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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Apple Peel wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
I friggin' love krak grenades. I end up getting more wounds out of them than anything else, lol. And they always seem to surprise people as if they've never seen them.


The thing about Krak grenades that annoys me is that they're better than the bolt rifle against a lot of targets, but not the T7 sweet spot where most of the tanks are sitting.

Ehh - primaris rarely have a situation where 1 krak is better than 2 bolts. Its only for the 1 for 1 situation which happens even more rarely due to bolter disc.

Meanwhile a Scion squad uses Grenadiers and throws ten kraks.


Six inches....ain't no one satisfied by that range....
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Krak grenades should really be S7, then they would at least be consistently better at wounding vehicles than bolts are.

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 fraser1191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
I friggin' love krak grenades. I end up getting more wounds out of them than anything else, lol. And they always seem to surprise people as if they've never seen them.


The thing about Krak grenades that annoys me is that they're better than the bolt rifle against a lot of targets, but not the T7 sweet spot where most of the tanks are sitting.

Ehh - primaris rarely have a situation where 1 krak is better than 2 bolts. Its only for the 1 for 1 situation which happens even more rarely due to bolter disc.


Wouldn't plague marines be the prime target for a krak grenade? S6, multiple damage

I've literally never faced a plague marine. I face custodians a lot. However - I'm never moving at them so...2 shots is better than 1. ESP with -1 to hit banner....

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Kraks are better against T3-T6 and T8-T11 multi-wound targets. That's actually quite a range in theory. In practice there aren't a lot of T4- multi-wound targets and a lot of armor is clustered at T7.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
Krak grenades should really be S7, then they would at least be consistently better at wounding vehicles than bolts are.

That's a reasonable point.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Stux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
I friggin' love krak grenades. I end up getting more wounds out of them than anything else, lol. And they always seem to surprise people as if they've never seen them.


The thing about Krak grenades that annoys me is that they're better than the bolt rifle against a lot of targets, but not the T7 sweet spot where most of the tanks are sitting.

Ehh - primaris rarely have a situation where 1 krak is better than 2 bolts. Its only for the 1 for 1 situation which happens even more rarely due to bolter disc.


Agreed, grenades are fairly pointless for Intercessors. The situations it makes sense to use them are very niche.

If we could rapid fire them....that might be cool.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I'd settle for 2 launchers per 5 man instead
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd settle for 2 launchers per 5 man instead


They'd need a special rule to let the unit throw more than one grenade per turn for that to mean anything.

   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






The Newman wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd settle for 2 launchers per 5 man instead


They'd need a special rule to let the unit throw more than one grenade per turn for that to mean anything.


Maybe that's what this new rule is, nade spam to win!
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




If you keep it one man per squad, and all they can do is a nade, you can make the nade OP and it doesn't unbalance anything.

Hell:

Frag: 3d3 hits, S4, d1: Range 8"
Krak: 1d3 hits, S7, D3 Range 8"
Melta: 1 hit, S9, D6 Range 3"

If each 6" represents about 50 meters, then I think 6" is fair for every non-astartes throwing one. Otherwise, Astartes get an extra 2", and Primaris get 30" with the launcher.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
I friggin' love krak grenades. I end up getting more wounds out of them than anything else, lol. And they always seem to surprise people as if they've never seen them.


The thing about Krak grenades that annoys me is that they're better than the bolt rifle against a lot of targets, but not the T7 sweet spot where most of the tanks are sitting.

Ehh - primaris rarely have a situation where 1 krak is better than 2 bolts. Its only for the 1 for 1 situation which happens even more rarely due to bolter disc.


Agreed, grenades are fairly pointless for Intercessors. The situations it makes sense to use them are very niche.

If we could rapid fire them....that might be cool.


I think you should be able to throw a single grenade for the whole unit in addition to shooting normal weapons. You don't sacrifice anything, it's a nice bonus for getting within 6".

Then Intercessors would have the added bonus of that single 30" range grenade without losing any bolts. Would probably have to put a few points back on the launcher though.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






The Newman wrote:
Kraks are better against T3-T6 and T8-T11 multi-wound targets. That's actually quite a range in theory. In practice there aren't a lot of T4- multi-wound targets and a lot of armor is clustered at T7.
More shots is almost always better except in very nitch situations...basically t5. Even if you are getting a little better odds on a krak it's still practically better because you average more hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If you keep it one man per squad, and all they can do is a nade, you can make the nade OP and it doesn't unbalance anything.

Hell:

Frag: 3d3 hits, S4, d1: Range 8"
Krak: 1d3 hits, S7, D3 Range 8"
Melta: 1 hit, S9, D6 Range 3"

If each 6" represents about 50 meters, then I think 6" is fair for every non-astartes throwing one. Otherwise, Astartes get an extra 2", and Primaris get 30" with the launcher.
Good ideas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 20:20:44


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Is it too wild to propose the melta bomb to be a flat 6 Damage? Seems like the ultimate risk/reward for tacticals
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 fraser1191 wrote:
Is it too wild to propose the melta bomb to be a flat 6 Damage? Seems like the ultimate risk/reward for tacticals


Six is a LOT. But it should at least be 2d6 pick the highest.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 Insectum7 wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Is it too wild to propose the melta bomb to be a flat 6 Damage? Seems like the ultimate risk/reward for tacticals


Six is a LOT. But it should at least be 2d6 pick the highest.


Yeah that's what I was thinking. But at the same time they can't be used in melee. So turn 1 no way to use it (except for the more odd deployments), turn 2 possibly, but no deepstrike and bomb something till min turn 3. So it's basically a mid game weapon where you get at most 3 uses where invulns could just block it.
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Stux wrote:I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


You had me at Reivers.

Martel732 wrote:I think thunder hammers on infantry is stupid and unnecessary. I dont care how long its been.


You make Captain Titus of the Ultramarines sad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 22:34:22


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I assure you I could do better than the idiots at GW. Your sideways insults notwithstanding.
Great! When will they receive your job application?

Tell us when they give you the offer! We can hold a celebration!

Pretty sure GW is run a lot like a university at the top. A bunch of people who fell into an extremely successful business and aren't equal to the required tasks ahead of them and can't be replaced - like tenure. It's their baby - I can't take it from them. I can for sure point out the fact that they are failing their way into big profits right now.

Kind of like Tim Tebow when he had a big run with Denver. People looked at his stats and realized he was maybe the worst QB to ever play in pro football and win that many games. The next year he didn't even have a job after a winning record and a playoff run. Cause in a competitive sport you can't afford to not make changes because you are winning more than you are losing. GW doesn't really have any competition. The have utter market dominance due to sheer lack of faith in this community that any other game could ever challenge 40k. The end is near though. 3d printers are going to destroy this industry.


Lol what a negative rant. I'd like to see you produce a better set of rules with as much unit variety.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It would be pretty easy really. The bar is rather low.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Stux wrote:I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


You had me at Reivers.

Martel732 wrote:I think thunder hammers on infantry is stupid and unnecessary. I dont care how long its been.


You make Captain Titus of the Ultramarines sad.


The sadder the better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 23:30:00


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Ishagu wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I assure you I could do better than the idiots at GW. Your sideways insults notwithstanding.
Great! When will they receive your job application?

Tell us when they give you the offer! We can hold a celebration!

Pretty sure GW is run a lot like a university at the top. A bunch of people who fell into an extremely successful business and aren't equal to the required tasks ahead of them and can't be replaced - like tenure. It's their baby - I can't take it from them. I can for sure point out the fact that they are failing their way into big profits right now.

Kind of like Tim Tebow when he had a big run with Denver. People looked at his stats and realized he was maybe the worst QB to ever play in pro football and win that many games. The next year he didn't even have a job after a winning record and a playoff run. Cause in a competitive sport you can't afford to not make changes because you are winning more than you are losing. GW doesn't really have any competition. The have utter market dominance due to sheer lack of faith in this community that any other game could ever challenge 40k. The end is near though. 3d printers are going to destroy this industry.


Lol what a negative rant. I'd like to see you produce a better set of rules with as much unit variety.
Negative maybe. I like the term realistic. Really - it would be easy to make a better rule set and better balanced units. Like martel says - the bar is really low. I wouldn't call it a rant ether. It is likely exactly the reason the game has had such poor rules for such a long time.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Then do it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Stux wrote:I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


You had me at Reivers.

Martel732 wrote:I think thunder hammers on infantry is stupid and unnecessary. I dont care how long its been.


You make Captain Titus of the Ultramarines sad.

Titus wasn't 1 shotting titans. Slaughtering hordes of orks and killing maybe 30 CSM in typically 1v1 and 1v2 combat is pretty reasonable. Plus if you make a mistake against a nob you get 1 shot by it. Also - if jump packs were as good as there were in "Space Marine" I don't think ASM would be avoided like the plague.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did do it. I covered nearly all the changes I'd make to codex space marines in a post a while back. What does it matter? Is anyone going to play by my rules? Nope. It is a complete was of time. I offer plenty of suggestions in the hope that maybe someone at GW will see it. Considering GW thinks the game is in "a good place" when it is clearly terrible wilth obvious problems like an infatry and a conscript costingf 4 points while a cultist is now 5 points and probably worse than a conscript....it is clearly not in a good place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 00:56:11


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Kraks are better against T3-T6 and T8-T11 multi-wound targets. That's actually quite a range in theory. In practice there aren't a lot of T4- multi-wound targets and a lot of armor is clustered at T7.
More shots is almost always better except in very nitch situations...basically t5. Even if you are getting a little better odds on a krak it's still practically better because you average more hits.


You are mistaken. All other things being equal a Heavy 1, Dd6 is mathematically identical to a Heavy d6, D1 provided you're shooting at something with more than one wound, and multi-wound targets are hardly a niche situation. The reason multi-shot weapons are considered better is that most of them are not over-paying for a high AP that they won't get to use on account of all the invuln saves and because you won't always have a target with more than one wound. More shots is better on average, but not due to any inherent mathematical advantage when calculating expected damage.

The average damage of any given weapon on any given target is [to-hit %] x [average shots] x [to-wound %] x [failed save %] x [average damage]. It doesn't matter what order those are in if the numbers are the same (basic transitive property) so if your math is saying a Heavy 1, Dd6 does less average damage than a Heavy d6, D1 with the other stats being equal then you've done something wrong. Since a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots, 1 damage and a Krak grenade is 1 shot, 2 damage average with the same AP then the only number that matters for average damage over time is the to-wound %, and I shouldn't have to spell out how an S4 and an S6 compare on that front to anyone here.

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Im talking strictly with the krak vs 2 bolt shots scenario.
t4 the bolt is better even against multi wounds t5 the krak is better - t6 the bolts are better even though the average is about the same. t7 it's obvious the bolt is better.T8 krak is better. If you get to reroll wounds which I often am though. Bolts are always better.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
Im talking strictly with the krak vs 2 bolt shots scenario.
t4 the bolt is better even against multi wounds t5 the krak is better - t6 the bolts are better even though the average is about the same. t7 it's obvious the bolt is better.T8 krak is better. If you get to reroll wounds which I often am though. Bolts are always better.


Assuming the models are mutliwound...

T4 3+

2 bolt shots
4/3 hits
2/3 wounds
1/3 unsaved
1/3 damage


1 Krak shot
2/3 hits
4/9 wounds
2/9 unsaved
4/9 damage


Krak is better.

T6 3+

2 bolt shots
4/3 hit
4/9 wound
2/9 unsaved
2/9 damage

1 Krak shot
2/3 hit
1/3 wound
1/6 unsaved
1/3 damage

Krak is better.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo






A wise man once said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free."
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:


A wise man once said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free."
So I assume you're a successful wargame creator elsewhere?

I won't say GW has great rules-they don't. But making a wargame is a hell of a lot harder than some people here seem to think.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Martel732 wrote:


A wise man once said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free."


no one ever said you should do it for free. if you're sooo good at game design, put your money where your mouth is, design a game and publish it. it's easy eneugh to publish with digital distribution etc.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Forgive me. I do the calculations based on which is more likely to do at least one 1 damage with low % shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


A wise man once said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free."


no one ever said you should do it for free. if you're sooo good at game design, put your money where your mouth is, design a game and publish it. it's easy eneugh to publish with digital distribution etc.
Even if we made a better rule set...you think it would catch on? If the answer is no - it is a waste of time. If GW paid me to do it I would.
Vs t4 with 2 shots wounding on 4s and 1 shot wounding on 3s you probability is identical to deal a wound. Plus there is a save also. So the opertunity to deal 2 wounds with a krak cant do. Your chance to do 1 wound is higher.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/18 01:50:41


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
Forgive me. I do the calculations based on which is more likely to do at least one 1 damage with low % shots.
You really should clarify that. And what's the point of that calculation?

Krak Grenades vs T4 3+ have a 2/9 chance of doing a wound (at d3 damage). At T6 3+, it decreases to 1/6.
Percent values are 22.22% and 16.67%.

Bolt Rifles with two shots vs T4 3+ have a 30.56% and against T6 3+ have a 20.99%.

Minor improvements, but again-the d3 damage means that Krak performs better against almost any multiwound target. If you're firing at regular MEQs, then yeah, Bolt Rifles do better, but PMEQs suffer more from Kraking.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Forgive me. I do the calculations based on which is more likely to do at least one 1 damage with low % shots.
You really should clarify that. And what's the point of that calculation?

Krak Grenades vs T4 3+ have a 2/9 chance of doing a wound (at d3 damage). At T6 3+, it decreases to 1/6.
Percent values are 22.22% and 16.67%.

Bolt Rifles with two shots vs T4 3+ have a 30.56% and against T6 3+ have a 20.99%.

Minor improvements, but again-the d3 damage means that Krak performs better against almost any multiwound target. If you're firing at regular MEQs, then yeah, Bolt Rifles do better, but PMEQs suffer more from Kraking.
It performs better just about as often as it performs the same or worse - so less time wasted making a sperate roll with some upside in the rare situation where you get 2 bolt wounds compared to a krak wound that just deals 1 damage on a bad roll. Ill go with 2 shots. Also - apologies I should have clarified that. Before bolter disc the krak laucher was actually pretty cool. Now that its there - it has become even more niche which was my point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/18 01:56:52


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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