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 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.

Ahh yes I did mean the Castellan. The shooty version not the one with the harpoon canon.

I'm tempted to get a second rampager as well. Maybe have a Castellen with 2 rampagers, add some wardogs and whatever else I might be able to cram into a 2k list.

Ah if I was taking a Castellan I'd just concentrate on making him as tough as possible. 4++ relic, 5+++ against psychic warlord trait, vow of dominance and the ignore -1ap dreadblade pact. Then you're going to be a pain to remove and can keep on shooting!

Just checked my Codex. Now I get why my points were out!

Stat bonus on a CC Despoiler are a stat tax.

Might be worth keeping an eye out for that on lists, as I suspect peeps could easily get it wrong. As I did.

played my list (previously posted) against a tau, maelstrom (disruptive singnals) search and destroy deploy. I got 1st turn
won 13-7, very close game where we both draw good cards, i managed to kill one of ions Tide 1st turn, he was set bit too much anti infantry, so had problems handle all those r6+ ta 2+/3+ multi wound targets, but good cards keept him into the match.

So I had a game yesterday against genesteler cult where I got to try diabolic rift combined with Daemonic possession. It did 5 wound to a patriarch and made it too risky for it to cast its second power (from its familiar). However, despite the damage it didn't really do much, it didn't prevent the power that mattered going off, not really worth 3CP. I still think it might have value against low wound/damage psykers or psychic units, or against an army that wants to cast a lot of powers at you (it definitely works better against psykers who want to cast multiple powers as they will take more damage). In hindsight, I'd probably not use Daemonic possession on the first attempted power against 5-6 wound psykers as you have very little chance of killing it, instead save the CP and use the threat of it to prevent them casting anymore powers with that psyker. You also get a bit of a paradox, where if you try to deny the power you prevent the perils...

Thinking of running this as a experiment to see how viable twin melta cannons arms are, and relying on combat for the majority of the anti horde.


++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [110 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

Detachment CP [6CP]

+ Lord of War +

Knight Desecrator [23 PL, 422pts]: 3. Knight Diabolus, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, The Diamonas, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 425pts]: Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Meltagun, Thermal cannon, Thermal cannon

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 417pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal cannon, Thermal cannon, Twin Icarus Autocannon

Knight Rampager [19 PL, 387pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Reaper chainsword, The Gauntlet of Ascension, The Gauntlet of Ascension

War Dogs [18 PL, 348pts]
. War Dog: Iconoclast Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
. War Dog: Iconoclast Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

Have the war dogs and desacrator move together as a death star, the rampager is to YOLO into combat ASAP and the two despoilers to cover mid field to jump on objectives if needed and to anti everything with their guns.

no reasons to run double thermal cannons IK when you can run a double gatling with innfernal household and have a galing str7 d3 far more reliable and versatile than thermal cannon, and you alreday have 2 thermal spears, gatling is pretty more useful against anything.

 blackmage wrote:
no reasons to run double thermal cannons IK when you can run a double gatling with innfernal household and have a galing str7 d3 far more reliable and versatile than thermal cannon.

Not exactly true, the double gattling costs more (almost 100 pts) and only one of those is str 7, the other is str 6.

Also if you are not running infernal thats not an option.


When I first opened the book i instantly went to infernal thinking it was the faction to be in (that and i like the idea of demonic knights) but after spending time with it iconoclass looks better to me. A double inferno with the beastslayer vow is going to be a serious threat to anything with armor. A double gattling with carnage is going to mulch hoard armies appart. And the vow of dominance is good on almost anything, like a cc knight running forwards.

Just my 2 cents.

I think mixing weapons is the way to go, just because you can run double gatling cannon or double thermal doesn't mean you should. I think thermal, stormspear, avenger gatling is the way to go.

If you only run double gatling and run into knights you're in trouble. If you run double thermal and run into orks then you're trouble. If you run both you yave a decent chance each way.

with d6 hits you have no chances at all, playtest guys dont just read and got to conclusions, thermal has same issue had before, and how many double thermal Ik's you seen in competitive?

Thats another point to iconoclass. The double gattling vs knights with reroll failed wounds thanks to the vow will do work. A double thermal with carnage vow can still rack up the kills. And getting 3 additional attacks on the charge with ap-3 feet is pretty nice being able to pick your vows once you see your opponents list is very good tactically.

 blackmage wrote:
with d6 hits you have no chances at all, playtest guys dont just read and got to conclusions, thermal has same issue had before, and how many double thermal Ik's you seen in competitive?

I have play tested double agc, it's great until you run into triptide, knights, eldar flyers etc. I'd swap 12 str 6 shots for 3+d6 high strength shots. With the points increase on agc and decrease on thermal they're the same price.

i won yesterday against a triple riptide list with a double gatling IK, when Tau has 12+ shield drones good luck chew trough them with thermal cannons. Anyway each their own
Against Tau the problem is delete shield drones until it has drones hardly you put any damage on battlesuits.
PS: eldar flyers are chewed alive by gatling, hit on 3+ rerolling, no minus to hit and you wound at 3 with WoW you re roll 1's and deal 3 damage, you can rip apart 2 crimson hunters/hemlocks with 1 single gatling IK with average dice

Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge

 blackmage wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge

While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?

 blackmage wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge

How do you get reroll 1s to wound on an infernal knight?

 blackmage wrote:
i won yesterday against a triple riptide list with a double gatling IK, when Tau has 12+ shield drones good luck chew trough them with thermal cannons. Anyway each their own
Against Tau the problem is delete shield drones until it has drones hardly you put any damage on battlesuits.
PS: eldar flyers are chewed alive by gatling, hit on 3+ rerolling, no minus to hit and you wound at 3 with WoW you re roll 1's and deal 3 damage, you can rip apart 2 crimson hunters/hemlocks with 1 single gatling IK with average dice

I don't understand what combo you're talking about? Infernal lets you boost up ONE weapon to str 7 3 . You can't reroll wounds with vow of the beastslayer on an infernal knight. And even if that were the case you definitely can't rip down 2 CHE a turn. That's much less likely than doing the same with dual termal and stormspear.

12 shots, 8/9 hit, 3+ to wound, 5++ invul. Around 14 wounds for the one boosted infernal agv. Around 5 wounds for the non boosted one.

Been reading through this thread with interest, some pretty experienced Knight pilots in this chat.

So I have a Death Guard army, and I've been invited to take part in a narrative campaign. I wanted to add something new to my Army to use in the narrative campaign. So I bought the new Chaos Knight...it's an awesome model. Can someone tell me of some tactics or synergies I can try with my Death Guard and the new Knight? I'm magnetizing him, so I can run him as a Desecrator or a Rampager

Thanks everyone

 Freeflow44 wrote:
Been reading through this thread with interest, some pretty experienced Knight pilots in this chat.

So I have a Death Guard army, and I've been invited to take part in a narrative campaign. I wanted to add something new to my Army to use in the narrative campaign. So I bought the new Chaos Knight...it's an awesome model. Can someone tell me of some tactics or synergies I can try with my Death Guard and the new Knight? I'm magnetizing him, so I can run him as a Desecrator or a Rampager

Thanks everyone

Sure! But first we need to know what else you have in your army.

It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?

Let me start with; I think the dual thermal cannon are a nice cheap option that gives you a pretty solid anti tank option. So if you are running a knight specifically to perform that roll then great.

The reason I personally prefer the avengers, is that they perform well enough against most vehicles and flyers, they are less effective against T8 but if you take a storm spear a double avenger knight will still on average destroy a leman russ in a single round of shooting.

The big difference for me though, is melee with knights is not good anti horde. Why? Because if you don't have avengers you can't clear screens and if you can't clear screens then you are charging screens which means getting counter charged by things that knights don't want to be fighting second against. Knights are good in melee, but the lack of invulnerable save means that they can only really take on melee specialists if the knight gets the charge and can fight first.

Not only are avengers fantastic at clearing screens, they are also great at killing cheap scoring units. Again knights with their low model count really struggle against armies that have enough units to reliably swamp objectives.

This highlights another problem with relying on melee for clearing hordes/screens/scoring units is that it often leaves your knights in a less valuable board position. Knights as an army want to control the center of the table where they can use their speed and range to threaten a large amount of the board. Avengers allow you to clear units off objectives without sacrificing board position. Not to mention how hard it can be to actually get into melee with a knight on a board with reasonable terrain against infantry units who can move through walls. Or hide on the first floor of a ruin.

This is personally why I've been having more success with chaos knights than their imperial cousins. Dual avengers lets me play the mission much better. But that's just my take.

 Freeflow44 wrote:
It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.

Sounds fun!

If they're bringing a ton of superheavies you'll want to use an iconoclast rampager. You can give him Vow of Dominance pregame so all those volcano lances are only wounding on 4+. If you make him a dreadblade you can also give him the pact that rerolls all hits vs. Titanic and Characters to save some CP.

If you have any wardogs (armigers) that would make it more useful again because you can get the iconoclast trait with a full super heavy detachment which gives you more attacks (so at least 18 stomps hitting on 2+) and might make them loose a model or two more to morale.

Finally you can't go wrong with extra relics and warlord traits. More likely +1 attack and the slanesh relic (for a bit of extra movement) would be useful

 Mushkilla wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?

Let me start with; I think the dual thermal cannon are a nice cheap option that gives you a pretty solid anti tank option. So if you are running a knight specifically to perform that roll then great.

The reason I personally prefer the avengers, is that they perform well enough against most vehicles and flyers, they are less effective against T8 but if you take a storm spear a double avenger knight will still on average destroy a leman russ in a single round of shooting.

The big difference for me though, is melee with knights is not good anti horde. Why? Because if you don't have avengers you can't clear screens and if you can't clear screens then you are charging screens which means getting counter charged by things that knights don't want to be fighting second against. Knights are good in melee, but the lack of invulnerable save means that they can only really take on melee specialists if the knight gets the charge and can fight first.

Not only are avengers fantastic at clearing screens, they are also great at killing cheap scoring units. Again knights with their low model count really struggle against armies that have enough units to reliably swamp objectives.

This highlights another problem with relying on melee for clearing hordes/screens/scoring units is that it often leaves your knights in a less valuable board position. Knights as an army want to control the center of the table where they can use their speed and range to threaten a large amount of the board. Avengers allow you to clear units off objectives without sacrificing board position. Not to mention how hard it can be to actually get into melee with a knight on a board with reasonable terrain against infantry units who can move through walls. Or hide on the first floor of a ruin.

This personally why I've been having more success with chaos knights than their imperial cousins. Dual avengers lets me play the mission much better. But that's just my take.

Never thought of it that way, I'll have to keep that info in mind if I'm up against an army that screens well or has dedicated anti armour melee

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 small_gods wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:
It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.

Sounds fun!

If they're bringing a ton of superheavies you'll want to use an iconoclast rampager. You can give him Vow of Dominance pregame so all those volcano lances are only wounding on 4+. If you make him a dreadblade you can also give him the pact that rerolls all hits vs. Titanic and Characters to save some CP.

If you have any wardogs (armigers) that would make it more useful again because you can get the iconoclast trait with a full super heavy detachment which gives you more attacks (so at least 18 stomps hitting on 2+) and might make them loose a model or two more to morale.

Finally you can't go wrong with extra relics and warlord traits. More likely +1 attack and the slanesh relic (for a bit of extra movement) would be useful

Thanks for the advice! Currently, I use my Poxwalkers as screening units to tie up vehicles while I close the gap with the PBC and Bloat drones, then I melt everything with Spitters. You think the same could work for the Knight? Poxwalkers, Nurglings and Plague Bearers screening and tieing up tanks until the Rampager can get in range and start charging the tanks? I'm not really worried about the Vostroyan Infantry, the Death Guard are very good at killing inexpensive troops

 Dr. Mills wrote:

Never thought of it that way, I'll have to keep that info in mind if I'm up against an army that screens well or has dedicated anti armour melee

To be fair my meta is infantry heavy, even the triple tide lists will run 40+ fire warriors.

It also applies to anti armour units that are infantry based: bladed cog neophytes with mining lasers, hellblasters, Ork lootas. These sort of units can hide behind screens of infantry and if you really on melee for your anti infantry you will struggle to engage them before they take you out, not to mention you have to close in on them rather than outranging them (matters more against short range anti tank). Getting close to things can be a very risky tactical proposition for knights.

I forgot to mention the two heavy flamers. These are great for clearing even more infantry but also for finishing off those units that have been whittled down to a single model. You don't necessarily want to waste an avenger or your charge on a single marine, but if you don't kill him he can still score/deny you an objective (thanks to objective secure and our lack of objective secure). The two heavy flamers are great for reliably finishing off these sorts of units.

Finally, the twin avengers with flamers make your over watch a lot more intimidating. You can easily kill a character charging you, or glass cannon melee units. Even against the stronger melee threats it tends to at least do some damage and as a result reduce the damage you will take from the charging unit. This goes back to knights being good in melee on the charge and vulnerable when charged.

There's an old 40k quote that says:

Despise infantry if you must. Crush them underfoot, by all means. But do not ignore them. Battlefields are littered with the wreckage of Titans whose crews ignored infantry.

if you build a list for tournament you cant tailor it for a specific opponent, often i think many people here never go to tournaments so they take for granted what they will face, in that case if you know you are going against Ik's for example , of course double thermal+stormspear can be the right choice, but if you attend to tournament and you face 3 hordes (last tournaments i faced 120 orks and about 120 tyr models and about 50 FW+34 drones)? What you do with your thermals? 4/5 orks dead/turn and the other 120? or worse if you face 90/120 plaguebearers? I know ITC meta is different but thank God the rest of the world play GW missions so you must consider it.

Would the relic that lets you ignore all hit modifiers ignore the defiant machine spirit damnation of minus 1 to hit?

odog00138 wrote:
Would the relic that lets you ignore all hit modifiers ignore the defiant machine spirit damnation of minus 1 to hit?

Nice catch. It would indeed ignore the -1 to hit for ranged to hit rolls (the relic only affects ranged weapons).

...
That could NOT be intended XD

The issue though comes back the the fact that it eats away in the super valuable relic department. they are too good to give up.

And as always, I just can't seem to give up the melee ability for dual-wielding. feet are not enough when the enemy throws his own knights on you. and so much of the chaos knight rules are geared towards getting into melee or making melee deadlier.

 BoomWolf wrote:
...
And as always, I just can't seem to give up the melee ability for dual-wielding. feet are not enough when the enemy throws his own knights on you. and so much of the chaos knight rules are geared towards getting into melee or making melee deadlier.

With summoning it's easy to move block melee. Just summon 10 brimstones for 30pts. The biggest downside of summoning is not being able to move (again one of the reasons I like double range weapon knights).

For me the combination of our relics/warlord traits/vows/dreadblade pacts/summoning makes this army such a toolbox. Which pushes me to our most generalist despoiler build (twin avenger), as I get the rest of the flexibility from our toolbox. Having points left for summoning is a really important part of that.

As for our codex making melee deadlier, sure there are some pretty strong melee options in our codex. But they boost our shooting knights just as much as our melee knights (all knights are melee knights in my eyes).

Again just my take on things. Not suggesting melee/hybrid knights are terrible or anything.