so maybe that's why you pay an extra 20 points.

It is not rocket science people...

So when can we expect the FAQ for the Codex?

Is it this week or next?

Also, because I'm afraid I'm having a Thick, where does it say a Despoiler with Chain/Gauntlet gets the WS and A bonus? Because isn't that a Rampager?

For clarity, these are genuine questions, and aren't to be read as an expression of doubt that Shogun is right!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So when can we expect the FAQ for the Codex?

Is it this week or next?

Also, because I'm afraid I'm having a Thick, where does it say a Despoiler with Chain/Gauntlet gets the WS and A bonus? Because isn't that a Rampager?

For clarity, these are genuine questions, and aren't to be read as an expression of doubt that Shogun is right!

The FAQ will likely come out next week or the week after.

The Despoiler Datasheet gives the +1 WS +1A to CC a knight. Really the rampager is 15 more points simply for the fist/chainsword attack gimmick. Just run your Ramager as a despoiler if you bought one. I can guarantee you pretty much no one will care.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:

Spoiler:

Red Corsairs Battalion
Master of Possession
Warpsmith
3x 5 Chaos Space Marines
2x Heldrake with Baleflamer
Chaos Knight Superheavy Detachment (Iconoclast)
Knight Despoiler: 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
Flawless Host Supreme Command
Soulforged Pack
3x Lord Discordant

yes is close to a build im actually testing but i play 2 warglaives (so i have extra melee support) and no helldrakes, i play 3 venomcrawlers+sorcerer for warptime but i would squeeze into list a MoP.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:

Spoiler:

Red Corsairs Battalion
Master of Possession
Warpsmith
3x 5 Chaos Space Marines
2x Heldrake with Baleflamer
Chaos Knight Superheavy Detachment (Iconoclast)
Knight Despoiler: 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
Flawless Host Supreme Command
Soulforged Pack
3x Lord Discordant

The master of possession and warpsmith won't work across different legions. You'd be better just taking the LDs as red cosairs to swap extra attacks for advance and charge and save 158 points. Which could buy you a cc wardog or a maulerfiend/defiler.

What you think about damnations/pacts for dreadblades someone tried them?
the main problem i found with MoP in a list like that is it's too slow, hard keep models within 6"

Something I've been thinking about is how CP hungry are Chaos Knights?

At first I thought they were more CP hungry than Imperial Knights but now I'm not so sure. To the point where I'm questioning even running an allied battalion.

Imperial knights need CP to take a bunch of relics and warlord traits (they tend to want to spend 6CP here as their relics and traits add a lot of raw power/survivability). Then they need CP for rotate ion shields and machine spirit resurgent (likely to be 2CP a turn) add order of the companions if you are house raven and you have a real CP burning machine.

Chaos Knights on the other hand definitely have the potential to be CP hungry. But after a closer look I feel they don't need to be. Our warlord traits are a mixed bag, and outside of taking warp haunted hull against armies with psykers I don't see myself spending CP on tyrannical court let alone 3CP. The same goes for our relics, we have some great match up specific relics but I don't see myself taking more than 2 (1 for free and 1 for 1 CP) of them in any given match up. Looking at the regular stratagems I don't see myself using them often either, as most are situational. Rotate ion shield is definitely strong but only when your opponent can't target multiple knights with the same weapons or has most of his firepower concentrated on a single unit. That leaves Trail of Destruction which is great. But, Is it better than having more stuff?

Trail of Destruction increases your damage output by:

BS/WS 3 33%
BS/WS 4 50%
BS/WS 5 66%

It actually gets more effective as you start to degrade. Being the least effective at BS3.

The cheapest red corsairs battalion we can field is:

2x warpsmith 3x 5 chaos marines - 315pts

This gets you 8 more CP and 17 T4 bodies. Say we have 3 knight despoilers each with reaper and avenger in this list. What can you do with those 8 CP? Increase the firepower of a single knight by 33-66% for 4 turns. Or you could drop the red corsair battalion and upgrade the reaper chainsaws on those knights to avenger Gatling cannons for 207pts increasing the firepower all your knights by 100% for the rest of the game.

Now I know this is an oversimplified and extreme example. But it does help focus the question on whether running that CP battalion (that doesn't being any other value) is really worth it.

One extra use I make heavy use of is exploding knights on a 4+ (and a reroll if necessary)

In the right situation that can totally swing the game!

 Mushkilla wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is how CP hungry are Chaos Knights?

At first I thought they were more CP hungry than Imperial Knights but now I'm not so sure. To the point where I'm questioning even running an allied battalion.

Imperial knights need CP to take a bunch of relics and warlord traits (they tend to want to spend 6CP here as their relics and traits add a lot of raw power/survivability). Then they need CP for rotate ion shields and machine spirit resurgent (likely to be 2CP a turn) add order of the companions if you are house raven and you have a real CP burning machine.

Chaos Knights on the other hand definitely have the potential to be CP hungry. But after a closer look I feel they don't need to be. Our warlord traits are a mixed bag, and outside of taking warp haunted hull against armies with psykers I don't see myself spending CP on tyrannical court let alone 3CP. The same goes for our relics, we have some great match up specific relics but I don't see myself taking more than 2 (1 for free and 1 for 1 CP) of them in any given match up. Looking at the regular stratagems I don't see myself using them often either, as most are situational. Rotate ion shield is definitely strong but only when your opponent can't target multiple knights with the same weapons or has most of his firepower concentrated on a single unit. That leaves Trail of Destruction which is great. But, Is it better than having more stuff?

Trail of Destruction increases your damage output by:

BS/WS 3 33%
BS/WS 4 50%
BS/WS 5 66%

It actually gets more effective as you start to degrade. Being the least effective at BS3.

The cheapest red corsairs battalion we can field is:

2x warpsmith 3x 5 chaos marines - 315pts

This gets you 8 more CP and 17 T4 bodies. Say we have 3 knight despoilers each with reaper and avenger in this list. What can you do with those 8 CP? Increase the firepower of a single knight by 33-66% for 4 turns. Or you could drop the red corsair battalion and upgrade the reaper chainsaws on those knights to avenger Gatling cannons for 207pts increasing the firepower all your knights by 100% for the rest of the game.

Now I know this is an oversimplified and extreme example. But it does help focus the question on whether running that CP battalion (that doesn't being any other value) is really worth it.

I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.

 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.

So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.

So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.

I suppose it depends on what mission types and sort of terrain that you play regularly. I tend to play ITC missions on fairly crowded terrain so there's plenty of places to hide units. Bring in screen from behind LOS etc.

I just think knights aim to destroy as much of their opponent as possible and not score objectives so generally they kill much more but lose on points. So supporing units become really useful.

60 plaguebearers in a daemon battalion and 3 knights is probably going to be the way to go.

While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.

Tzeentchian pyrothrone + warp-haunted hull

 small_gods wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.

So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.

I suppose it depends on what mission types and sort of terrain that you play regularly. I tend to play ITC missions on fairly crowded terrain so there's plenty of places to hide units. Bring in screen from behind LOS etc.

I just think knights aim to destroy as much of their opponent as possible and not score objectives so generally they kill much more but lose on points. So supporing units become really useful.

60 plaguebearers in a daemon battalion and 3 knights is probably going to be the way to go.

I was thinking this as well as I was reading some of the stuff that Chaos Knights received in the codex. I was thinking of something like this, if you have some better ideas on alternative choices do feel free to let me know!



I had 45 points lying around exactly, so I bought the second Stormspear missile pod on my gallant-equivalent. I am not sure how GOOD it will actually be though as I am planning on advancing him and using full tilt turn one to get him into combat with something. Likewise I chose the Scrivener as I needed to fill points and I honestly like him better than the normal Bilepiper (Never had that 1 roll on my morale tests yet).

I think I am liking the idea of using 2xRFBC with the Infernal Household. The option to riptide it up multiple times, across several models in a turn can lead to some pretty sick alpha strikes. The RFBC also has a lot more options for targets and better range. Lastly, the 1cp stratagem to buff heavy stubbers to strength 5 might be pretty fun with the 3 stubbers on the model.

Salt donkey wrote:
While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.

Out of curiosity what do you tend to use re-rolls on with knights?

 Mushkilla wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:
While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.

Out of curiosity what do you tend to use re-rolls on with knights?

Inv saves, charges, and random shot numbers (if you're running battle cannons or thermo cannons). These are just more important for knights than other armies because re-rolling something for a 400+ point model is more important something that cost 160 or less.

Salt donkey wrote:

Inv saves, charges, and random shot numbers (if you're running battle cannons or thermo cannons). These are just more important for knights than other armies because re-rolling something for a 400+ point model is more important something that cost 160 or less.

I guess you would mitigate the random number of shots by taking fixed shot weapons and use gaze of fate for the rest (only works on your turn) so would cover wound damage and charge rolls (the things I tend to re-roll). So you would lose re-roll invulnerable saves which personally I only consider re-rolling if I've already rotate ion shields to make it a 4++. Seems manageable.

I'm not suggest this is game breaking or anything just a different take.

<delete>

 small_gods wrote:
I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.

Ahh yes I did mean the Castellan. The shooty version not the one with the harpoon canon.

I'm tempted to get a second rampager as well. Maybe have a Castellen with 2 rampagers, add some wardogs and whatever else I might be able to cram into a 2k list.