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err, I think you should compare a double Thermal cannon despoiler to the cost of a rampager or a melee despoiler. The difference is really not that much.

Assuming no carapace weapons at all (because they all cost the same).

A Rampager costs 387 points.
A Despoiler with guantlet and chainsword costs 372 points.
A Despoiler with double Thermal cannon cost 397 points.

So the difference between a double thermal loadout vs guantlet and chainsword loadout is just 25 points. But for that 25 more points, you are getting two thermal cannons. I honestly can't see any other way an increase in 25 points is going to get you an extra 2d6 Str 9 d6 damage shots.

For 75 more points, your triple melee despoiler suddenly now become triple thermal despoilers. The increase in ranged firepower for just an increase is 75 points is amazing. Of course, you could argue for battle cannon and avenger loadouts too, but those are obviously a lot more expensive.

I am just saying that in most situations, for just 25 more points, a double thermal cannon despoiler will be better than a melee despoiler. And its still under 400 points.

 small_gods wrote:
It's mainly a points consideration that thermal allows you to buy a stormspear for (virtually) the same points of one agc. And 45 points is a lot per weapon. If you're running 3 dual agc knights that's 270 points that's a daemon battalion with 9 nurglings and 2 bloodmasters. So 5cp, so useful utility and 44 wounds.

Not to say thermal is the best weapon in the game by any stretch and agc definately benifits from infernal trait more. But one agc benifits as much as two.

The inly argument I can see is for vow of carnage.

Not sure where you are getting 270 points from, in your example you are running three knights with thermal cannon, avenger and stormspear right? 3 double avenger storm spear knights are 132pts more expensive (44 points X 3) not 270...

I agree depending on your list those 132pts might be better spent elsewhere. I agree that infernal doesn't benefit two avengers more than a single avenger other than giving you enough of a boost against vehicles that taking a thermal cannon is less necessary.

My experience with imperial knights running three crusaders in the configuration you described is that I really struggled against infantry heavy lists. That's really the crux of my argument. Dual avengers means I don't struggle against those lists whilst at the same time it's effective enough against armoured targets that I find I don't struggle against lists with lots of tough targets. I haven't found anything better to spend those 132pts on to do this.

The other thing for me is variance. The thermal cannon is a high variance weapon making it unreliable. This is very noticeable when targeting things with only 2-3wounds left. I'd never fire a single thermal cannon into a target with 2 wounds left that I had to kill. But I would fire a single avenger. The avenger is more consistent and as a result lets you split fire more efficiently. On the other hand you can get lucky with the thermal cannon and completely swing a game. The downside of the avenger is you are less likely to get those extreme swings. Again it depends what you want consistency or variance. There isn't a right answer.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
It's mainly a points consideration that thermal allows you to buy a stormspear for (virtually) the same points of one agc. And 45 points is a lot per weapon. If you're running 3 dual agc knights that's 270 points that's a daemon battalion with 9 nurglings and 2 bloodmasters. So 5cp, so useful utility and 44 wounds.

Not to say thermal is the best weapon in the game by any stretch and agc definately benifits from infernal trait more. But one agc benifits as much as two.

The inly argument I can see is for vow of carnage.

Not sure where you are getting 270 points from, in your example you are running three knights with thermal cannon, avenger and stormspear right? 3 double avenger storm spear knights are 132pts more expensive (44 points X 3) not 270...

I agree depending on your list those 132pts might be better spent elsewhere. I agree that infernal doesn't benefit two avengers more than a single avenger other than giving you enough of a boost against vehicles that taking a thermal cannon is less necessary.

My experience with imperial knights running three crusaders in the configuration you described is that I really struggled against infantry heavy lists. That's really the crux of my argument. Dual avengers means I don't struggle against those lists whilst at the same time it's effective enough against armoured targets that I find I don't struggle against lists with lots of tough targets. I haven't found anything better to spend those 132pts on to do this.

The other thing for me is variance. The thermal cannon is a high variance weapon making it unreliable. This is very noticeable when targeting things with only 2-3wounds left. I'd never fire a single thermal cannon into a target with 2 wounds left that I had to kill. But I would fire a single avenger. The avenger is more consistent and as a result lets you split fire more efficiently. On the other hand you can get lucky with the thermal cannon and completely swing a game. The downside of the avenger is you are less likely to get those extreme swings. Again it depends what you want consistency or variance. There isn't a right answer.

I understand what you are saying but find knights dealing with hoardes alone not to be a great solution because of the price of their weapons, due to being on a tough chassis.

Take the reaper chaincannon, 8 shots that kill 3.5 boyz, costs 20 points.

Avenger Gatling Cannon 12 shots that kills 5.3 boyz, costs 99 points.

For that 132 you can nearly buy a full squad of reaper chaincannon havocs or 6 combi bolter bikers or 5 combi bolter Terminators. All better at that job for the points. Give them mark of slanesh and play 3cp worth of stratergems and they're killing them by the bucket load. (RCC havocks killing 35 boyz!) Same goes for bloodletter bombs or bezerkers or warptalons.

But you're right there is no definitive answer, just my thoughts

All valid points.

I guess for better or worse I'm not running CSM allies so that's a constraint on my list that leads to a different load out than you. If I start running CSM allies I'll probably change things up a fair bit (death hex alone makes thermal cannons much more interesting).

Honestly, I'm just happy we have enough internal balance that most things in the chaos knight codex seem at least viable (desecrator makes me sad). Having a bunch of viable options is a nice problem to have.

i will play 3 Ik's (all iconoclast or maybe just one infernal) 1 with double agc 1 with agc+rfbc and one full melee, all with ironstorm missiles and a nurgle battalion with 28+28 Pb's 3 nurglings poxbringer and spoilpox, simple clean and effective.

This is what I'm taking to first tournament with knights. I'll try daemons if it doesn't work out, but think having a 1st turn charge from lord discordant and bikers to reliably clear some chaff should be decent. Just waiting on my second missile pod to arrive!

i will try to fit at least a 2nd or 3rd LoD, just swap marines with cultists, you have anyway 15CP at start, for me you get then a good list.

I think if we are fielding 3 big knights, it will essentially be a chaos knight army. Even if we go cheap (3 double thermal knights), its just what we spend on the remaining 600 points (in a 2k army) or 350 points (in a 1750 point army). Those will add flavour, but it will be the knight who win or lose the game.

If its 1 knight with two war dogs, there may be more points to play with. And if its just 1 knight from a superheavy detachment, then it will be to plug the gaps of a Chaos army.

Chaos generally doesn't have as strong shooting as imperium (unless we go forgeworld dreads). So heavy shooty knights are one way to plug that gap. However, in a straight up shooting fight, a chaos castellan is likely less damaging than an imperium one).

Double gun knights do pack a ton of ranged firepower though. So, it is likely here that we will shine. The other way would be two Infernal war dogs and 1 knight.

I think we should see the stronger melee aspects of chaos knight as a bonus rather than a key strategy. Melee has traditionally been at a disadvantage competitively because you need to a delivery mechanism for it, and there are no easy ways to deliver an entire army into melee on turn 1. Plus you then have to worry about bubble wrap and chaff on top of that.

Given that melee knights have increased in points cost for us, ranged knights makes far more sense from a points efficiency perspective. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest running three double thermal cannon knights in place of three melee knights if I wanted to go "melee knights". If you go Iconoclast household. All three knights will have 5 melee attacks anyway, and then you get 6 thermal cannons on top of that. Round up the remaining 600 points with objective grabbers, and chaff clearing units. The 3 thermal knights can shoot out any heavy support that threatens T8. After that is taken out, they can then go to town in combat and shooting the rest of the army.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Spoiler:

I think if we are fielding 3 big knights, it will essentially be a chaos knight army. Even if we go cheap (3 double thermal knights), its just what we spend on the remaining 600 points (in a 2k army) or 350 points (in a 1750 point army). Those will add flavour, but it will be the knight who win or lose the game.

If its 1 knight with two war dogs, there may be more points to play with. And if its just 1 knight from a superheavy detachment, then it will be to plug the gaps of a Chaos army.

Chaos generally doesn't have as strong shooting as imperium (unless we go forgeworld dreads). So heavy shooty knights are one way to plug that gap. However, in a straight up shooting fight, a chaos castellan is likely less damaging than an imperium one).

Double gun knights do pack a ton of ranged firepower though. So, it is likely here that we will shine. The other way would be two Infernal war dogs and 1 knight.

I think we should see the stronger melee aspects of chaos knight as a bonus rather than a key strategy. Melee has traditionally been at a disadvantage competitively because you need to a delivery mechanism for it, and there are no easy ways to deliver an entire army into melee on turn 1. Plus you then have to worry about bubble wrap and chaff on top of that.

Given that melee knights have increased in points cost for us, ranged knights makes far more sense from a points efficiency perspective. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest running three double thermal cannon knights in place of three melee knights if I wanted to go "melee knights". If you go Iconoclast household. All three knights will have 5 melee attacks anyway, and then you get 6 thermal cannons on top of that. Round up the remaining 600 points with objective grabbers, and chaff clearing units. The 3 thermal knights can shoot out any heavy support that threatens T8. After that is taken out, they can then go to town in combat and shooting the rest of the army.

There's definately a good case for being able to hit all the targets you want rather than being choked up on screening units. I think the mele damage of the extra attacks hitting on 2+ is close to comparable to having 2d6 thermal shots but if you have the cp to throw at trail of destruction on one of thise iconoclast therma knights then the gap is even closer!

Three double thermal with ionstorm still leaves you with 761 points enough for 2 daemon battalions or red cosair LDs and 3x5 csm and some change!

Rate my list my dudes


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 4CP, 818pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Huron Blackheart [6 PL, 1CP, 105pts]: Prescience, Reaver Lord, Warlord

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [68 PL, -2CP, 1,181pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

Tyrannical Court [-1CP]: One model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 372pts]: Character (Traitoris Lance), Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

++ Total: [114 PL, 2CP, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Interestingly, the one way I can think of for a high impact turn 1 melee knight army would be the following:

Have one melee despoiler. Then have a Lord of Skulls along with a sorceror with warptime, maybe throw in a Lord Discordant with the souforged pack warlord trait.

Turn 1, the melee knight move advances and use the strategem full tilt, maybe give him some additional strategem or such that further increases his movement and advance. The Lord of skulls also moves up and then gets a second move with warp time. Use demon forge to shoot all its guns before charging. The Lord Discordant and whatever buddies he has also charges up, and there is a strategem that also allows him to advance and charge.

Turn 1, you could be looking at the opponent being charged by a Melee despoiler, a Lord of skulls, and a Lord Discordant at the minimum. over 1200 points of very hard hitting stuff straight down the throat on turn 1. Its a very hard hitting turn 1 punch.

However, as with all melee armies. You will still have to deal with melee blockers, and bubble wrap chaff. So, you will have to round it up with chain cannon wielding CSM or other chaff clearing units.

Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.

I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Ah-I don't know my Renegade Strats that well.

Thanks for the tip!

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?

 small_gods wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?

AFB, but I don't think so.

Thinking I could move my bikes over for 1 cp always good to have in the pocket for playing tau clustered round a ruin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?

AFB, but I don't think so.

I think if I take it on it's own I wouldn't get access to it. But if I take a full csm detachment in addition(which I plan on doing) I would unlock csm stratergems and be able to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also gain their legion trait so I would have a chance of regaining CP by killing chaff with the bikes!

Azuza001 wrote:
Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.

Yup, great minds think alike! I came up with such a list (kinda). Posted it on the CSM tactics thread.

 small_gods wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?

No, you won’t. It is a bit tricky to implement in a full chaos knight list.
My teammate is going to test triple knights with proper csm detachment with broken legion: noise marines (alpha i suppose, or emperor children to save points on troops), two troops fillers, lord (same as noise), sorc, helddrake (crimson).

Another take is to get large biker squad and warptime them after advance. But less reliable than a drake.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.

Yup, great minds think alike! I came up with such a list (kinda). Posted it on the CSM tactics thread.

That relies on the baleflamer pulling it's weight.
How likely is that supposed to be?

I rekon not very.

 Fan67 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.

I'm confused how these two statements interact.

Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.

Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?

No, you won’t. It is a bit tricky to implement in a full chaos knight list.
My teammate is going to test triple knights with proper csm detachment with broken legion: noise marines (alpha i suppose, or emperor children to save points on troops), two troops fillers, lord (same as noise), sorc, helddrake (crimson).

Another take is to get large biker squad and warptime them after advance. But less reliable than a drake.

I'm taking Huron a Lord Discordant and 3x 5 csm in a cosairs detachment and the bikes in an auxiliary detachment. So I have the choice of warptiming the bikes if opponent is clustered round terrain or lord discordant if I want a 1st turn charge.

Drake would be simpler but they're always so underwhelming. Suppose I coild buy a hell talon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New FW knight stats today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/07/25/more-knights-more-awesome-new-faq-and-update-now-livegw-homepage-post-2/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kknightsfaq250719

Liking the new look castigator!

Also FAQ is out. And yes you can have double dreadblade pacts with the relic.

Any idea on when the new armigers will be released?

<edit>

Heafstaag wrote:
Any idea on when the new armigers will be released?

There's been handfuls of the Moirax available at the last few events so it shouldn't be too long - hopefully their rules getting released is a good sign!

EDIT: WarCom article actually says pre-order tomorrow!

I don't know, but I feel that aside from the moirax data sheet they made the FW knights more underwhelming by stripping out special rules from them.

Excellent to hear! I have Imperial and Chaos knights (just a few of each and they mostly sit on my shelf), and I'm looking to grab eventually at least 3 of those moirax armigers for both factions!

Very neat!

As to some gameplay with the new chaos knight codex:

Holy crap! I'm sure its no news to anyone, but Iconoclast rampagers are absolutely fantastic. Played a game last knight where one was able to get into combat with a duel avenger gatling cannon knight and absolutely wrecked it!

It then proceeded to wipe out a unit of 3 obliterators in one round of combat. 7 attacks with the chainsword, with 6s generating more!

Rampagers are deadly. I had a dual battlecannon knight that was soaking the enemies fire for the first 2 rounds which allowed the rampagers (2) and choppy armigers to move forward and engage at will. Absolutely glorious!

Dracarys wrote:
I don't know, but I feel that aside from the moirax data sheet they made the FW knights more underwhelming by stripping out special rules from them.

Agree.

Infernal Casigator anyone? 16 S7 AP-2 3 damage shots? The sword got buffed too as a small bonus.